Why Build A Streetcar in Jacksonville?

[thelakelander]

Ock, great points regarding the turnstiles.  I normally have to jump them as well.  It seems like one of the first things that need to be done is to fix all turnstiles at all stations.

[Doctor_K]

Ock, great points regarding the turnstiles.  I normally have to jump them as well.  It seems like one of the first things that need to be done is to fix all turnstiles at all stations.

I encourage everyone to go to the JTA website and leave a polite but firm message!  I just did.  Hopefully it doesn't just get ignored.

[fieldafm]

The blonde girl in the third pic is hot... Ock, did you happen to get her number for me?

You might note that both she and the gal behind her (waving) were quite friendly with the dirty old man taking their photo.  HA HA!

The natives ARE VERY friendly here...

OCKLAWAHA   

I rode the skyway this morning... but alas, did not see her.  Maybe next time.

Oh well, parked at the Kings Ave garage and everything worked fine down there... when I got back on the skyway to go back across the river, the turnstiles at the central station(i believe) were tricky.   

[stjr]

What say you, friend STJR?

For those that even care, see my response to Stephen's blitzkrieg at his duplicate post of this at Post #10 at: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,8772.msg157289/topicseen.html#new

[Bewler]

And an abandoned Skyway actually could have at least one use that would salvage a good part of our investment.  New York City has opened the High Line, an abandoned 100+ year old elevated train platform that runs some 20 to 30 blocks and is now cleverly converted into a version of an elevated "riverwalk" over the streets of New York.  Thousands of people visit it daily.

That's pretty interesting. And have you seen how many people bike/jog the Acosta bridge lately? Imagine if we did the same thing. Though I doubt it would work and would probably look totally ridiculous.

[Ocklawaha]

Mass transit is MASS INFRASTRUCTURE and the most expensive part of any fixed mass transit system is DOWNTOWN, be it Skyway, Railroad, or BRT. The Skyway is largely DONE DOWNTOWN, and is an effective "streetcar line" that we don't have to build anew. IT'S DONE, as far as punching the hole through the central city, and now it's well past due to make the small investments to extend it to logical transit interchange terminals at each endpoint where it can meet REAL STREETCARS and BRT and CITY BUS and AUTO COMMUTERS and EXPRESS BUS and, and, and...

Quit looking at the Skyway as some sort of orphaned bastard child (as JTA itself has done in the last couple of years) and START seeing it as an included part of a major metro transit system. It doesn't need more then 3 more miles to integrate it with whatever we want to toss it's way. If you REALLY MUST HOWL at it, how about this, the same genius that cooked up our Skyway as "far superior to streetcar" is the same guy who has designed our dysfunctional transportation ranch. BOHICA!

OCKLAWAHA

[CS Foltz]

Yup..............our taxpayer subsidized JTA hard at work again! $kyway should have been completed to project end not where it stops at now! The full length had a chance, not the shortened version we have now Ock!

[Coolyfett]

We should have built a line ten years ago from Riverside through Downtown to either Springfield or the Sports District.  Our core could have taken full advantage of the market boom and it would have mitigated a little the down turn in the market.
Our next transit solution should be some kind of fixed rail and connect to more residential areas.

Id rather the Skyway go to these location. Has a better from vehicle veiw & does not get in the way of cars

[Coolyfett]

^The 1.45 mile High Line in NYC cost something like $50 million to construct.  Excluding the money already invested in the existing skyway system, you could probably add a station on Riverside Avenue, extend the thing to San Marco (Atlantic Blvd.) and the Stadium District for a similar cost.

Wisdom. Its a shame others dont have it.

[brainstormer]

http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/125612528.html

It looks like Milwaukee might finally get their streetcars.  I particularly like the part of the article that speaks about the line's close proximity to hotels, office towers, residential units, etc.  The streetcar line will connect up with their newly added on to Inter-modal transportation center.  Obviously Amtrak, Greyhound, Streetcars, etc don't mind sharing one big waiting room.  JTA  Their center is compact and was obviously built to accommodate new modes of transportation in the future.  Good job Milwaukee.

[thelakelander]

Here's some good info to keep in mind as we plan our own 3.5 mile streetcar starter line between DT and Park & King:

Milwaukee Common Council leaders Thursday endorsed building a $64.6 million modern streetcar line downtown, a move that brings the city closer than ever before to resolving a public transit debate that has raged for nearly 20 years.

With Thursday's vote, a majority of aldermen have now declared their support for building the 2.1-mile line pushed by Mayor Tom Barrett, indicating it's likely to win council approval July 26 if all aldermen are present and none switch their votes.

The council's Steering & Rules Committee acted despite warnings by city Comptroller W. Martin "Wally" Morics, who urged aldermen to slow down the process, and despite two utilities' fears that the planned route would add tens of millions of dollars in costs and delay the project.

In response, the panel called for the public works commissioner to consult with the council and comptroller to change the route or slice spending if necessary to cap costs at $64.6 million.

Barrett hailed the vote as "a significant step" but added, "We know there remains a lot of work to be done" before the project is complete.

Modern streetcars resemble light rail vehicles. But, like old-fashioned streetcars, they typically run on rails laid in streets, draw power from overhead wires and operate in traffic. Milwaukee's streetcars would run every 10 minutes weekdays, and every 15 minutes in late-night, early-morning and weekend hours, from the lower east side to the downtown Amtrak-Greyhound station, starting in 2014.

The streetcar project would be financed by $54.9 million in long-idle federal transit aid and $9.7 million from a tax-incremental financing district set up for the Cathedral Place mixed-use development. City officials plan to seek federal aid to extend the line to E. Brady St. and to the Pabst Brewery redevelopment, boosting the total project cost to $104.8 million.

Running the streetcars would cost $2.65 million a year under the current plan, rising to $4.89 million if the extensions are added. Barrett wants to pay those costs with fares, parking fees and advertising and sponsorship revenue, a plan that would require separate council approval. Annual ridership is projected at 588,880 by 2015 with the basic route or 1.2 million with the extensions.

With the extensions, the project would create 625 construction jobs and 455 jobs at suppliers, plus 35 operating jobs. Milwaukee Composites President Jeff Kober drew applause by promising to donate the streetcar floors his company could produce.

Barrett first proposed the streetcar line in 2007. Last year, a study committee voted to advance the project into preliminary engineering. Design is now 30% complete.

1. You don't have to follow the FTA New/Small Starts process for a streetcar if you're willing to get innovative with financing.  It seems like the biggest obstacle to overcome is getting an influential individual to provide the leadership.  In Milwaukee's case, it was their Mayor.

2. You don't have to raise taxes for a streetcar for O&M.  A mixture of DT parking fees, fares, advertising and sponsorship revenue is a solution to dedicated funding for annual operations.

3. Whenever you talk transit investment, don't forget to talk about job creation.  Locally, we miss out on directly relating mass transit with economic development and job creation.  TOD aside, Milwaukee's 2-mile streetcar line would create 625 construction jobs, 455 jobs at suppliers and 35 permanent jobs between now and 2014.  That's a great short term economic boost for a city for a project that will also attract TOD and redevelopment in the core in the long term. 

[fsujax]

Fact number one. Never federalize a project unless you just have to!

[thelakelander]

I just left the historical society's archives and came across some streetcar information that I found pretty interesting.

The comprehensive plan of the city by George Simon, Jr. in 1931 breaks down streetcar routes by ridership, cars, and neighborhoods by travel time to DT, in addition to a host of other planning related issues we still seem to discuss.

One thing that caught my eye was the population density threshold that was used for streetcar verses bus.  According to the transit specialist at the time, a population of 1,250 residents per square mile was needed for the implementation of a streetcar with 10-15 minute headways.  Anything less than that and the economics worked better for bus service.

[Live_Oak]

What percentage of people owned a car  in 1931 versus today?

[thelakelander]

What I posted was just something I came across today that I'd thought I'd share.  However, I don't think the percentage of people owning a car in 1931 vs 2012 really matters.  In reality, there is no magic residential population density number either.  For example, a medical center or mall has zero residents but both tend to be high destinations for transit riders that have systems tying into them.  Instead of focusing on population density, the true focus should be on designing for the desired built environment and the ability to efficiently link major destinations and ridership generators directly with each other at the pedestrian scale level.