Goodbye Internet Cafes

[RockStar]

Interestingly, there is a place that looks like one of these establishments about to open at Forbes and King in Riverside.  I wonder if this related to that?

I'm 99% sure it's closed already. I live a block away...I think it was the same owner that tried to open the hookah lounge (Al Hilm) there two or so months before and that failed miserably too. Either way, they have no understanding of the neighborhood if they're going to try and put that kind of garbage here. Nobody will support it.

Now if somebody wants to replace the Landing with a multi-story hotel and vegas gaming, I'm all for that...  

[Sportmotor]

I would second that rockstar

[sheclown]

Competent adults should be free to voluntarily gamble with other adults and not be treated like children by the government.

I agree.  I also am uncomfortable with the whole...

(c)   The Council further recognizes that it has an obligation and responsibility to protect its citizens, and in particular its elderly, economically disadvantaged, and youngest citizens, from the use of displays that deceptively mimic slot machines.

when state lotteries do the same.

[Ernest Street]

I wish the former Al Hilm space would be turned into a really comfortable Old School used CD and Vinyl store.

Hey Robert Goodman do you hear me?

We could even import that Northern Yankee device we don't see here called a CD Polisher.

Maybe a freshman DJ mess around area with guest DJ.s performing or experimenting..(like amplify their headphone mix for the whole store)....Occasional Band in the parking lot...It's feasible.

[sheclown]

Hey Ernest Street...We have used CDs and vinyls over at Team Recovery Thrift Store, 1728 N. Main Street, in Springfield.  Plus books, clothing (vintage and just plain been used before and therefore way cheaper than new).

Oftentimes Roland plays Cajun Blues, which I'm told aren't really the blues, but sounds like it to me. (that is when it doesn't sound like a polka).

Come on by, you'll be comfortable.

[fieldafm]

Competent adults should be free to voluntarily gamble with other adults and not be treated like children by the government.

I agree.  I also am uncomfortable with the whole...

(c)   The Council further recognizes that it has an obligation and responsibility to protect its citizens, and in particular its elderly, economically disadvantaged, and youngest citizens, from the use of displays that deceptively mimic slot machines.

when state lotteries do the same.

To me, it would be completely hypocritical to say gambling is immoral or that we have a responsibility to regulate who gets to gamble and who doesn't.  That section of this proposal was just inserted by some self-righteous person, and one that I certainly don't agree with.

The point of these internet cafes are that they are indeed illegal.  JSO was ordering cease and desist orders years ago, but enforcement has been suspended due to various court battles going on now and they are beginning to pop up everywhere again in this vacuum.  

Several other Florida counties have also suspended cease and desist orders until the lawsuits are ruled upon.

The people that tried to shut down such adult entertainment clubs like Dollhouse and Cafe Risque were wrong.  That much I agree.  Those businesses were legal and followed the law.  Just because someone doesnt agree with them, too bad IMO.  The point about these particular internet cafe's business is that they are an illegal farce to the state's gaming laws and regulations.  Rules have been constructed, and to participate in the game you have to operate under the rules.

Like Rockstar said, if there was a casino downtown you'd have to pry me out several nights a week to make it into work the next day.  I have no problem with legal gaming, and it wouldnt matter what my personal views are on the issue b/c the key word is 'legal'.

To frame the argument into a moral issue is IMO fruitless and irrelevant.  I do agree that consenting adults can spend money on any legal activity they chose to.

[sheclown]

To frame the argument into a moral issue is IMO fruitless and irrelevant.  I do agree that consenting adults can spend money on any legal activity they chose to.

You've nailed it.  The wording is what bothers me, too. 

[duvaldude08]

Ive been to one over in arlington and is actually quite. Aside from the machines, they have random drawing and you can win money, etc. And they bring you snacks and provide drinks (soda) as long as you are playing. Me and my friends have because we were bored and had a blast. They are harmless.

[sheclown]

Field, do you have any info on the court cases?  

How do these places work?  How is it operated? 

[fieldafm]

That's the assinine part of it.  You go in to purchase 'internet time' on these 'computers' slot machines.  You enter your internet codes into the computers push virtual lever on the slot machine and this enters you into a series of sweepstakes virtual spinning reels that match up symbols to win or lose and the screen displays if you've won points for your sweepstakes.  Your points can be exchanged for cash and other BS 'prizes'.  They even serve you food and soft drinks, just like any casino.  The internet casino that took over the old Edge 17 building in Murray Hill even fires up the grill and gives you hamburgers on Sundays.

The odds of these 'sweepstakes' are worse than the worst slot machines in Vegas.  The virtual slot machines are internet computers that hook into an internet provider who leases out these machines to the cafes.  

It would be akin to you owning a bar.  Paying 30k to obtain a liquor license.  Paying all necessary excise taxes on the liquor.  Paying sales taxes, etc.  And then some dude opens up a 'social club' next door that sells membership points that you exhange in and only in the confines of your social club for such 'reward points' as beer and mixed drinks.  Since you're not actually 'selling' liquor, you're technically not a saloon/package store and therefore don't have to participate in the established rules of liquor sales.

The Allied Veterans places(the biggest owner of these establishments) kicks in some small pittance of their profits to a veterans charity.  That's like saying Enron was cool for breaking the law b/c gosh darn they were such good stewards of the Houston philanthropic scene.  The Allied Veterans claim that their operations are merely legitimate sweepstakes designed for the fundraising of their charitable contributions(around 5% of their profits go to veterans charities).  An interesting note is that the head of the Allied group makes about half a mil a year for his 'charitable fundrasing activities'.

They try to exploit certain loopholes in the current law.  For instance, every sweepstakes over $5k is subject to the overview of the Florida Dept of Agriculture(how do you like those odds over an entire year???).  Also you can operate a sweepstakes outside the purvey of certain gaming laws by giving away your sweepstakes entries(like when you go to McDonalds and they give you cards to play Monopoly with).  The 'internet cards' they give you are 'free' and then you pay to put 'points' on this card.  The points are what you play with and win money from.  Its like a phone card.  They give you the phone card for free and then you pay to put minutes on it.  Only your minutes are used to gamble.  But gee wiz Beaver, the card is free so its not really gambling.

The State Attorney's office is waiting on several lawsuits to be ruled on at the District Court level before they start prosecuting these cafes(Allied sued the state of Florida in 2009 and the judge ruled that they would instead need to sue in the individual counties).  Sheriffs offices around the state are extremely frustrated with a lot of these symantics(most of the successful shut downs have revolved around violations of zoning laws and incorrect business permit filings), so a lot of localities are trying to put out specific language addressing the specific operations of these cafes to effectively legislate out any of the grey area the cafes are trying to exploit.  There are active lawsuits in Duval, Volusia, Orange, Escambia, Seminole, Marion, Leon, Jackson, Pinellas and Hernando Counties.

Jacksonville's own Kelly Mathis(former Jax Bar Association President) is I believe the head counsel for Allied in most of these cases.


Here's a picture from the Times Union of a gentleman 'using the internet'  

[sheclown]

Thanks for the info Field.

States open the door to this sort of issue when lotteries are allowed.  Or dog races.  This gambling is legal and moral and this isn't?  This type is fair and that type isn't?  Seems crazy to me, but I don't gamble, so I'm ignorant about the details.

Why not make it legal and regulate it?  It would be more logical to have a business category of "internet cafes" monitored and licensed by ordinance than to try to outlaw them on any moral grounds or fuzzy legal ones.  Not only that, but the city could get additional revenue.  

[fieldafm]

Im not aware of the veterans soliciting donations at shopping centers you speak of.  

One of the many loopholes the Allied Veterans group tries to exploit is that they are setup as a non-profit corporation... thus exempt from federal income taxes and exempt from many regulations of the Fl Dept of Agriculture.
They do in fact give some money to charitable organizations, but this is far and away a primary money making venture for the Allied Group and its individual cafe owners(some of the owners wont be mistaken for the stereotypical philanthropist, thats for sure).  Enron and Bernie Madoff gave away more money to charity than you or I could ever imagine, does that make the means of which that money was acquired any more legal?  That's an extreme example and I dont mean to make comparisons from these cafe's to Jeff Skilling et al, but right or wrong is just that... right or wrong.

Gambling is legal in this state and permissible if you abide by certain stipulations.  That's the entire crux of the issue.  If you want to particpate in the gaming industry in this state, you have to follow the rules and be legit.  These cafes are trying to operate in some very extreme grey areas that totally fly in the face of the intent and scope of gambling laws in this state.  Whether gambling is moral or not is irrelevant.

Btw, Kelly Madden is a VERY fine attorney... so they have great representation.

[urbanlibertarian]

These places appear to be pretty crappy compared to Biloxi or Atlantic City style casinos so apparently they only get business because the "real thing" isn't legal here.

[sheclown]

These places appear to be pretty crappy compared to Biloxi or Atlantic City style casinos so apparently they only get business because the "real thing" isn't legal here.

Have you ever been in one?  I haven't.   I'm thinking about checking one out this weekend.  Maybe do a live blog from an internet cafe.  Stephen?  whaddya say?

[thekillingwax]

That'd seriously be like the saddest most boring live blog thing ever.

Some old dude wearing knee socks and flip flops just walked in. He's playing "slots".

Some old lady just won $5. She's only down $70 now!

Someone just got a bag of chips from the vending machine.

Someone named Martha has called JTA six times because the community shuttle hasn't arrived yet.


I'm totally not against gambling but it seems that a lot of people here don't quite understand that it is not gambling, it just looks like it. It's a structured sweepstakes, no different than the McDonald's monopoly game- they make three Park Place pieces and three people find them? They aren't going to add more Park Place pieces into circulation- someone draws a big prize at the start of the day and that means that no one, no matter how much they dump into the "internet console" is going to win much of anything. There is no oversight, no standards or anything like that and the payouts and chances of winning at these things versus any real casino slot machine is a joke.