Skyway Fails Jax Jazz Festival Test

[stjr]

Thanks to the generosity of JTA (i.e. we could ride it free) and their likely desire to try and boost the image of the $ky-high-way, I took advantage of their opportunity,  and made a rare ride on it today in conjunction with the Jazz Fest.

Here are some observations and experiences that convince me more than ever that this device is never going to succeed and should be terminated for good ASAP:

Yesterday we took the Jefferson Street Station entrance.  The station, as I recall, lacked an escalator present in other stations.  The stairs equate to probably a two and a half to three story house.  On one side of the station was a pot hole filled dirt parking lot we happened to chose.  Strangely, the entire edge of this lot fronting the station was cordoned off by 2 to 3 foot poles strung with heavy gauge wire that needed to be jumped or high stepped over.  The entry to the station is confusing as there is metal fencing from floor to ceiling encircling it at ground level.  At multiple places there are gated entries.  But, for some reason some gates are open and others are closed so you have to circle around looking for the open entries.  We found this same issue at the Hemming Park station.  At Jefferson, once inside, one of two stairs was closed with yellow construction tape even though no activity was obvious.  The other had tape but someone had broken through it so we used those steps.

At the turn stiles, it was hard to tell which ones were "exits", which were "enters", or which where two-ways.  It was also hard to tell which were open for business and which were closed.  Trial and error was the order of the day.

Arriving at the top, we noted that the vehicles don't carry any signage indicating their route designations or destinations.  Rather, you have to look at a smallish little flashing sign board hanging from the station ceiling.  The route board shows you can take a vehicle from Jefferson/Convention Center to Rosa Parks but that's not what was running.  Instead, you could only go to the Central Station.  There, you had to transfer to another vehicle only running from Central to Rosa Parks.  Go figure.

Another annoying feature of the $ky-high-way is an ear-piercing warning device telling you to stand back when a train arrives.  If that doesn't make a frequent rider deaf, or at least drive them to want to jump into the track out of being scared to death when it goes off, I don't know what will.

More problems inside the vehicles.  If you are over about 6 foot, 6 inches, don't count on riding the $ky-high-way.  That's about the maximum height in the vehicles.  And, since the seating only holds about 6 men or 8 women, and the other 10 to 12 maximum riders are expected to stand holding poles, don't figure you are likely to sit.  And, at this capacity, expect to just about be kissing your nearest passengers involuntarily as it's very tight.  

In the vehicles, there are no visuals of the next stops or what route you are on, only a computer voice infrequently telling you what's next if you can hear it over people talking and are alert to the announcement being made.  Don't know how JTA passed this by ADA requirements for hard of hearing and deaf people, but maybe since it is nearly riderless, no one bothers to care.

Today, we used the Convention Center station to start.  This was slightly better since we parked in the JTA paved lot and it had an escalator.  Again, the vehicle only went to Central and we transferred to get off at Hemming.  I can assure you JTA succeeded in causing mass confusion with its ridership as many were seen getting on and off the wrong trains and trying to figure out what was happening.

The real fun came when the Jazz Fest ended and the $ky-high-way blew its chance to shine by carrying hundreds of riders in short order.  It couldn't come close.  The too-small platforms are quickly overwhelmed by a crowd approaching 100 riders.  The two measly cars making up a vehicle were maxed out at typically about 18 to 20 riders.  The crowd was once again mystified by the routing information and the actual routes running. The station signs also attempt to tell you when the next train is coming.  Don't believe them.  They are usually wrong.  That will just leave you wondering if the train will ever come.  And, tonight, it never did for one route.  The train for San Marco had door problems or something and, with a full house in its cabins, just sat stuck at Rosa Parks while riders at Hemming were left to wonder what was happening, if anything.

Not seeing a train going toward Central or whatever in that direction, we boarded a train to Rosa hoping it would reverse itself in our favor.  Our hunch was correct.  It returned, already full to Hemming leaving more hapless riders there as we continued on, unable to add more passengers.  At Central, we off loaded.  After a repeat of trains never showing, despite the signs advising of impending arrivals, we were advised by the now present $ky-high-way SWAT team, that our train would be coming.  It finally showed unannounced, and we boarded.  And...the doors wouldn't close!  Just like the Rosa Parks station train.  After several attempts by the SWAT team, they instructed us to off load saying they had to take the train out of service.  Now, it became evident that the $ky-high-way has another flaw - no side tracks.  In other words, normal routing could not begin until this train was returned to home base.  A SWAT team said the system was fully automated implying we had to wait until the computer realized what it needed to do to return this train home.  That took at least 5 minutes after the SWAT team got the doors to close.  At last, our train came in and we made it back to the Convention Center.

About that $ky-high-way ride:  If you aren't sitting or strong on your feet, expect to hold on hard when standing.  At the speed it travels around curves, it banks noticeably and you will have to work to stay perpendicular to the ground.  Certainly, more effort than the much faster traveling NY subways.  I don't see people with weak knees, bad ankles, sore hips, or the elderly finding the ride an easy one.

So, bottom line, I draw these conclusions:
1. No way the $ky-high-way is user friendly or comfortable.
2. It is very poorly routed/operated.
3. It is unreliable even when being showcased, supposedly at its best since its showtime.
4. It can no way handle more than a few people and would never work with a real rush hour crush, major events, or a bevy of conventioneers using it to return at once to downtown hotels.  Forget about it ever being useful for Jaguar games or the stadium.
5. Communication between the system and its riders is most inadequate and unreliable.
6. Connectivity at street level is confusing and awkward.

I am more convinced than ever, after this $ky-high-way refresher, that this mode of transit is fundamentally flawed, beyond fixable, and not worth another cent of taxpayer dollars to keep running, much less expand it.  It really is nothing more than what it was called when built, a small scale demonstration project, and a failed one at that.  It will never have the capacity to carry enough people at once to make a dent in Jax transit nor will it ever achieve a competitive cost/benefit ratio.

[Jim]

While this is probably the most mundane of your concerns, the loud alarm you heard is sounded when a person moves a body part across the yellow safety line at the platform edge.   

[stjr]

While this is probably the most mundane of your concerns, the loud alarm you heard is sounded when a person moves a body part across the yellow safety line at the platform edge.   

I get it.  But, the NY subways carry tens of millions of passengers, and having ridden them extensively in the last few months, I can tell you they manage without such alarms (or even any railings), i.e. there has to be a better way or maybe JTA is being overly cautious or gratuitous.

[Charles Hunter]

I rode it both days I was at Jazz Fest, from the Southbank, and had no problems.

Oh, and I've ridden MARTA in Atlanta after major events, and it takes several trains - and theirs are long and big - to clear the platforms.

The Convention Center leg running in shuttle mode is curious.  And you are aware the pot-hole filled Jefferson lot is privately owned, right?

[stjr]

I rode it both days I was at Jazz Fest, from the Southbank, and had no problems.

Oh, and I've ridden MARTA in Atlanta after major events, and it takes several trains - and theirs are long and big - to clear the platforms.

The Convention Center leg running in shuttle mode is curious.  And you are aware the pot-hole filled Jefferson lot is privately owned, right?

Charles, to each their own on the luck of the draw with the $ky-high-way working properly.  My major points have to do with its infrastructure which is never-variable and inherent to the system.  The comfort level, capacity, ride sensation, platform size, station design, communications of routes and arrivals, lack of side tracks for failed equipment, poor reliability, etc. are fixed in place or, after over 20 years, apparently incurable, and unlikely to be affordably and/or feasibly fixed at this point.  These items, IMHO, add up to irrevocably doom the system.

As to your comparison to MARTA, or to go further, systems like the DC Metro, NY Subways, or the Bay Area's BART, we are talking apples and oranges.  Those trains can move hundreds to a thousand or more per train.  The Sky-high-way vehicles can move maybe 40 people in a perfect world.  Yet, Municipal Stadium is just as big or bigger than the stadiums in those cities.  So, if MARTA needs, say 5 to 10 trains to clear out a crowd, it would take hundreds of $ky-high-way trips.  And, yes, Ock will say cars can be added.  But, given the short length and size of the $ky-high-way platforms, the result won't change by much.

I figured the Jefferson lot was private but the $ky-high-way platform has a facing in its direction so I found it curious that side wouldn't be fully open.  It's clear from the damage to the poles and wires that many have entered the station from the dirt lot over time.  The least JTA could do is open gates on that side to make it easier to attract extra business, from whatever direction.

[Ocklawaha]

STJR, this is beneath you. Some people see only what they want to see.  You claiming to offer a balanced unbiased "test"  with your well known pre-conceived anti Skyway notions is comical. Your opinion is so prejudiced that you can't write "$ky-high-way" without your slanted opinion coming through.

I'd love to revisit your post perhaps tomorrow evening as I'll be out of town most of the day and see if we can make a balanced opinion of the performance of the SKYway.


OCKLAWAHA

[stjr]

STJR, this is beneath you. Some people see only what they want to see.  You claiming to offer a balanced unbiased "test"  with your well known pre-conceived anti Skyway notions is comical. Your opinion is so prejudiced that you can't write "$ky-high-way" without your slanted opinion coming through.

I'd love to revisit your post perhaps tomorrow evening as I'll be out of town most of the day and see if we can make a balanced opinion of the performance of the SKYway.


OCKLAWAHA

Ock, shoot away.  I never said anything about "unbiased" or "balanced", but most of my account is opining on facts I actually observed or experienced.  You should be thrilled as that's actually "$ky-high" over (not "beneath") what is mostly posted here about the $ky-high-way.  Of course, I am sure your "well known pre-conceived" pro  $ky-high-way notions, that are just as comical   to me, won't prejudice your opinionated response.  

Safe travels and we'll have some more "comedy" tomorrow.  Too bad the taxpayers have to pay badly needed-elsewhere millions a year for the source of our "entertainment".  

[spuwho]

While I think the Skyway has potential, I agree it has many issues and there is room for improvement.

The comments by stjr appeared to go out of his way to complain.

If one doesn't like something, and wants everyone to know, then they will typically find everything wrong with it.

Of all the stations on the Skyway, Jefferson is probably used the least and vandalized the most.

I would ask stjr to try the Skyway during the next Gator Bowl parade and see if they have the same perspective.

JTA can make it run effectively, I have seen it. The Jazz Festival, while important, probably didn't rate so high as to warrant special attention. Unfortuntate, but a sign that it needs some strategic focus.

[lindab]

It seems to me that stjr is reporting his own personal experience with the Skyway. If Skyway is going to appeal to more riders and become an effective form of transit in Jacksonville, more work has got to be done on the very simple things that he reported. Why is that a problem?

[stjr]

While I think the Skyway has potential, I agree it has many issues and there is room for improvement.

To say the least!

The comments by stjr appeared to go out of his way to complain.

Hmmm... you weren't there, so how would you know?  What did I point out that was "out of the way"?
I certainly found all the fellow riders I spoke with,  or overheard, of  a similar opinion to mine.

If one doesn't like something, and wants everyone to know, then they will typically find everything wrong with it.

If nothing was wrong with the $ky-high-way, maybe people would ride it.  Proof is in the pudding.  You can stick your head in the ground, but the problems are real and people notice.  If you can't handle the facts, sorry. Wishing away complaints isn't going to make the $ky-high-way any more feasible.

Of all the stations on the Skyway, Jefferson is probably used the least and vandalized the most.

If they open a station, take care of it.  If they don't want to support it, close it.  This is a lousy excuse for poor management.  But, then, you only want to cover for JTA, not fix the problem, eh?

I would ask stjr to try the Skyway during the next Gator Bowl parade and see if they have the same perspective.

Most of the issues I cited are "built in" and additional experiences aren't going to change them.  Further, over the last few years on MJ, the operational issues have been consistently reported by less defensive posters.  You can always say "try again" but most businesses don't rely on "second chances".  They try, and need, to get it right the first time.

JTA can make it run effectively, I have seen it.

Less than 99% reliability isn't going to cut it.  Do you accept failure rates like this from your doctor, JEA, your car, internet or phone service, flying a plane, etc.?  I don't think so.  Lack of reliability is a sure course to failure.  Once again, ignore the problem at your own peril.

The Jazz Festival, while important, probably didn't rate so high as to warrant special attention. Unfortuntate, but a sign that it needs some strategic focus.

If tens of thousands of local taxpayers downtown doesn't rate "so high", then what does?  Just what does rate running the $ky-high-way?  You are supporting my point that the answer is "not much", if anything.  Thanks.

It seems to me that stjr is reporting his own personal experience with the Skyway. If Skyway is going to appeal to more riders and become an effective form of transit in Jacksonville, more work has got to be done on the very simple things that he reported. Why is that a problem?

Lindab, of course it's my personal experience.  And, apparently that of many, many, others.  It's a problem because the fixes are not "very simple" and certainly not cost effective.  Reread my post and tell me how you cost effectively rebuild the stations larger, increase the capacity of the system, add sidings for inoperative vehicles without shutting down the whole system to clear the tracks, fix the quality of the ride or the seating and dimensions of the vehicles, or rebuild the automation system that fails to readily accommodate human intervention?  Yes, the turnstiles, gates, and signage could be fixed, but even this may cost more than you would imagine.  Why do think JTA hasn't already fixed it?  By the way, even those "simple" fixes probably would cost far more than those extra bus shelters everyone wants.  Wouldn't it be better bang for buck to build the bus shelters that JTA claims it can't fund if money is so tight?

Let's face it, there are a core group of $ky-high-way "lovers" here that are equally, or I dare say, more so, passionate about defending the $ky-high-way and overlooking its deficiencies, regardless of their significance.  That's fine, but all that passion is not shared by the community at large and that's why, facts are facts, no one rides this and ridership has continuously declined over 20 years.  Take off those rose tinted glasses and see this thing for what it is. We need to send it to the scrap yard so we can free up some $14 million a year for street cars and other superior mass transit solutions.  Yes, that's my fact-based opinion (and lots of other citizens) and you are entitled to yours.

[Keith-N-Jax]

^^^ This. Is it the skyway fault? or the people who designed it.

[stjr]

STJR's observations are spot on, but I think his conclusions were foregone, rather than resultiing from.

Thanks for the charitable consideration, Stephen.    I would only add no more foregone than the response in the works from Ock!  

4. It can no way handle more than a few people and would never work with a real rush hour crush, major events, or a bevy of conventioneers using it to return at once to downtown hotels.  Forget about it ever being useful for Jaguar games or the stadium.

This is groundless.   The cars fit together and can be expanded in order to accomodate more people.  It will have to be expanded to allow longer trains to queue up, but that would be part of the actual line to the stadium.

Yes, I already acknowledged this forthcoming tidbit, once again, from Ock.  But expanding the cars is limited to the size of the platforms and what I saw Sunday was just how small they really are, both in length, and capacity to hold much over 100 people safely.  Short of massively rebuilding the stations, I don't see much more than an "academic" expansion of capacity.

Stephen, you also fail to consider that if the queue time is longer than alternative transit modes, including walking, what's the point of taking the $ky-high-way?  There is a break even point here in terms of time and it appears to me to be far beyond the reach of this system under the best of circumstances.  But, you are free to fantasize.

[lindab]

I remember when the opportunity to get federal money for transit other than buses came along. It was a "hurry-up and apply deal" promoted by Rep. Corrine Brown. The whole concept was have a transit system that wouldn't interfere with cars. Wow, what a concept.

[Charles Hunter]

lindab, if you're talking about the original Skyway money, Charlie Bennett was our Congressman.  Was Rep. Brown in office for any of the Skyway expansions?  I'm not sure, but don't think so.

[stjr]

^^^ This. Is it the skyway fault? or the people who designed it.

Keith,  in my mind, the "design," in this case, equals what is the Sky-high-way so not sure this distinction is important. But, the fact that similar people movers have failed in other cities to come anywhere close to expectations fully convinces me the concept is inherently flawed.

To your implied point of where final responsibility lies, I have to blame the owner/operator/project manager as the ultimate repository of responsibility, and that would be .... JTA.  Kind of like BP and the oil spill.  It wasn't their rig (Transocean's) and they were not the ones to cap the well (Haliburton) but it's their project and they have overall responsibility.  And you see that in the views of the press, government, and the public.