Why Build A Streetcar in Jacksonville?

[fieldafm]

The blonde girl in the third pic is hot... Ock, did you happen to get her number for me?

[fieldafm]

If the Skyway is "crowded" with these few passengers, you are just supporting my point that the platforms  and system are unlikely to handle much more if people really did want to use it in any numbers.  (Imagine these pictures with triple the number of people pictured or about 50 on the platform?  Or six times the people, about 100? This is what I estimated at the Jazz Fest conclusion and it was pushing the limits.  6 times 1,700 would represent a little over 10,000 daily riders, or 1/3 of the projections for the existing system.)

The skyway had huge ridership during the Super Bowl, so it has been shown to handle much more than the present ridership numbers.

[AaroniusLives]

Good pictures Ock....some people will continue to whine....pictures of people using the system will not shut them up. It's too many, it's too few, the alarm is too loud...blah, blah, blah....it will always be something.

If anything, the pictures Ocklawaha posted prove that stjr is entirely correct in his or her belief that the Skyway doesn't attract enough riders and is a huge white elephant. I mean, that's rush hour. Being generous, there are, at most, 60 people combined on the train and at the station (and that's being really, really, absurdly generous.)  At rush hour.

APTA's most recent report pegs the ridership at 1,200 daily boardings. That's pathetic. Hysterically, the photo op demonstrates just how pathetic it all is.

Having said that, the Skyway is there. You built it, you bought it. The question remains how to make the SKyway a part of a viable, multi-modal transit system. The challenge remains how to convince a city/county/clustermuck of drivers, in a city/county/clustermuck of drivers to have the vision and the political will to implement this viable, multi-modal transit system. Finally, the challenge is to develop high-density, pedestrian-friendly, ecologically sustainable communities at each mode of this multi-modal transit system. Because if you tear down the train that goes nowhere, and replace it with a streetcar that goes nowhere, you still have a pathetic transit system that nobody uses.

This extends to the overall transit system itself: if the whole damned metro area is geared towards cars, and you build a transit system, while not changing the car-centric development of the metro area, you now have a failed transit system.

I'm totally a transit advocate. I don't own a car, and purposefully moved to a place where I don't need a car to lead a 1st-class life as an American citizen. But I'm also a former resident of FloriDUHhhhh, specifically Miami. And despite the population densities, the endless traffic and the rest, it's gonna take a lot of convincing to convince FloriDUHhhhhians in South Florida and the rest of the state to get out of their cars. We, the people, will plug them in, run them on pig feces...ANYTHING to continue to drive-in and drive on. The only way to at least create an alternative is to be sure that the transit system and the building codes are in sync...and that the transit goes from somewhere to somewhere else...and at both ends, you don't need to deal with a car. Period.

[fsujax]

Well, Nashville's commuter rail train averages less than 800 riders a day! just sayin....it could be worse for the Skyway. At least people are using it. Until we have a COMPLETED system, the Skyway will remain under utilized.

[AaroniusLives]

Well, Nashville's commuter rail train averages less than 800 riders a day! just sayin....it could be worse for the Skyway. At least people are using it. Until we have a COMPLETED system, the Skyway will remain under utilized.

That's an apples to oranges comparison. Nashville's line required minimal investment, using existing tracks and "used trains." The Skyway required entirely new tracks (twice now), and new technology investment in APM. That's a much higher investment in cost. The Skyway is older, with declining ridership. The Nashville line is new, with increasing ridership. Finally, one is a downtown circulator and the other is a commuter train.

Perhaps a more apt comparison would be with the Detroit People Mover. Both systems have comparable technologies and investments, both are near the same length (2.5-2.9 miles,) both operate in the same environments (downtowns) and both are attempting to serve the same purpose (CBD circulation.)

Mind you, the Detroit People Mover's numbers are still pathetic: 6100 people. This from a system that was initially projected to handle nearly 68,000 riders per day. That's still way, way more than the Skyway.

Closer to home, you have the Miami Metromover. While I think it has far too many stations, it still has some use in Downtown Miami, Brickell and Omni. To be fair, Miami's APM has 4.4 miles of track, so it's a much more comprehensive system that the Skyway. It's connected to the Metrorail. It's also completely free, which has to goose usage up. Nonetheless, it has 30,250 daily riders. You could divide the numbers in half to approximate the track length of the Skyway and you still have more than 15,000 riders on the Miami Metromover. (Oh, and both the Metrorail and the Metromover are massive failures, nowhere near meeting their initial ridership projections.)

The Skyway is a huge failure. Massive. Stinking. Pile of failure. Because of the automated people moving technology associated with it, it's also a costly failure.

However, any other cheaper, more proven technology used in place of the Skyway will still fail without a comprehensive mass transit system to compliment it. If the Skyway were a streetcar, busway, light rail or whatever,  it would have been cheaper to build and operate, but it wouldn't have the ridership because there's no mass transit system to support it. Moreover, without dense development around the nodes of this mass transit system, ridership will still be low, because it's easier to get around a car utopia with a damned car. 

[CS Foltz]

kinda like the One Billion plus that has been spent on downtown over the last 20 year.............have nothing to show for that either do we?

btw...I think the folks who frequent the new library, arena, and baeball stadium would disagree!

I can not argue with that view, but would have to point out just how many empty bldgs, moved or failed stores and arena and baseball stadium that is not used year round? Skyway has potential but in its current state and with the total numbers of riders hovering around 1,700 perday......this is cost effective and efficient mass transit? Seven Million Dollars a year to operate and what does it serve, one side of the river to the other side with several stops inbetween...........when downtown dries up and blows away, who is going to ride it then? Oh I know............Courthouse persons right?

[thelakelander]

I thought it was $4 million to operate when it was running seven days a week and averaging over 3,000 riders a day?  Since its down to five days and reduced hours during those days, the cost to maintain must have dropped.  Does anyone know what the new numbers are?  

[CS Foltz]

lake............I am getting confused! Figures that were posted here was $7 Million for one years operation and ridership was at 1,700? I don't remember anytime that 3k used it on a daily basis.........so I have to ask how did you come up with the 4 Million to run and how long ago was 3k riding?

[tufsu1]

ridership of 3,000 per day was as recent as 2007...ridership nosedived when AT&T took over Bellsouth and moved many employees out of downtown

[stjr]

I thought it was $4 million to operate when it was running seven days a week and averaging over 3,000 riders a day?  Since its down to five days and reduced hours during those days, the cost to maintain must have dropped.

Sorry, Lake, the losses haven't declined, they have increased after 2 years of "stability".  $4 million is the amount of Skyway cash losses in the year 2007 with total operating losses after depreciation of about $12 million.  JTA feeds the eager press, who makes the mistake of not questioning JTA info, the $4 million cash number.  Tufsu likes cash only, too, but GAAP and IRS accounting is to include the depreciation because that represents the wasting away of the up front cash capital investment in the system over time and which, if it continues, will have to be replenished by new capital expenditures paid in cash.

Back in 2006, the Skyway lost a bit over $5 million cash and had total operating losses of almost $13 million after depreciation.  

JTA's financial statements for the period ending 9/2007 show the Skyway lost about $6 million in cash and had a total operating loss of $14 million after depreciation.

Operating revenues have hovered around half a million for those three years and the portion from passengers has hung around the low $300,000.

Does anyone know what the new numbers are?

I would help you out here, Lake, but after 9 months, JTA has yet to post its September, 2009, financials on its web site.  I raised the question of where these were a few days ago and no one could say.  Maybe you can remind JTA they are overdue.

See the available financials for yourself: http://www.jtafla.com/AboutJTA/showPage.aspx?Sel=32

[stjr]

APTA's most recent report pegs the ridership at 1,200 daily boardings. That's pathetic.

Aaronius, thanks for pointing out the just released first quarter, 2010, numbers. DOWN to 1,200 passengers per weekday from 1,700 last quarter, a 29% decrease. This is also a 7% decrease over last year's first quarter.

Let's redo some math:

$14 million/600 daily round trip riders = $23,333 per rider SUBSIDY by taxpayers per year.  That is a truly amazing subsidy number and way beyond what anyone should find acceptable, even by mass transit standards.

Here is another amazing number, the subsidy per Skyway trip:

106,500 trips in first quarter, 2010, times 4 quarters/year = 426,000 trips per year. 
$14 million/426,000 trips/year = $32.86 per trip SUBSIDY by taxpayers!

Do you think this is why JTA isn't in a hurry to post the latest financials?

[stjr]

seriously?  Why is a streetcar thread the platform for yet another screed about the skyway?

Not sure if you are directing this at me, Stephen, but... if you review the thread you will see this discussion has had participation by lots of posters.  I just respond as I see fit.

Having every thread about transit get hijacked into skyway discussion is getting tiresome.

Stephen, why so grumpy? It's a discussion thread.  And, the Skyway's fate is intertwined with streetcars so it seems inevitable that it would show up here.

Believe me, I, too, weary of having to restate my points over and over and have frequently tried to steer posters to existing threads to avoid rehashes.  See this quote on post #29 to Mattius on this very thread:

Mattius, everyone of your points has been discussed thoroughly prior to your arrival here.  I ask that you refer to the top Skyway threads in this forum for all the sides to your points.

I didn't see you jump in and support my comment there.  Why not?  Where were you when Ock posted all his Skyway pictures above and implied the Skyway was pulling in major traffic in rush hour?

It seems some posters believe the Skyway is the solution to all our mass transit problems and I just can't let that go unchallenged if they persist.  Why don't you intervene when proponents speak up, not just opponents?  That would be "fair and balanced".

We often agree and share passion for many items discussed.  However, when we differ, a little tolerance of opinions differing from yours, Stephen, would be appreciated.  Creating an excessively  "hostile" environment for dissenters with you is not healthy for MJ and doesn't promote tolerance of your viewpoints by those who might disagree with you.

STJR.  Other than the experience that you described at the Jazz Festival, what mass transit do you use?  What do you use it for and where do you travel from and to?

I have ridden buses, subways, commuter rail, our famous Skyway, trolleys, and Amtrak trains and inter-city service in various cities around the country.  Living in Jax, "regular" use is not realistic as you well know.

Care to share your experiences, Stephen?

[Ocklawaha]

The blonde girl in the third pic is hot... Ock, did you happen to get her number for me?

You might note that both she and the gal behind her (waving) were quite friendly with the dirty old man taking their photo.  HA HA!

The natives ARE VERY friendly here...

OCKLAWAHA   

[SightseerLounge]

I guess that everyone can, at least, partly agree that the Skyway is failing because there isn't any other system connecting to take people out to other parts of town!

There aren't even busses in every part of town! Tax dollars, Better Jacksonville Plan, Subsidies can all be used in better ways, but that hasn't been done lately!

Someone always has to get their pockets filled before work for the people can be done!

Maybe, the streetcar will be built in a Miami fashion: Going to the badlands to stop anyone from wanting to ride it.

Maybe, the streetcar will be Amtrak style!

I'll just hope all of the politicans and planners will make a mistake and build the streetcar in peoples favor!

Like the Acela, for now, the City of Jacksonville will just have to get something on the rails.

It can't just be "cut off" like the Skyway!

Maybe, people just want to see a streetcar like the other cities have.

Of course, some people would want the streetcar to come to their front door.

The streetcars were supposed to be rebuilt a long time ago anyway!

Maybe, downtown isn't the answer right now. The people might be looking in the wrong place to start the streetcar!

Downtown might come later in the system.

People are away from the center of town for the most part!

There's a lot of passion for the streetcars and the Skyway. There's either love, or hate, for them. (Especially the Skyway!)

Hopefully, Jacksonville's transit system can be "successful," and help people get to where they have to go in a reasonable amount of time. That's what it is about.

[Ocklawaha]

Good pictures Ock....some people will continue to whine....pictures of people using the system will not shut them up. It's too many, it's too few, the alarm is too loud...blah, blah, blah....it will always be something.

If anything, the pictures Ocklawaha posted prove that stjr is entirely correct in his or her belief that the Skyway doesn't attract enough riders and is a huge white elephant. I mean, that's rush hour. Being generous, there are, at most, 60 people combined on the train and at the station (and that's being really, really, absurdly generous.)  At rush hour.

Actually STJR is building his case on a few still photos, with a limited field of vision, taken within 2 minutes of each other. Each train car holds just over 20 persons and they were full, uncomfortably full with no seats available. What STJR couldn't know is that on the evening I took the shots the Kings Avenue-Central-Rosa Parks trains were running through end to end as they SHOULD every day, what's more is that they were running on 3 minute headways. For whatever reasons they were NEVER more then 5 minutes apart and I didn't note any being more then a few seconds off their "advertised" time. Everything was in perfect working order, even the esclators, but the damn turnstiles were completely useless. So even if his math is correct his numbers are flawed because this wasn't a still life, rather it was fluid, impressively fluid. The people kept coming at about the same pace for a period of around 2 hours from roughly 4:30 pm to 6:30 pm. One of my points being a full 300-500 passengers were in and out of the stations and I don't think a single one paid a fare or was counted by the turnstiles.

In the last 7 trips to the Skyway the turnstiles have been worthless either to fare collection or as counters. These trips spread over the last 3 months and with only one exception all trips in the last 3 years have included something broken at whatever station I was in. Usually this was the escalators, change, turnstiles or fare machines. I'm wondering how many hundred or even thousands of passengers we are missing monthly?  Can anyone else back up my comments with their own experiences? This has got me wondering if the city that runs itself like the "cribs of old Tonopah," is so damn cheap that the incompetence of outright neglect has cost the Skyway thousands of fares or ghosts?  Well the mayor said he'd run the place like a business, but nobody told John Q Citizen, that the business was a $3 dollar whorehouse.

APTA's most recent report pegs the ridership at 1,200 daily boardings. That's pathetic. Hysterically, the photo op demonstrates just how pathetic it all is.

Having said that, the Skyway is there. You built it, you bought it. The question remains how to make the SKyway a part of a viable, multi-modal transit system. The challenge remains how to convince a city/county/clustermuck of drivers, in a city/county/clustermuck of drivers to have the vision and the political will to implement this viable, multi-modal transit system. Finally, the challenge is to develop high-density, pedestrian-friendly, ecologically sustainable communities at each mode of this multi-modal transit system. Because if you tear down the train that goes nowhere, and replace it with a streetcar that goes nowhere, you still have a pathetic transit system that nobody uses.

Exactly my friend, I would argue that the 1,200 or 3,000 figures are completely false and any physical count of the Skyway's passengers will likely double or triple the ridership numbers. To do such a physical count would also expose the fact that JTA has not maintained the system to even collect or maintain the low reported ridership.
The transit system is really not a system at all until all of the components work together with a harmonious synergy. The lackluster planning that has gone on in our city over the last 65 years accounts for much of the problems. Development doesn't drive transit - TRANSIT DRIVES DEVELOPMENT. The TOD's going in around the Transit components of the infamous BIG DIG in BOSTON are staggering in size and will dwarf any previous private investments in Live-Work-Play urban spaces by BILLIONS of dollars.  (...and YES Mike Miller, I do know the Silver line BRT is in the center of all of it, as is the Orange Line LRT, and Commuter Rail, but keep in mind Mike the Silver Line BRT is not the same animal JTA has tried to sell Jax... It's a FIXED ROUTE ELECTRIC TROLLEY BUS).
The Skyway remains a "Pearl" in the center without an oyster. The most valuable part is finished but without a protective hard shell framework, it will NEVER work without the whole oyster, and multi-modal mass transit is that framework creature.

This extends to the overall transit system itself: if the whole damned metro area is geared towards cars, and you build a transit system, while not changing the car-centric development of the metro area, you now have a failed transit system.

I'm totally a transit advocate. I don't own a car, and purposefully moved to a place where I don't need a car to lead a 1st-class life as an American citizen. But I'm also a former resident of FloriDUHhhhh, specifically Miami. And despite the population densities, the endless traffic and the rest, it's gonna take a lot of convincing to convince FloriDUHhhhhians in South Florida and the rest of the state to get out of their cars. We, the people, will plug them in, run them on pig feces...ANYTHING to continue to drive-in and drive on. The only way to at least create an alternative is to be sure that the transit system and the building codes are in sync...and that the transit goes from somewhere to somewhere else...and at both ends, you don't need to deal with a car. Period.

I-5 and Antelope Valley FREEway interchange after the earthquake. At the bottom of this canyon and a bit to the left of this photo the railroad pop's out of a long tunnel... untouched because quakes seldom do damage below ground level. In 5 minutes time Victorville, Pear Blossom, Apple Valley, Palmdale, Lancaster, Agua Dulce, Canyon Country, Santa Clarita, Valencia, Piru, Fillmore, and many more were left with a choice of taking a 100+ mile around the pass excursion to PCH or Topanga Canyon, or RIDE THE TRAIN.


I don't really see this as much of a problem. Once citizens are exposed to REAL QUALITY MASS TRANSIT their entire world view changes.  When people realize the savings of being able to live with even one less car, it's like an epiphany. I'm sure you all would agree that there is no more car centric place on earth then Los Angeles, but all it took was one earthquake (Northridge 1994) to take down some major FREEway infrastructure, and that forced an emergency move to a commuter rail system. Rail in Southern California could only have gotten off the ground by an act of God.  The emergency shifted commuters to rail with borrowed equipment, to allow movement from the surrounding mountain communities.  These suburban cities were suddenly cut off by the severe highway damage. Metro-Link was born under these horrible circumstances and today represents one of the key components to a new multi-modal system that has been universally embraced.  There is just no excuse why (baring an earthquake of our own) that Jacksonville, Miami, Atlanta or anywhere else can't get this same result with a little resolve. Hopefully we won't even have to bother God.


OCKLAWAHA