Jacksonville: The Next Detroit?

[RiversideGator]

Lake:  I think we tend to think of changing the built environment because that is what we are most interested in (notwithstanding my current profession).  But I think the truth is the changes must take place in the heart.  People need to understand what is proper behavior and act accordingly.  No amount of money or new housing will make people act honorably.  There are plenty of rich dirtbags and plenty of poor saints.  I have met many of each.

[RiversideGator]

BTW, regarding the inner city problems, I recommend reading Walter Williams, who is a brilliant black economist who often writes on the issues which face the black community.  He has a different take on things.  Here is one of his columns on the topic:

Is Politics The Way?
by Walter Williams  (November 3, 2004)

Black politicians and the civil rights establishment take it as an act of faith that progress for black people requires racial politics and government programs. How about examining this vision with a few simple, common-sense questions?

Whether you're black, white or polka dot, in order to take advantage of opportunities, you must be prepared. A large part of that preparation is to get a decent K-12 education. In order for children to do well in school, there are some minimum requirements that must be met. Someone must make them do their homework, see to it that they get a good night's rest, fix a breakfast, and make sure they get to school on time and obey school authorities. This is not rocket science, but here's my question. Can those requirements be satisfied by a president, congressman or mayor?

If those requirements aren't met, there's little hope that a child will get the academic preparation necessary to take advantage of opportunities. Spending more money on education cannot replace poor parenting. If it could, black academic achievement would be much higher than it is.

Numerous studies show that children raised in stable two-parent households do far better than those raised in single-parent households. They are less likely to have out-of-wedlock births, less likely to engage in criminal behavior and more likely to complete high school. Historically, black families have been relatively stable. From 1880 to 1960, the proportion of black children raised in two-parent families held steady at around 70 percent; in 1925 Harlem, it was 85 percent. Today, only 38 percent of black children are raised in two-parent families. In 1940, black illegitimacy was 16 percent; today, it's 70 percent. Stable two-parent families are vital for a child's development. The solution to the problem of unstable families won't be found in the political arena. There's nothing a president, congressman or mayor can do.

In many black neighborhoods, businessmen must install bars and roll-down gates for their storefronts, hire security guards and pay high insurance rates. Security precautions add significantly to the cost of business, and who do you think pays these extra costs? The businessman pays in the form of a lower return, and his customers pay in the form of higher prices and less convenience.

A tiny percentage of the black community is allowed to impose high costs on its overwhelmingly law-abiding residents. Criminals, vandals and thugs have turned once economically viable shopping areas into economic wastelands. Ensuring public safety is a job of politicians, and they fail miserably. The police, courts and jails allow thugs to prey on the black community with near impunity.

Solutions to the most serious problems that black Americans face will not be found in the political arena. Otherwise, the problems would have been long solved with the civil rights legislation, litigation and the more than $8 trillion spent on poverty programs since 1965. Or the problems would have been solved by the two terms of President Clinton, whom some blacks have called the first black president.

Perhaps the biggest roadblock to finding solutions is the widely held vision of the problem black people face, namely racial discrimination. That vision calls for civil rights strategies. The truth of the matter is that the black civil rights struggle is over and it's won. At one time, black Americans did not enjoy the constitutional protections enjoyed by others. Today, there are no constitutional protections not enjoyed by blacks. That's not to say that every vestige of discrimination has been eliminated. It is to say that the devastating problems facing a large proportion of the black community are not civil rights problems and the solution won't be found in the political arena.


About the Author

Born in Philadelphia in 1936, Walter E. Williams holds a bachelor's degree in economics from California State University (1965) and a master's degree (1967) and doctorate (1972) in economics from the University of California at Los Angeles.

http://capmag.com/article.asp?ID=4012

[thelakelander]

Lake:  I think we tend to think of changing the built environment because that is what we are most interested in (notwithstanding my current profession).  But I think the truth is the changes must take place in the heart.  People need to understand what is proper behavior and act accordingly.  No amount of money or new housing will make people act honorably.  There are plenty of rich dirtbags and plenty of poor saints.  I have met many of each.

The article is another subject altogether, than from what I'm talking about.  There are parts that I agree and disagree with, but that's for another discussion.

Of course everything starts and stops with will power and the willingness of a person to change.  Sure you'll have exceptions, however, if a person is largely exposed to a certain set of lower standards, most likely those are the values they'll proceed through life with.

A better physical environment helps give a child the opportunity to have a better heart by installing values that may be largely absent in their current surroundings.  By changing the physical environment, I'm not talking about new posh housing and development.  I'm talking about having an influx of residents that are educated and have the will power to succeed and make something of themselves in life.  I'm talking about filling neighborhoods with residents who can serve as good examples by the way they go about living their lives and carrying for their property, neighbors and surroundings.    Speaking from personal experience, this can have a much larger affect on young impressionable lives than most acknowledge.

[sheclown]

Right On Lakelander!

As long as the city uses "containment" to isolate those communities (and I doubt we are talking race here, but rather socio-economic issues) instead of requiring all members of the greater Jacksonville community to accept their fair share of marginalized people, then nothing will change.  If, like Lakelander suggests, communities are willing to absorb and care for those neighbors in trouble, especially by setting an example, the problem can be resolved.

[jaxlore]

I agree with lakelander in his last post...but second_pancake...

Ok so if these kids are not getting the parenting they need at home, the motivation, the support, desire to succeed. Please tell me how you propose and fixing that? Kids at a young age can be influenced by strong role models, teachers in this case. I would think that most teachers teach to make a difference not be a fcat statistic. But if all they can do is barely keep a class under control don't you think that teacher needs more support in the class room to actually be able to teach students and challenge them? And asking me if I had job placement is a mute question i went to mandarin high school and had good role models that encouraged me to go to college not work at krystal's.

i with fightingosprey07 on this. You can bring the crime rate down with enforcement, but the only way to keep it down is to change the neighborhoods through better education, better role models, better job opportunities.  If a kid gets railroaded through high school and gets out barely being able to read, has no one to tell him there are opportunities out there for them, what do you expect them to do. I do think the Mayors reading program is one that will pay off, but in reality the school systems are the ones who are not doing the job. Guidance counselor's at high schools are a joke. If a kid is not going to college then we should have job counselors to help them become productive members of society. Kids spend more time worrying about the clothes they where then what they can do in the future. I could go on for hours about this. But as a society we need to start caring more about people and less about material b$.

Well, you got the last part of your comment right.  But, how is providing greater education through schools going to prevent them from caring about clothes?  It won't. In fact, putting all those kids together in one place where there are cliques and various social groups, only exaserbates the appearence issue.  Kids act out and do things, sometimes illegal things, to either get attention or to fit into a certain group they want to be a part of.  You can't "teach" this behavior out of them.  They're kids, more importantly, teenagers, and that's just what they do.  It's the parents responsibility to manage just how far their need to be a part of a social group, or the need to express themselves is taken.

Regarding job counselors, school is there to give kids the tools they need...basic tools, to survive.  It's not there to teach them a trade or provide an apprenticeship.  That's what college and specialty schools, that are funded privately, not by taxpayers, are for.  You are not, nor should you ever be, guaranteed a job or job placement out of highschool.  You should now have the tools to fend for yourself, so do it.  Finding a job and creating a life requires, among other things, thought and ambition...a desire to do something and not rely on others to provide things to or for you.  When you are taught a sense of entitlement, you will never work to do anything with your life and will only feel as if others have let you down which will create resentment and hatred, thus leading to a life of crime, or a life filled with addictions.

Let me ask you this, if YOU had job placement and job education provided to you in your school and were provided a place to work right out of highschool, do you think you would feel good about yourself today?  Do you think you'd be more successful, equally successful, or less?  Would you look to others to continue to 'help' you along your life's journey, or would you work hard to make it on your own?

[second_pancake]

Ok so if these kids are not getting the parenting they need at home, the motivation, the support, desire to succeed. Please tell me how you propose and fixing that? Kids at a young age can be influenced by strong role models, teachers in this case. I would think that most teachers teach to make a difference not be a fcat statistic. But if all they can do is barely keep a class under control don't you think that teacher needs more support in the class room to actually be able to teach students and challenge them? And asking me if I had job placement is a mute question i went to mandarin high school and had good role models that encouraged me to go to college not work at krystal's

You had good parents who gave a damn.  Violence begets violence.  Indignency begets indignency.  Ignorance begets ignorance.  If there are parents out there who don't give a crap one way or the other about their own life, how can we expect them to care about their children?  I agree people can be good role models, but if that child already has in his/her mind that they are going to grow up and be a gangster like mom or dad, you can beat right from wrong in their heads all day long and they aren't going to care. 

The kids you are talking about are the ones that are still young and impressionable.  The ones I'm talking about are the ones that started killing puppies since the day they could walk, who raped girls at the age of 9, and looked up to the rap-stars who lead lives of excess and violence and make money off of selling it to others.  You can't bring a group of these children into a classroom and expect to get all Joe Clark on their ass and then everything will be good.  They don't need more education, they need harsh reality.  There needs to be consequences to peoples actions and until there are, the criminals will continue to be criminals with no regard for anyone they come into contact with.

I guess what it all really boils down to is force.  In order to get these criminals to come around, you have to force them to care...whether you do it when they're young before they actually have committed any crimes (at-risk kids), or as some sort of intervention after they've committed crimes.  That goes against human nature.  Someone changes because they WANT to change...truely want to, not because someone forced them to.  When you're dealing with people who have no moral basis for their actions and simply react without thought, how do you get them to want to care?

[thelakelander]

The kids you are talking about are the ones that are still young and impressionable.  The ones I'm talking about are the ones that started killing puppies since the day they could walk, who raped girls at the age of 9, and looked up to the rap-stars who lead lives of excess and violence and make money off of selling it to others.  You can't bring a group of these children into a classroom and expect to get all Joe Clark on their ass and then everything will be good.  They don't need more education, they need harsh reality.  There needs to be consequences to peoples actions and until there are, the criminals will continue to be criminals with no regard for anyone they come into contact with.

They say, you can't teach an old dog new tricks.  While there will always be an exception or two, I think the current generation may be lost.  This is a problem that took decades to create and will take decades to ultimately turn around, which is why its important to target the youth at an early age.

[JeffreyS]

I am a believer in tipping points and that we often underestimate how fast things can change.  On education discipline in the classroom can be a different dynamic with the addition or loss of five students or just a trouble makers.  An employer or two can suddenly lift the economic prospects of an area which will lower crime.  A few professional people living on a street can change attitudes about what can be accomplished in life.  Better law enforcement in an area can help people to see they can live trying to better their situation and not just keep their heads down. These are not easy situations to change but like rail systems it does not have to take as long as it often does.

I am not the biggest fan of many welfare systems because some will always try to "get over" on us but they are cheaper than prison systems.

[thebrokenforum]

In my opinion, number #3 (leadership) should be number one. Leadership in this city is terrible. I've been in these neighborhoods a lot when I worked in EMS; the civic leaders here talk a good game but few if any of them are out in the community talking to people. Who from the city, on a regular basis, talks to these people besides detectives and paramedics?

Communication is almost always one of the main solutions to any problem and communication between these so-called bad neighborhoods and the city leaders is poor. The only city employees out in these neighborhoods on a regular basis are cops & firefighters and that sends a strong message. Relations are so poor in some neighborhoods that often cops & firefighters aren't welcomed when their needed and that's just sad. 

Besides the suggestions alreay made we need to get back to basics. The city needs to open the lines of communication and remove the stigma the media has created here. Make no mistake; there are a large number of people here that wear the murder rate stat like it's some kind of badge of honor. People brag about it like it's something to be proud of. The media thrives on this night after night. I agree that change comes from within but strong leadership and leading by example go a long way.


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http://thebrokenforum.wordpress.com/

[Coolyfett]

Wow this topic is on Fire!!!! I don't how I missed this one!!!

[Coolyfett]

The problem starts before "home".  The parents of most troubled teens are products of broken homes and troubled teens themselves.  It took over a hundred years to create many of these problems and there's no reason to believe it won't take just as long to fix most of them.

WHOA!!!!! one of the smallest post that makes the most sense!!!! Once again Lake you hit it on the head.....your a genius.

Everyone look these "gremlins" were created in fatherless homes. Bad people create bad people. We don't get our habits and traits from thin air people!! F. the mayor and sheriff and teachers and all the other excuse people are naming. These "gremlins" were created by their parent(s). The Crackbabies have grown up.  Don't you people get it?!?!? Most of todays current "gremlins" were born between 1982-1990 The FRIGGING CRACK YEARS!!!......Watch the movie Gremlins if you ever get a chance. Those things will look very familiar.


"The Scenario"
Young girl (17-20) has a child with man who doesn't care nor love her.

Young girl continues to have fun like she doesn't have a child (grandmother has the child).

Young girl has another child with another man (not the first baby daddy)

She also continues to run around and have fun like she has no children.

Grandma stops helping/dies

NOW young mother has to work because in her early days she was too busy having a gay ole time.

Oh yea she just had a third child.

Young mother works hard at her low paying job to feed her 3 kids, but she works so hard, she still needs to get her party on....after all shes a grown woman now.

Now the kids are teenagers...mom was always working. Oldest child looked up to the older kids in the "hood" while younger siblings looked up to the eldest child. Mother is so busy working 2 jobs, she has no clue what her 3 kids are doing.

The two boys are selling drugs/crimes and the daughter is having sex....but if you ask the mom...all she'll tell you is "she got some good kids"   

Now for all you normal people take this scenario and multiply it by 10,000 = Jacksonville's Problem.

"Gremlins" don't want jobs or education....they were not taught to want it. They were taught to do what they want and have fun(even if someone is killed)...by you know who...Dear Mama.

I'm Coolyfett and I approve this message.

[rgold]

I have been in Jacksonville all of my life. I am very sorry to say, it has gone downhill. The community has to pull together with the police. So many people dislike the police. Try joining ShAdCo-Jacksonville Sheriffs Council. We are the eyes for the community and Police. I only call when I see something very dangerous or something illegal. I am the Chairperson for the old Arlington Area Zone 2 Sector D. You can go to the Regency Substation, sign up for "Ride-A-Longs" To ride with your local police. You have to go 3 days in advance. They will do a background check. You have to wear black shoes, professional attire.You would not believe what they go through, DAILY! We, the people and community need to stand up and help the police. I know I'll get a lot of heat from all of you, but this is how I feel. We have not had any "New Police" in 5 yrs or more. We've had alot of the long timer police retire. They might have been replaced with new staff, but no increase in officers in 5 yrs! Let's all pull together and help Jacksonville, the kids, the community, the police, the city! :)We DONNOT want the Boston Experience! It's also amazing how many people are moving out of Jacksonville, but still work here. We want them to stay. Thanks for listening Jacksonville!

[rgold]

I also forgot to mention signing up for the Citizen's Police Academy! It is an intense 12 week course. You learn all of the internal depts of the JSO. It is one of the best courses I have ever taken! The best thing about it is: IT"S FREE! You also have graduation day too! The Officer who heads up the class, Cindy Leavens is highly organized and knows her stuff. She's very energetic and good! This helps you become more aware of what's going on in Jacksonville. I also have to compliment Jacksonville for training our officers as "Paramilitary". A very tough program to go through for the police students.Kudos to JSO!

[Coolyfett]

Rgold....Tell us more about people moving out of Jax but still working in Jax. Where does that information come from?

[rgold]

Individuals that I work with.Some come from Gainesville, Callahan etc. Also when I talked to the Sheriff Rutherford.