Mayport Cruise Terminal: Finding Common Ground

[CS Foltz]

stjr..........you failed to mention roads and parking! Not to mention the infrastructure needed to sustain any sized Cruise Vessel but I am sure that "Gate" can handle most of it! Don't forget about waste treatment also! Personally I think ............if "Mayport" does not want a Cruise Ship Terminal, what the hell........build it elsewhere! I am really frustrated with anything being shoved down anyones throat and there are really too many questions,at this point,that have not been answered! Jaxport has no plan B and I will not let one of my tax dollars fund anything regarding a Cruise Terminal...................let them find a developer and good luck in doing so!

[Charles Hunter]

The problem is, there doesn't seem to be anyplace else to put a cruise terminal east of the power lines and Dames Pt. Bridge.  No room on Blount Island, especially with the Marines using the entire eastern half of the island.  North shore of the river is either residential or Timuquan Preserve, or both; south shore is also residential or the Fort Caroline National Monument.  The choice seems to be "Mayport or No Port" for the cruise industry.  JaxPort needs to work with the community - something they didn't do the first time around.

[CS Foltz]

Mr Charles............I agree! There is one aspect no one has commented on and that is the spoils that will result from deepening the River at the port end! If there is the  amount that I think will be removed, there would be more than enough to make an Island and a roadway to it! But thats just my take  on the situation!

[JeffreyS]

The problem is, there doesn't seem to be anyplace else to put a cruise terminal east of the power lines and Dames Pt. Bridge.  No room on Blount Island, especially with the Marines using the entire eastern half of the island.  North shore of the river is either residential or Timuquan Preserve, or both; south shore is also residential or the Fort Caroline National Monument.  The choice seems to be "Mayport or No Port" for the cruise industry.  JaxPort needs to work with the community - something they didn't do the first time around.

Well one of the two groups didn't want to work together but you picked the wrong one.  Ideas were solicited but the only idea the NIMBY's had was jaxport can stick it all the way up with a red hot poker.

[Charles Hunter]

JefferyS - I stand corrected ... both groups need to be willing to work with the other. 

[thelakelander]

Out of curiosity, what impact on the design do the security requirements of Homeland Security/Customs have on access to the waterfront servicing a cruise ship?  Does this cause the waterfront there to be closed down to the public, at least when a ship is in port?

Here's my two cents.  I don't know all of the requirements but the waterfront area servicing a cruise ship would be closed off when the ship is moored.

"MOBILE, Ala. -- Carnival Fantasy's arrival in Mobile brought something new to Cooper Riverside Park -- a pair of police officers to keep people away from lines that secure the vessel while it's dockside at the Alabama Cruise Terminal.

   At 885 feet, Fantasy is 158 feet longer than Holiday, the first ship Carnival placed in Mobile. That means both mooring lines and the required security zone around the cruise ship extend farther north along the Mobile River.

   "We can't let people near those lines unless they're line-handlers," said Sheila Gurganus, the terminal's general manager. "If they were to snap, it would be a danger to whoever is around them."

   Located between the terminal and the Arthur R. Outlaw Mobile Convention Center, the 3-acre Cooper Riverside Park was developed by the city in the mid-1990s at a cost of about $4 million. One of the few spots for public waterfront access in downtown Mobile, it has become popular with both locals and tourists.

   Gurganus said the Cooper Riverside officers are on duty whenever Fantasy is in port, normally every other Thursday, every other Monday, and every other Saturday, from about 6 or 7 a.m. until 4 or 5 in the afternoon. "We never stop anybody from going into the park," Gurganus said."
http://blog.al.com/live/2009/12/longer_cruise_ship_means_extra.html

With that said, there currently is no public waterfront access at the site where the terminal has been proposed.  So if anything, a properly coordinated terminal could include public waterfront access where it currently does not exist.  That would be a plus for the community.

Will it also restrict the river channel when the ship comes and goes?  How does this work now?

Doubt it. In both Mobile and Norfolk, I witnessed other ships come right by.  Here is a shot of one passing the moored cruise ship in Mobile a few weeks ago.

What impact, if any, is there on the ferry dock and operations?

At the least, more traffic would bring more revenue to sustain ferry operations.  Without the additional traffic, the ferry would probably terminated or heavily subsidized by taxpayers to remain operational.

Will hotels for those needing an overnight stay be built in Mayport?  Where?

Other than a small hotel at the Heckscher/9A interchange, the current cruise terminal has not resulted in hotel growth.   Since ships won't be coming most of the week, existing hotels are more likely to benefit from the terminal than new construction.

[thelakelander]

Btw, it seems like Mayport is split on this issue.  The commercial side of the community (shrimpers, Safe Harbor, etc.) wants the terminal.  Without the extra customer base to market to, the waterfront will most likely continue to decline.

stjr..........you failed to mention roads and parking!

Judging from the other terminals mentioned in the article and the original JAXPORT terminal plans, parking would be accommodated within the structure.  The road should be fine.  It will take a lot more than an occasional cruise ship to bring congestion.

[Ocklawaha]

A spoils island should work just fine, in fact the island under the Dame Point Bridge already has some pretty high ground on it and the whole could be elevated enough that we could greatly expand the port, and not just passengers.  The expense would be a tunnel to access the thing. A new draw bridge, perhaps placed under the Dame Point Bridge, could easily clear the larger Panamax Ships headed for Hanjin, Mitsu or Talleyrand. The Union Pacific recently abandoned the Kinzie Street drawbridge in Chicago, has a lift span of 170 feet, and may now be for sale. The new Panamax ships will have a maximum width of 105.64 feet, and at least one Strauss Trunnion bascule bridge draw span exceeds 260 feet.  Built alongside the Dames Point one could go the whole 260 on a new bridge or perhaps 120-130 feet if the span was constructed UNDERNEATH. Either way, the bridge could be built for both rail and highway access.

As for Bartram Island and the channel, due to the Dame Point Turn, under and just West of the bridge, I doubt the center north shore of the island could be used. The shipping channel is VERY close to the island shoreline and any loss of control would send a vessel slamming into dockside. That same center area of the island might be suitable for other smaller installations. However, at both ends the channel moves away from the Island leaving at least as much distance as exists between Blount Island and the channel. Thus both the East 1/3 and the Western 1/3 of Bartram could be solid port.

If we can't build at Mayport, which forces tourists to make a LONG trip through Jacksonville, I'd be in favor of going after the smaller 20% of the cruise business that uses smaller ships and build the terminal DOWNTOWN. We already have a Cruise Line that calls on Downtown on a regular schedule with 4 ships, the American Spirit, Glory, Star, and Independence. See: http://www.epicjourneys.com/AmericanCL.html for details.  Perhaps we could still build a downtown terminal and attract several more specialty cruise lines to our city.

Here's some details as listed today:
Description: Bartram Island Dike Raising
Location: Bartram Island, FL
Owner: Jacksonville Port Authority
Engineer: CH2M Hill, Inc.
Price: $2,074,083.00

THOUGHTS?


OCKLAWAHA

[Charles Hunter]

Well, the western end of Bartram (ne Quarantine) Island is unsuitable for a cruise terminal for the same reason as the western side of Dames Point - west of the JEA lines and the DP Bridge.  The eastern end is an interesting possibility - once the Army Corps is through with it for the channel deepening project.  Don't think the entire island could become port, if that is where the Corps dumps spoil from maintenance dredging. Of course, you'd still have to get the Coast Guard to approve the Ock Draw Bridge, and I would bet the port interests would want an option that had no piers in the river.

I would like to see some more study of the eastern end of the island.  Interesting thoughts, Ock.

[thelakelander]

You lose a portion of the economic benefit a terminal would bring to the community by isolating it, which is what would happen by placing it on an island in the middle of river.  Review the cities showcased in this article.  Their cruise terminals are very well integrated with the communities they are located in.  They happen to be within walking distance of several other local attractions, museums, retail and dining areas.  Whether its Mayport, Downtown or whatever, Jacksonville should do the same to maximize the benefit of this investment in the community.

[Ocklawaha]

Correct Lake, but as my post pointed out, for the large ships, if we don't build at Mayport, Bartram Island might be the next best thing.  More then any passenger benefit, it certainly could be used to greatly expand our container port, using the entire island. Lastly, if the island had to be used for some of the passenger vessels, then perhaps a smaller specialty terminal, along the lines of the Jacksonville Landing - Shipyards projects could be located downtown.  Currently we have no welcome for the American Cruise Lines that use our downtown faithfully. Why Tony or other interests haven't jumped on this I don't understand.  Small cruise ships is a real area of the business that is booming - nobody seems to be watching. Think about the wealthy retiree, tourist or business traveler, who want the solitude and personal service of a small ship. Some of these are big hitters of business and industry and we have no red carpet awaiting their arrival. 

In short I'm suggesting without Mayport, we build on Bartram Island for FREIGHT and passengers, plus a smallish, but exquisite center downtown, that could perhaps double as a Jax Visitors Center.

OCKLAWAHA

[tufsu1]

Jaxport has no plan B and I will not let one of my tax dollars fund anything regarding a Cruise Terminal...................let them find a developer and good luck in doing so!

and good luck to you in having sole control on how/where your tax dollars are spent!

[CS Foltz]

Well tufsu you forget one important fact...............I am not the only person in my district that just happens to feel that way! I am but one true, but there is something to be said for numbers as in more than one or ten or one hundred. I do have representation on the Council and they atleast listen to what their constituants have to say about an issue. I have all ready contacted mine and he agrees to a point with my issues regarding funding for anything! I remind you $58 Million Dollars in the hole to start with so just where do you suggest public funding will come from?

[tufsu1]

JaxPort has its own Board...and will likely float bonds for the terminal...so there wouldn't be any direct tax impact...and it won't need City Council approval.

[Lunican]

Here is a nice photo that shows a "Jax" cruise ship vs a new mega ship...