Jacksonville: The Next Detroit?

[fightingosprey07]

Pancake, you're right that a lot of money has been dumped into education to improve it, but more money won't fix the problem. You're also right that the education is there if the student wants it, but a good teacher is able to make the students want to learn. Right now, the best teachers don't want to teach in the bad schools, so it only makes the situation worse.

[Driven1]

it is a social responsibility problem at its heart.  you could give a million dollars to each troubled, inner-city family and it won't make them care for and disclipline their child.  in fact, it probably would have the opposite effect.  more money for "education" is not the problem.  i'm not sure there really is a solution to make parents be parents??

[stephenc]

But can you blame good teachers for not going to bad schools. The problem starts in the home. When you have parents who dont care, that will rub off on the children and its an endless cycle.

[thelakelander]

The problem starts before "home".  The parents of most troubled teens are products of broken homes and troubled teens themselves.  It took over a hundred years to create many of these problems and there's no reason to believe it won't take just as long to fix most of them.

[RiversideGator]

The problem starts before "home".  The parents of most troubled teens are products of broken homes and troubled teens themselves.  It took over a hundred years to create many of these problems and there's no reason to believe it won't take just as long to fix most of them.

Except that the inner city pathologies did not even really exist 50 years ago.  All bad statistics (crime, high school drop out rate, out of wedlock births, etc) were better 50 years ago than now.  So, what has happened in the intervening years to change this?  Well, first you had the liberals come in and say that it is your body so you can do whatever you want with it and they also polluted the culture through movies, television and other media thereby encouraging sexual experimentation.  Then the government came in and said that they would be the new daddy and provide for the children of out of wedlock relationships.  Next, with children decoupled from fathers, the now barely supervised kids were left to their own devices and were influenced instead by the increasingly filthy culture (see rap music, misogyny, etc).  Add to this less community policing and less effective early intervention by law enforcement and families to nip trouble in the bud and you have a vicious downward spiral into anarchy.

[JeffreyS]

1. We need more police.  If we didn't already have problems we may be able to make our current force work. We are behind however and current economic conditions will make it worse.

2. Reallocation to problem areas will help. Higher response times in calmer areas is hard but you have to prioritize.

3. Give Police officers property tax breaks and low interest loans to buy homes(they reside in) in or near problem  areas to increase presence and sense of community.

[thelakelander]

The problem starts before "home".  The parents of most troubled teens are products of broken homes and troubled teens themselves.  It took over a hundred years to create many of these problems and there's no reason to believe it won't take just as long to fix most of them.

Except that the inner city pathologies did not even really exist 50 years ago.  All bad statistics (crime, high school drop out rate, out of wedlock births, etc) were better 50 years ago than now.  So, what has happened in the intervening years to change this?  Well, first you had the liberals come in and say that it is your body so you can do whatever you want with it and they also polluted the culture through movies, television and other media thereby encouraging sexual experimentation.  Then the government came in and said that they would be the new daddy and provide for the children of out of wedlock relationships.  Next, with children decoupled from fathers, the now barely supervised kids were left to their own devices and were influenced instead by the increasingly filthy culture (see rap music, misogyny, etc).  Add to this less community policing and less effective early intervention by law enforcement and families to nip trouble in the bud and you have a vicious downward spiral into anarchy.

I'm not going to jump into whether the cause is the fault of liberals or conservatives, but the failing of the inner city is only a result of failing of society as a whole.  Crime, out-of wedlock births, fatherless homes, etc. are up across the board.  However, when you mix poverty into the situation its always going to get worse. 

There is no secret or one thing to solve this problem.  Its going to take a mixture of things from several sources (ex. better police enforcement, schools, changing the local physical environment, work opportunities, etc.) along with the will of those in these conditions to want to change for the better.

3. Give Police officers property tax breaks and low interest loans to buy homes(they reside in) in or near problem  areas to increase presence and sense of community.

I'd like to see the implementation of a tax abatement program for any resident who is willing to move to the inner city because some incentive is needed if we want things to change.  Being around people who care about their community and property that can serve as good visible role models to their neighbors can go a long way in dealing with many of the problems our inner cities face today.

[mbarilla]

I have a question.

I am from Gainesville, a small town that has (3) police forces: Alachua County Sheriff's Office, City of Gainesville Police, and University of Florida Police. Now, for a city the size of Gainesville, that's an awful lot of overlapping police jurisdiction.

So my question is, do you think the fact that Jacksonville has one police department for every square inch of Duval County MAY in fact hinder their effectiveness? With Gainesville as an example, each police force focuses on their area of jurisdiction, whether it's campus, the city limits or rural outlying areas. In Jacksonville, that obviously can't happen since there's no one but the JPO.

It just seems to me that , in a city that covers this much area and has so many poor and crime ridden neighborhoods, there needs to be more than one police department. It just doesn't make sense to me.

[thelakelander]

I don't think so.  Cities like Indianapolis and Nashville would have crime rates similar to Jacksonville's if consolidation was the issue.  By the same token, the Detroits, Garys, East St. Louis and Camden, NJs of the world aren't consolidated and have crime levels well above Jacksonville's.

[Driven1]

The problem starts before "home".  The parents of most troubled teens are products of broken homes and troubled teens themselves.  It took over a hundred years to create many of these problems and there's no reason to believe it won't take just as long to fix most of them.

good point...i agree with this.

[Matt]

I'd like to see the implementation of a tax abatement program for any resident who is willing to move to the inner city because some incentive is needed if we want things to change.  Being around people who care about their community and property that can serve as good visible role models to their neighbors can go a long way in dealing with many of the problems our inner cities face today.

this is true, but it really depends on if the people in the neighborhood want change. well sure the nice ones don't want crime, but then obviously they aren't commiting the crimes, and criminals aren't going to look up to 'model citizens' (unless you talk to them at a young age, or something...). they may see them as a threat to their 'empire of crime' (excuse my conspiracy theory), many people don't want new guys in their neighborhoods unless they want new targets.

my dickens-like ponderings aside, you never know until you try i guess

big brother big sister programmes are extremely helpful with kids who are missing parents. 

one thing i have noticed is a somewhat heightened glamourization of the world and life of crime by rap(not all rap). hip hop used to be a way to express oneself and talk about real stuff and try to make change. rap, is money hoes cars clothes (duhn duhn duhn duhn duhn duhn duhn) and guns. crime has always been somewhat glamourized, but not so much as has been seen lately. people that listen to hardcore violent rap (and other genres for that matter(excuse my persecution)) have a violent arrogant aire, and i know you can't censor artists, but i wish something could be done.

more police funding can't solve the problem, and even though i would like to believe so higher penalties won't solve the problem- both just make sneakier criminals.  this is just one of those things. social class, racial/cultural, and religious conflicts will always be the source of problems sadly, so i suppose (like lakelander said) being a good example is the best we can do. giving the people reason to believe that there is no reason to want to be criminal would be great, but unfortunately crime pays.

you can't completely stop crime without creepy 1984-like tactics; national registry, cameras....thought police....

[thelakelander]

this is true, but it really depends on if the people in the neighborhood want change. well sure the nice ones don't want crime, but then obviously they aren't commiting the crimes, and criminals aren't going to look up to 'model citizens' (unless you talk to them at a young age, or something...). they may see them as a threat to their 'empire of crime' (excuse my conspiracy theory), many people don't want new guys in their neighborhoods unless they want new targets.

Other than enhancing the physical environment (ex. programs like tax abatement to repopulate these neighborhoods with hard working citizens, etc.), which in turn could lead to the enchancement of the social environment, throwing money at these problems won't solve them. 

I believe many of our social problems are the result of things that happened over several years and will take us years to overcome.  It may be too late for today's generation, but its not for tomorrow's.  Change a process that needs to have some impact in people at an early age.  If you want people to have the will to change, then those values need to be installed at a very early age, imo. 

[GatorDone]

reednavy - not sure you want to get as bad as New Orleans, they led the US in murder rate for several years prior to Katrina. Actually, that may be our solution, lets have a hurricane.

I do not have a clue as to what the solution is, but throwing more cops on the street is not going to stop anything. Crime is a reactive event for the police, a crime happens, the police are called. You put 2 cops in the place of 1, the crime moves to were there is now only 1 cop.

Also, a 40% drop out rate in Duval County schools is not helping the problem.

More money for schools and police? HELL NO! How about holding the leaders of this city's law enforcement and educational systems accountable. Jax needs to tell its city leaders to get off their redneck asses and put the corrupt political ways aside. WE WANT RESULTS OR WE WILL REPLACE YOU, PERIOD! - but then again, when 90% of the city hates Payton and only 10% show up to the polls during his reelection, that is not likely to happen now is it?

[RiversideGator]

I'm not going to jump into whether the cause is the fault of liberals or conservatives, but the failing of the inner city is only a result of failing of society as a whole.  Crime, out-of wedlock births, fatherless homes, etc. are up across the board.  However, when you mix poverty into the situation its always going to get worse. 

The point is that crime, out of wedlock births, etc. are the symptoms of a larger problem - many people in our society from all walks of life do not adhere to the traditional norms and they suffer as a result.  There are practical as well as moral reasons why a girl should not have a child before she gets married.  One person is simply less financially and physically able to care for a child and a child needs a father figure in his/her lives also.  This leads to poverty just as sure as does a lack of education.  In fact, take 2 people who get married, both obey the law, and dont drink or use drugs, stay married and work and they will not be poor even if they have just high school degrees (barring disability or something like that).  It really is as simple as that.

I think part of the problem is the paternalistic attitude many people have towards the poor.  The truth is they are mostly rational people who respond to stimuli like anyone else.  Treat them as such.  If you want more out of wedlock births, for example, then give special treatment to those mothers and benefits and then have society tell them it is normal.  If you want less of it, you give them no aid, take away their kids if they cannot care for them and put them in foster care, and have society stigmatize illegitimacy again.  This works for all races and all people in any era, I promise.  It is a simple rule of economics:  if you want more of something, subsidize it; if you want less of something, tax it.

[thelakelander]

I agree that throwing money at the situation will not help it.  However, neither will turning our backs to it.  I don't have all the answers, but I do believe changing the physical environment can improve overall conditions in the long run.  The key is to find a way to naturally change that environment.