JaxPort's challenge: How to move that new cargo

[thelakelander]

Can't imagine why.  The rail line in New Jersey is pretty busy (moreso than our spur) and the companies operating along that corridor haven't been negatively impacted.  Ock will have a better answer, but the port would not stimulate enough traffic to warrant freight running on an hourly basis.  With a intermodal yard on site, trains would be assembled at the port and be able to run when they're ready to go, without having to stop at the Westside yards.  The current three day wait to get crosstown to the current yards would be eliminated under this scenerio.

[tufsu1]

you want a local example...here you go...

Baker County is interested in economic development in the form of being an "inland port"....they have proposals from several developers for significant warehousing facilities....and the County is looking at additions to their comp. plan and land development codes that will encourage/require green building practices.

[thelakelander]

don't know what city ash sites have to do with private industrial development, but "green warehousing" is already becoming an industry trend:

http://www.areadevelopment.com/specialPub/aug06/greenbuilding.shtml

There's nothing that the City of Jacksonville can do that the private sector isn't already finding ways to implement.  We're still blushing over the SJTC and BRT, when both of these things have been around for decades.  We shouldn't expect COJ to have the answers (or have to pay) for everything, but they should get a grip over the things they are supposed to (maintaining parks, sewage systems, etc.).

obviously there is green warehousing or I wouldnt have mentioned it.  But I asked you to find a Jacksonville example in that warehousing boom on the northside you were talking about.

Any luck?

You didn't ask for a local example:

well ok Lake.

Find a significant green warehousing development.   Let me know when you find it.

keep this in mind before you answer: http://www.news4jax.com/news/15621995/detail.html

tufsu1 provided one however.  As I said earlier, this is something best left to the private sector.  The city is already stretched thin.  We shouldn't expect the city to lead all forms of private development.

The simple answer to that is hell yes.

Time, literally, is money.  Great question Jason.

Do you have any proof that the freight companies on the examples above being limited?  Do we even know how often trains use the CSX track in the Northside on a daily basis?  If it takes 3 days to get freight across town to the Westside yards, that tells me CSX isn't sending as many trains per day as they do down the A-line or the line paralleling Beaver Street.

As far as the potential of killing two birds with one stone, in addition to having ultimate control of scheduling, owning the ROW sets the city and JTA up to add additional parallel track, when the traffic increases to the point of where its warranted.

[thelakelander]

Right.  I think the original answers and solutions on the first two pages of this thread make the most sense.

JaxPort is going to have to find a way to fund construction for their own intermodal terminal, as opposed to relying on CSX to pay for something that helps increase their competitor's business.

[thelakelander]

I said this earlier, but in my opinion, the best thing the Port/City/JTA could do is:

A. Buy the CSX line from Blount Island, at least to the Springfield yard.

B. Relay the S-Line Track from the Springfield yard to the Prime Osborn. 

C. Lease line to short line operator.

D. Build an intermodal yard for the port and its new terminals off Heckscher Drive.

A,B,C & D eliminates the need to truck goods to the Westside (takes truck traffic off our interstates/eliminates goods waiting for three days to reach Westside yards) and gives the port direct access to FEC, CSX and NS (a port with options is better than one without them).  The lease with a short line operator also give them a dedicated revenue source to help with the expenses for making such a move.  Logistically, this clears up a huge mess and opens the door for mass transit on the same lines, thus potentially killing two birds with one stone.

[thelakelander]

It would relieve SOME of the traffic, but not all.   Much of the freightage makes straight for the interstate.

There's no solution totally eliminating trucking nor should there be.  However, connecting Blount Island with multiple rail carries would eliminate a large portion of it, because rail would be set up to be a viable and efficient alternative. 

I would also add commercial tolls for all companies using trucking as their delivery method.

Wouldn't the majority of local companies use trucking as their delivery method?  Would a commercial toll penalize our local companies, giving out of town companies the competitive edge by using rail to ship longer distances?  Shouldn't we make doing business in Jacksonville easier, as opposed to tossing another obstacle (tax) at them?

[thelakelander]

What about Owens Corning, Jefferson Smurfit, North Florida Shipyards, the cement terminals, etc?  Would they have to pay this tax too, because they are located on Tallyrand?  How about Jax Zoo and other businesses located on Heckscher like Atlantic Marine?  What about companies located at Cecil that ship port delivered goods to their Westside facility, then send out trucks across the city/state from those distribution hubs?  Imposing an extra layer of taxes on port users sounds like a pitiful way to encourage additional businesses to use the port, when competitors like Brunswick are just a stone's throw away and could use our self imposed taxing schemes against us during competitions to recruit companies.

Additionally, most of the traffic that heads to 95 north isnt local anyways.

[thelakelander]

Maybe its just me, but I'm rarely in favor of imposing additional taxes on anyone, shipping companies included.  Most are already struggling.  There's little need to make it worse.

[thelakelander]

did you check to see if brunswick employs commercial tolls?

No.  If they do, then we ought to use it against them to recruit their companies.  Not follow suit.

[thelakelander]

Again, I don't see why we need commercial tolls to have proper service and logistics.  There's other options out there.  Taxing your local businesses to use the roads they already pay taxes for seems like a last gasp solution.

[thelakelander]

No.  Exhausting all other funding mechanisms and possibilites first would make sense to me.  You don't want to penalize companies for something they already pay taxes for before moving forward with something like that. 

For example, how much money is ultimately needed for the port's wish list?  Could the port bring in money by building their own on-site distribution centers or by leasing available land to developers who could?  Could the port generate income by going after companies to locate and use its rail lines (assuming they purchased the CSX track serving Blount Island).  Could they make money of transit oriented developments that would spring up around rail stations if passenger rail were also allowed to use the track?  Are there public/private relationships out there worth exploring before leveling new taxes?  Is there federal money available for deepening the harbor?  Could a combination of all the above bring in a decent amount of revenue to fund improvements and attract businesses? 

Imo, all of these options would need to be explored before outright penalizing your users.

[Steve]

I'd also add building toll booths at the county line to this before I would tax the industry.  Remember, the people who would pay this tax couldn't vote you out of office.

[Ocklawaha]

The talk of another rail "yard" is scary to the entire industry, even those that visit here. As I said the only thing rail yards are good for is breaking down, and pre-blocking trains for destinations. Much like the Postal Servies "Delivery sequence Mail". The the later case, the carrier no long case up or put up their mail for your address, it is all done by optical readers and computer machines and comes to them ready for the street. The Railroad equal to this is FEC's Bowden Yard, the trains are not just blocked for South Florida Cities, but by Industry, IN ORDER. The clock ticks very fast, they have 24-48 hours to take a CSX car, get it south, turn it and get it home. They developed the SFT concept, SHORT-FAST-TRAIN, and every time there is XX number of cars to roll, they're gone. It was so successful, they were able to pull in NS as a partner and FEC is buying into NS mainline to Atlanta, expanding capacity, signals, sidings etc...  NS has been forced by their number one partner to play this speed game too and now they cross the River with their big road diesels having done the blocking in MACON, and they DON'T stop in Bowden, and haul A.. for Miami.

The CSX on the other hand still uses Moncrief to break down in delivery sequence everything that comes into Jax. in the JAX blocks. Most of the South Eastern CSX traffic is sorted at Waycross, in a huge gravity fed yard known as a "Hump Yard". Now the 3 day from Hecksher to Westside sound like a truckers fantasy. Frankly, I've follow freight out of the port and gone right to Grand Crossing within an hour or so. The secret is, how long will it be hung at Moncrief before it gets on the speedways North and South.

So what do we NEED to make the port attractive to steamship lines? We need rail access with CHOICE. Not more dwell times, not yards, not anything that would cause the cargo to tarry. Many is not most ships that come in will have containers consigned to certain Cities. Rail and shipping lines know, blocking is important. So if a ship of goods for South Florida makes it into our port today, and it's sent by rail what happens? 3 days to Moncrief? While I doubt the transit time, I don't doubt the yard time. SUCKS! Fix it with ANOTHER YARD, no way. Send it to FEC? Fat chance CSX would rush the block of cars (remember the whole ship came off for South Florida) down to Grand Crossing, to Union Station and over the bridge... FEC could do it SAME DAY, but how to get FEC to the dock?

Did y'all know that NS is as big as CSX? Did you know they are often more profitable? Toss in FEC the mighty mini, and you have a mega-force in Florida with NS. Herein lays some of the trouble. We need REAL multi line, Terminal railroad access. There is no other answer short of FEC and NS blowing a line through the City to reach the port together. There is no need for this when the COJ already owns the KEYS and CSX owns the underused track.

How bad will it be? based on my numbers, when both terminals are up and running we could be sending out 21 trains a day of 100 cars. Thats each way, 42 emptys the other way. Me thinks we'll miss that old Atlantic Coast Line bridge north of USG at the mouth of the Trout River... BTW, the track still reaches within feet of the river.

Ocklawaha

[thelakelander]

From how I take it, instead of the port building its own yard, Ock wantst the port to either:

A. Buy the CSX line through the Northside, giving the port direct access to all three railroads and their yards.

B. FEC & NS, by miles of ROW and build a new rail line going into Blount Island and the new terminals.

Imo, "Option B" is unrealistic because its the most expensive option, ROW is not there and cutting a blazing path of new rail ROW through the environmentally sensitive Northside isn't going to fly over well.  Another option would be to build the old Trout River bridge back for the rail line that run near Gate's plant off of Heckscher.  However, that's CSX track & ROW, so it would still have to be purchased from them.

We ought to discuss this at tonight's meeting.  I bet if we all sat down with a map and discussed these issues in person, we could have a viable solution cooked up by the end of the night.

[thelakelander]

I hope Im not always penalizing my customers by charging them for the alfredo.

You would be penalizing your customers if you were charging them to use Main Street to get to your establishment or admission to come in, on top of the price for your product.  That's essentially what you're promoting when you mention charging commercial tolls on MLK to get to Tallyrand, which again isn't the site with the mega logistics problem.

This is a complete turn around.  You don't want parking meters downtown to charge downtown customers, but you want additional commercial tolls to charge port users?

You're alfredo may be good, but if you're going to charge me to use the street to get to your place, I'll find somewhere else to eat.