Why Build A Streetcar in Jacksonville?

[AaroniusLives]

The Miami Metromover, or the Miami version of the SkyWay, basically encourages people not to walk two to three blocks on actual urban streets. I went to a magnet high school in downtown Miami...the Metromover doesn't really add much to the mix, beyond the fugly pylons that hold it up. I'll give it this: it's the cheapest tourist attraction in all of Florida.

Aaronius, I'd swear I've heard that same talk in some quarters about our Skyway.  But, some here say the concept is a Jax problem, not a people mover problem.  Lake thinks the Metromover is a success (even though the ridership numbers are a pittance, given Miami's population, and they are riding it for free).  Also, not sure what the Miami system was projected to carry versus actual since no one has answered that question yet.

As a "horizontal elevator" in Downtown Miami, the Metromover is effective at moving commuters and residents around the area with minimal street contact. (And, as said in my earlier post, it's a great, cheap tourist attraction.) When it was initially built, the Metromover was a great incentive for employers to locate in vanity office buildings downtown, "Your employees never have to leave the air conditioned comfort!"

However, if one looks at a http://www.miamidade.gov/transit/mover_stations.asp map of the Metromover, it's pretty bonkers. Stations are 2-3 blocks apart. For real? Is that not the perfect distance for walking?

The Skyway at least spreads out their stations a bit.

The shared problem both the Skyway and the Metromover have is that they don't connect to comprehensive transit systems. Meaning that it's possible, but not preferable, to live and work in Miami-Dade or Metro Jacksonville without a car.

[thelakelander]

^I agree.  These systems really don't work well without being a part of a comprehensive transit system.  Until Jacksonville has a comprehensive transit system, the skyway will continue to struggle regardless of where it is extended within downtown.

[Ocklawaha]

I could not have said it better stjr! Rider miles and Ridership miles are two different categories, but I don't speak "Consulting"! I speak in plain language or black and white............quite a bit of difference between the two for sure!

Funny boyz, this is the exact same thing JTA tried to get across a few months back only to have the TU and many on this site loose their minds about "DOUBLE NUMBERS" "TWO SETS OF BOOKS" etc...   Bull Shit! Just two ways of getting answers.

Rail does influence urban growth, even monorails, our own Omni and Wachovia Bank complex are where they are because of the Skyway! Don't believe me? Check the record and give credit to the little scoot.


OCKLAWAHA

[tufsu1]

Once you have a more accurate comparison of costs, weight them against the relative passenger miles.  By example, 20,000 people going 2 miles on a streetcar = 40,000 passenger miles.  200,000 people going in an interchange loop, say 0.2 forward miles, is an equal 40,000 passenger miles.

Tufsu, your simplistic analysis is why we have so many roads and so little mass transit and bespeaks what one expects from a road builder.[/b]

talk about funny numbers...wow!

the reality stjr is that I understand and appreciate the value of a comprehensive regional mobility system...in terms of roads and transit, think of it this way....

Roads = Freeways, Arterials, Collectors, local Streets
Transit = Intercity service (commuter rail and Amtrak), intracity service (BRT and light rail), community service (local bus and streetcar), and finally local service (downtown trolleys, community shuttles, skyway, etc.)

Now, sure the I-95/JTB interchange is only a small part of a larger system that serves the whole metro area....but the same could/should be said about the streetcar....building a full regional transit infrastructure for our region is likely to cost upwards of $2 Billion (not including operations)....if the entire system (commuter rail, BRT, streetcars, and local bus) gets 100,000 riders, would that qualify as "bang for the buck" to you?  

[stjr]

Now, sure the I-95/JTB interchange is only a small part of a larger system that serves the whole metro area....but the same could/should be said about the streetcar....building a full regional transit infrastructure for our region is likely to cost upwards of $2 Billion (not including operations)....if the entire system (commuter rail, BRT, streetcars, and local bus) gets 100,000 riders, would that qualify as "bang for the buck" to you? 

Tufsu, I can only answer intuitively at this point.  Common sense tells me that a shared mode of transit (i.e. mass transit) should, for most any distance, be the most efficient and beneficial system to use.  If, as I said, all the costs versus all the benefits were properly accounted for, I fully expect streetcars to come out on top every time in giving "bang for the buck" over the same money spent on a road project.  That $2 billion regional mass transit system you spelled out would appear to be a far better use of $2 billion than spending it on urban sprawl promoters like the Outer Beltway, 9B, and JTB/I-95.  Yet, we are building the roads, not the mass transit at present.

[CS Foltz]

$kyway in its present form is nothing but a drain on resources. I believe in an intermodal system of mass transit, of which the Skyway could be one part of, but the balance appears to be more and more roads! Not to mention bus's, without shelters mind you, and the next phase of bus's appears to be "BRT" in its splendor! Lets pollute more if we possibly can, so I have to ask.............where is the rail? If like you say tufsu you "value a comprehensive regional mobility system" then why hasn't rail been discussed or planned for to this date? I want more bang for my tax dollar and more roads ain't it! We have too many roads ill planned as they are, at this point in time! So many studies and committee's and consulting firms have been used to today and we have nothing to show for it yet...............kinda like the One Billion plus that has been spent on downtown over the last 20 year.............have nothing to show for that either do we?

[tufsu1]

Common sense tells me that a shared mode of transit (i.e. mass transit) should, for most any distance, be the most efficient and beneficial system to use.  

I agree...which is why the Skyway isn't such a bad deal after all 

[tufsu1]

I believe in an intermodal system of mass transit, of which the Skyway could be one part of, but the balance appears to be more and more roads! Not to mention bus's, without shelters mind you, and the next phase of bus's appears to be "BRT" in its splendor! Lets pollute more if we possibly can, so I have to ask.............where is the rail? If like you say tufsu you "value a comprehensive regional mobility system" then why hasn't rail been discussed or planned for to this date?

HOLY CRAP!..rail hasn't been discussed?  

Just what do you think this forum has been doing for almost 5 years?  What do you think is included in the North Florida TPO LRTP?  What about the JTA Commuter Rail and Streetcar Feasibility studies?

btw...please don't criticize buses without shelters...you refuse to endorse the conept of allowing advertising so more shelters can be built!

[tufsu1]

kinda like the One Billion plus that has been spent on downtown over the last 20 year.............have nothing to show for that either do we?

btw...I think the folks who frequent the new library, arena, and baeball stadium would disagree!

[stjr]

Common sense tells me that a shared mode of transit (i.e. mass transit) should, for most any distance, be the most efficient and beneficial system to use. 

I agree...which is why the Skyway isn't such a bad deal after all 

Yep, the Skyway may be better than cars.  However, that is not where my beef with it is.  It is with how it fails to compare with other MASS TRANSIT modes for usefulness and cost effectiveness.  Once again, Tufsu, any mass transit money we spend should be "anywhere but" for this reason.

[Ocklawaha]

Monday at 5-6 pm on the "unused?" Skyway:















ANY QUESTIONS?


OCKLAWAHA

[stjr]

Ock, I am just "overwhelmed"    If I didn't know better, I would think this was a big city transit system - not!  Most people I counted in anyone picture was maybe 16 people.  Wow!  A Skyway record?

At the last reported 1,700 passengers a day, if most of the traffic fell around morning and evening "rush" hours and a few at lunch time, you would be looking at about 300 riders during such hours.  If the Skyway train came by 8 times an hour, that would be about 37 riders (I am giving you 100+% extra credit here versus the pictures) per train which is about the max capacity for the Skyway trains as currently configured.  Given you were at the "Central" station, per your pictures, and the way the Skyway routes work, nearly all Skyway riders must go through this one station.  This all adds up to the "crowded" (a term I find debatable for this purpose) look in your pictures.

If the Skyway is "crowded" with these few passengers, you are just supporting my point that the platforms  and system are unlikely to handle much more if people really did want to use it in any numbers.  (Imagine these pictures with triple the number of people pictured or about 50 on the platform?  Or six times the people, about 100? This is what I estimated at the Jazz Fest conclusion and it was pushing the limits.  6 times 1,700 would represent a little over 10,000 daily riders, or 1/3 of the projections for the existing system.)

By the way, I wonder what the other "non-Central" stations looked like?

I suggest you send these pix to JTA for use in their next Skyway funding request.  I am sure others will be as "overwhelmed" as I am.

[SightseerLounge]

Monday at 5-6 pm on the "unused?" Skyway:

ANY QUESTIONS?

Yes, how do you find this stuff. I like seeing it come to life?

Can we get a Disney style monorail in the suburbs!? (Billions, upon Billions, of dollars! Just Playing!)
At least, can we get the 3, 4, or 6 car model that the UM III was built to handle!

Will the streetcar be needed if the skyway were built to Riverside, the Stadium, etc.? (Will the city justify another thousand years of no other transit but bus!?)

Bonus: (Personal stab at the Jaguars) If the Jaguars can, I don't know, win a game, would that finally get the city to build either a streetcar, or skyway down to the stadium!

Talleyrand?

A "test" commuter system should have been put in during the Super Bowl and Jacksonville would have some interesting numbers on how to deal with all of this!

sjtr would you suggest to "tear the sucker down," or convert it to light rail!?

[Keith-N-Jax]

Way to go OCK,prove em wrong,, I'm havin fun.

[fsujax]

Good pictures Ock....some people will continue to whine....pictures of people using the system will not shut them up. It's too many, it's too few, the alarm is too loud...blah, blah, blah....it will always be something.