JaxPort's challenge: How to move that new cargo

[Steve]

Miami's are currently being Studied (they don't have any toll Truckways now - they do have regular toll roads for all vehicles): http://www.reason.org/ps365_miami_truckways.pdf

Savannah doesn't have any right now, but they are considering adding one by 2030: http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/1155

I couln't find anything about Charleston either way, but this is the first I've heard of it.

I still don't get what you accomplish by penalizing the transportation industry.  Don't say money for other things, because if you are looking for transit money, I'd put a toll on at JTB, I95 and US1 from St Johns County, and 17 and Blanding from OP.  You'd probably raise just as much, and not piss off the businesses.

[Steve]

The Savannah Article is three years old.

And since it's not quite 2030, I thought it would apply.


But that's not the point.  If you want to levy a new tax, why would you do it on a Duval County business?  Why not do it on all the people who live across the county line, but beat the crap out of our roads?

No to mention, Jacksonville doesn't have very many major industries (call centers don't count).  Why would you want to tax the crap out of them?

[Steve]

Savannah Port Authority just verified that they are using this idea man.

Okay, they are going forward with it.  I'll take your word for it.  Detroit built a one-way people mover.  Should we do the same?

[Steve]

Why shouldnt the people who actually use the road (and damage it through wear and tear) to make money pay for it?

I agree - so let's make every road a toll road.

[thelakelander]

I don't think Jax is ready for commercial tolls and its a mute point, since the extra truck traffic will use Heckscher, not MLK.  MLK does not back up, won't anytime soon (port expansions are on Heckscher) and we have the room that Miami doesn't for railyards (they should have kept FEC's old Buena Vista yard).

[Steve]

And did you know that Commercial Trucking Companies use the roads to make a profit?

So does UPS.  Should we enact tolls on them as well?

[Steve]

However.  Commercial Toll Roads are hardly a novelty in the world.

On this point, I completely agree.

[thelakelander]

sounds like a good way for the highway lobby to build some more roads at the expense of the environment.

Proposed Savannah Northwest Expressway route

[thelakelander]

I don't think Jax is ready for commercial tolls and its a mute point, since the extra truck traffic will use Heckscher, not MLK.  MLK does not back up, won't anytime soon (port expansions are on Heckscher) and we have the room that Miami doesn't for railyards (they should have kept FEC's old Buena Vista yard).

What data are you using for this claim?

The proposed terminal locations are on Heckscher, north of the Trout River.  Maps and aerials indicate the MLK is south of the Trout River.  The illustration in today's TU, provided by the MPO shows the roads expected to see increases in truck traffic.

Trucks per day in 2020, according to First Coast MPO & FDOT

SR 9A: 2,985 (without railyard), 2,210 (with railyard)
I-295: 5,060 (without railyard), 3,060 (with railyard)
Heckscher Drive: 5,450 (without railyard), 3,850 (with railyard)
I-95: 250 (without railyard), 100 (with railyard)

Seriously?

Have you ever seen MLK at night?

Yes, I use it quite frequently (around three to four times a week) and have never been stopped by truck traffic, especially at night.

Its nothing BUT commercial freight.  It backs up in both lanes for the south and north exits to 95.

I normally use it from the Matthews Bridge to Main Street, the section closet to the Tallyrand terminals.  This portion is free sailing.  Could the back up you're noticing be from those looking to avoid I-95 construction to the north and south of that interchange?

[thelakelander]

Tallyrand is the smallest terminal.  The major logistics problem is centered around Heckscher, where the larger terminals are and the new terminals will be going.

[thelakelander]

well....'logistics'  by definition would include the ports as a whole.

We really have to start thinking on a regional basis.

I agree.  I just disagree that we need to tax trucks using MLK.

And there is really a lot that some education and new ideas could do for us.

For example, should the decisions about warehousing be made by the same old junkers that have done it for decades or should the requirements for warehousing projects be set by educated people with an eye to environmental impact and efficient design.

How do you know that this does not happen?  There's a warehousing boom going on right now in the Northside being fueled by the private sector, many of which are being designed by industry specialist.  I don't think the city or its residents need to take time in telling companies how to design their warehouses.  Lets stick to lighting streets, cleaning the river and lowering the murder rate.

Traffic by mayhem or a central multi modal conductor who directs large influxes of shipments across three different transportation platforms?

Its all logistics baby.

If they build their own intermodal terminal and purchase the CSX line, you'll have the multi modal conductor without placing tolls on MLK and penalizing the companies operating in that area.

[thelakelander]

Failing our purchase of a complete nutral access, (which we have a Talleyrand), would mean the other railroads would have to build expensive "tap lines". The only logical route for NS would be somewhere from Hecksher, just south of JIA and around to the far northwest beyond Grand Crossing. We need to bite the bullet on this or we'll be a port captive to the wishes of CSX...and how do you do this without pissing off the Big Dog downtown?

Tap lines are unfeasible because the ROW is not there and it would cost a few arms, lungs and legs (not even mentioning the environment issues you'll face crossing hundreds of thousands of acres of wetlands) to assemble ROW stretching from Callahan to Blount Island.  One thing Big Dogs love is food.  Our Big Dog's refrigerator is filled with green.  If you don't want to piss him off, offer to exchange his line for green dollar bills.

[thelakelander]

How do you know that this does not happen?  There's a warehousing boom going on right now in the Northside being fueled by the private sector, many of which are being designed by industry specialist.  I don't think the city or its residents need to take time in telling companies how to design their warehouses.  Lets stick to lighting streets, cleaning the river and lowering the murder rate.

well ok Lake.

Find a significant green warehousing development.   Let me know when you find it.

keep this in mind before you answer: http://www.news4jax.com/news/15621995/detail.html

I don't know what city ash sites have to do with private industrial development, but "green warehousing" is already becoming an industry trend:

http://www.areadevelopment.com/specialPub/aug06/greenbuilding.shtml

There's nothing that the City of Jacksonville can do that the private sector isn't already finding ways to implement.  We're still blushing over the SJTC and BRT, when both of these things have been around for decades.  We shouldn't expect COJ to have the answers (or have to pay) for everything, but they should get a grip over the things they are supposed to (maintaining parks, sewage systems, etc.).

[thelakelander]

From a mass transit point of view, buying the line makes a lot of since.  JTA/COJ/JaxPort would be in charge of making their own schedule on the tracks for both passenger and freight service.  In this case, all freight service leaving Blount Island could be scheduled to run at night, leaving the same line open for local passenger mass transit during the day.  The same deal that unlocks the port's chastity belt could be used to unlock JTA's self imposed death sentence with the FTA.

San Diego Sprinter


Austin Capital Metrorail


New Jersey RiverLine


Ottawa O-Train


All of the above are commuter rail systems that run on the same tracks as regularly scheduled freight trains.  The common link between these systems is the local municipality or transit authority owns the rail lines, enabling them to control the scheduling.  Freight service on the lines also help serve as a dedicated revenue source for mass transit operations & maintenance.

[Jason]

Would limiting the freight companies schedule cost them as much as tolling them?