Jesse Helms Dead.

[Clem1029]

actually you have to go way back to the beginning of the thread to see the original context.  And Clem has thoughtfully removed two of his posts, for which I do not blame him.

Pardon me? What two posts did I remove? Haven't removed anything since my last post over an hour ago. Sure you're not projecting again?

[Clem1029]

As I said before self-inflicted (which isn't my term.. it was the term already being used) is defined to include conscious decision making being the first domino to fall... then contracting the disease from unprotected sex, straight or gay, is self-inflicted.

Thank you...this is basically what I've been trying to get across since the start of this discussion. I'm with you, I don't think "self-inflicted" is the term, but I'm open for another suggestion for sake of the discussion.

[Tripoli1711]

How about "preventable"?

[Tripoli1711]

I understand that, Stephen, but you still fail to ascertain my point.  Read your analogy from the prior post.  You drew your analogy in an attempt to put what I was saying another way.  All I was saying is that in order for your analogy to accurately state what it was I was saying, you needed to amend it to driving recklessly.

I understand that you can get killed when driving most prudently, just like you can get AIDS from a negligently given blood transfusion while you lay there unconscious.

That wasn't the point I was trying to make.

[Clem1029]

How about "preventable"?

I think you have it there...avoiding certain actions makes the disease mostly preventable. I could work with that phrasing...

[buckethead]

I would not catagorize the contraction of A.I.D.S. as self inflicted.

If it term self inflicted included having unprotected sex with random/casual partners, I have most certainly have self inflicted Aids upon myself.

I could call myself neglegent, as well as fortunate not to have contracted diseases in the years of my youthful indiscretion.

The term self inflicted seems to imply that a person "had it coming" or planned for the outcome. I see that as a bit unfair. Wreckless is a word that is still a bit strong, but is more accurate for cases of aids where random and frequent unprotected sex was the cause.

[finehoe]

If one views a definition of self-inflicted as being "brought about upon one's self due to one's own actions and decisions", which from my brief review appears to be what Clem was arguing, then I think it fits.

Heart disease, lung cancer, diabetes, to name some the top killers in this country are all due for the most part on one's own actions and decisions and are preventable.  How is AIDS any different?

[Tripoli1711]

Sometimes it does get frustrating to get into these situations man because you seem to convince yourself that I, or someone else, has an underlying motive or philosophy which 1) I don't have and 2) causes you misinterpret pretty plain English.


If one is out having unprotected sex with new partners and contracts AIDS therefrom a few things are true.

1) They could have acted more prudently (see: use a condom and/or confirm your partner does not have AIDS)
2) They don't deserve to die.
3) They never the less contracted AIDS based upon the conscious decision to have unprotected sex with an unfamiliar partner....

This can be said to have been "self-inflicted" to use the prior term with a bad connotation
or
Preventable... because from the standpoint of AIDS in this scenario it would have been prevented with use of a condom or unprotected sex with someone who doesn't have AIDS.  

If one is out driving 80 miles per hour on a windy country road during a rainstorm, a few things are true:
1)  They could have acted more prudently (see: slow down, flashers on, pull to side of road if raining too hard)
2)  They don't deserve to die.
3)  They never the less got into a horrible accident when they lost control of their car.  This loss of control was based upon the conscious decision to drive more recklessly than was prudent given road conditions.

This can be said to have been "self-inflicted"... or  Preventable- they could have chosen to drive more safely.

I realize you can get AIDS from a blood transfusion or even though other means in this example (longtime partner cheats on you and gets AIDS without you or your partner knowing, you then get AIDS from the partner)... but from the standpoint of going to a bar, picking someone up, having unprotected sex and getting AIDS... that is fundamentally different than getting Breast Cancer or Schizophrenia.

It just is, Stephen.  I have nothing but empathy for those who have had to deal with AIDS just like I do those who deal with any deadly disease.  Do not ascribe a malevolent philosophy to me where there is none and I think you will find I am right in what I am saying.

[Clem1029]

Because gay people don't really need to have sex.  They just 'choose' to have sex, right?

Fixed that for you...has nothing to do with gay or straight. People in general don't NEED to have sex. Individuals always choose to have sex. Heck, it's not just sex...every action requires a choice, and every choice has consequences. Again, you'll notice I've said nothing about homosexuality - risky lifestyle behaviors and choices know no artificial population boundaries.

Keep imagining I'm some sort of raging bigot...it's funny to watch you try and justify it.

[Tripoli1711]

If one views a definition of self-inflicted as being "brought about upon one's self due to one's own actions and decisions", which from my brief review appears to be what Clem was arguing, then I think it fits.

Heart disease, lung cancer, diabetes, to name some the top killers in this country are all due for the most part on one's own actions and decisions and are preventable.  How is AIDS any different?

I agree 95%.  

This is what is driving me freaking nuts!  I walked into this with the already established term "SELF INFLICTED".

I said it was an inartful term, but used what you quoted to try to explain how it could, in fact, apply to AIDS.   I agree that when you say "self-inflicted" it sounds like you had it coming, etc... which is NOT what I am saying.

I swear to God I don't understand why the default would just be to assume I think everyone who has unprotected sex SHOULD get AIDS and die.  JC man. (Edit:  Not the member, the Lord) Is this board really that vitriolic that the assumption should be the way that is how somebody feels.

Now that I am done almost punching my monitor..

The 5% that I do not agree is that there is a slight difference.  Genetics can make one more likely to get heart disease, lung cancer or diabetes.  Two people can live exactly the same lifestyles and one would get heart disease whereas the other wouldn't.  It is still "self-inflicted" as was being used in what you quoted me because had the person not eaten McDonalds 3 times a week for 30 years, they wouldn't have been anywhere near as likely to get heart disease...

But it isn't quite as dramatic of an example because with AIDS and unprotected sex, it doesn't take years of smoking or eating sweets or fatty meats.. it only takes one time.

[finehoe]

risky lifestyle behaviors and choices know no artificial population boundaries.

Like eating too many fatty foods, being overweight, smoking...all risky lifestyle behaviors and choices that lead to the biggest causes of death in the US.

[Tripoli1711]

You are right Finehoe.. but I would point out that none of those are as preventable as the unprotected sex example.  You can lead a very healthy lifestyle and still get heart disease due to family history, etc.  But, like I said, I agree 95% with your statement.  They are very very similar.

[buckethead]

Now that I am done almost punching my monitor..

DON'T DO IT!

I think many on this site are simply quite sensitive to certain stereotypes. Words have meaning, and although many will twist them to suit their own purpose, we should acknowledge that simple truth. You were right to move away from the term self inflicted, and have handled youself well int his thread.

I don't see your views as over the top. Besides, you'll potentially cost yourself good money as well as risk injuring your hand, should you punch your monitor.

[CS Foltz]

LOL +2

[Sportmotor]

OH GOODY someone really wants to get into the Old Testament?
Yes it did have alot of commandments.. which all makes since...rape is cool if you marry the raped o_O

http://www.youtube.com/v/OFkeKKszXTw



ps you can get aids through blood transfusions that happens to many times