Aircraft and birds....

[Ocklawaha]

Ocklawaha,

I guess what you are suggesting is that we replace the military aircraft with rail cars. I know the pentagon makes some strange decisions but I doubt fighter trains will take the place of fighter planes. So all jokes aside,
dose anyone else feel that the increase in bird populations at Huguenot Park, particularly gulls and terns and associated larger predatory birds, could pose a real threat in this case? .  
     

The first F-35 that lands in a picnic basket over in the park, will wake the community up to the danger. Until then expect "Faye" and a small army of animal lovers to suggest moving the Navy to Vella Lavella! They are vegetarians you know, the type that see turnips as the ultimate answer to national defense.

Realizing you are a newbie, you probably don't understand my "comic relief" of turning all things into streetcars and trains. I have been pushing rail on this city for 30 years, and am now seeing some real progress, but being a 100% disabled Vietnam Veteran and LONG time hippie, I'll find the humor in most anything.

When I first came out of the Navy, living in Long Beach, California, I was home with my family wondering if I'd ever do anything again. The next door neighbor had collie dogs, the ugliest of which was named "Cracker". Cracker being so damn ugly (yes, I know, I would never have thunk a collie as ugly, but this one was!) was lap raised by Marie and Howard, the dog would not go near it's food bowl unless Marie kissed it first! She was an executive at Westab, and Howard was dying of a heart condition. During the day I cared for Howard, fed him, got his TV going, and tried to make him comfortable - one vet to another. We rigged a signal bell from his room to the wall of our house, so if he felt faint, or anything ill, he could just ring and I'd be there. This went on for a couple of years while Howard sunk ever lower, until one day the "bell tolled" and Howard passed away, weakly holding on to my hands. I called 911 and Marie, as per our drills, Paramedic's, Hospice, Marie, 1/2 of Westab, were all suddenly swirling around me. Marie was crying, hell EVERYONE was crying, Howard was our friend after all. Marie gave me her keys and said, "Bob, please take care of things, I'm going with them to the hospital, and please feed the dogs." I hugged Marie, told her I would take care of all but one thing, she asked me, "What?" I said, "Marie, I love you, Howard and you are two of my best friends, but Marie, I'm NOT going to kiss that damn ugly dog!"

So yeah? Tossing box cars at the enemy might have some military value if not comic relief. Can you imagine how fast the Venezuelan soldier would be executed if he came running back into camp screaming that the Colombian's and Gringo's were shooting trains at them?

So you can see I'm just messing with all of you. Honestly, I have heard Coyote's do a quality job of keeping the New York airports bird free.  I just don't know how the neighborhood dogs, cats and chickens would take that idea?


Proof enough that even Coyote's prefer the train! Of course there are always Chupacabra's -

OCKLAWAHA

[Overstreet]

The yotes work good on house cats too.

[Dog Walker]

It seems that after several hundred years of killing off the dumb coyotes we have perfect demonstration of evolution in action.  They used to be diurnal pack animals and are now lone nocturnal animals that have vastly expanded their territory.

I saw that picture of the coyote on the subway a few weeks ago and fell out of my chair.

[kitester]

Dog walker,

You know my position well from all my previous posts on this forum from the thread "Huguenot Park your access today". But for any one who might be joining the show mid way I will state it again, no problem. Also to all who have not read the postings on that thread I encourage you to do so if you have an interest in what happens to Huguenot Park.

I am defiantly against any effort to turn Huguenot Park into a bird sanctuary. It is a stupid idea and there is no need for it. It disenfranchises the people of this city. Turning Huguenot Park into a bird sanctuary is exactly what the Audubon Society has intended to do from the outset in-spite of claims to the contrary. Actions speak louder than words. Oh but wait...... Is it really an Audubon thing or is there a hidden agenda? Why do the paid Audubon lobbyists regale the ARC in Tallahassee with stories about the dangerous public safety issues that clearly do not exist? It is clearly safer to walk down the beach at the park than it is to drive to the park. These issues or I should say non-issues, should not concern the wildlife and environmental groups.   
   Do you know that for a 24 hour period the ARC sub committee (chaired by and populated by many Audubon sympathizers) voted to close over 50% of the park permanently? There would have been no access, pedestrian included, to any of the area along the inside north shore. The other end of the line would have been drawn at the north end of zone ten. Approximately one third of the ocean side would have been turned into a bird only area all year round.
  They quickly backed off the pedestrian restriction but still pushed for the year round ban on beach driving in almost two thirds of the park. Only a last minute e-mail and phone campaign was able to reverse the decision in the full committee meeting the next day. There is clearly a second agenda behind the effort that has nothing to do with wildlife issues. They have fought to change the existing  seasonal, flexible restrictions into  permanent year round restrictions. They were responsible for the removal of the pet owning public even when certain areas and seasonal use could have been maintained. In a recent discussion concerning the next set of restrictions about to be put in place the issue of boats like small sailboats  and jet skies was brought up. There is really only one good place in the park that has deep access in calm water. That is the north point across from the bridge. When asked why that access should be closed the reply was "People are just going to have to give something up." What they mean is if they can remove this user group there will be less need to maintain automotive access to the point. The collateral damage from disenfranchising those groups are fishermen who would have to walk about a mile to the best fishing in the park. They have pushed for and gotten the wording of the management plan to include the words "recreational use".  I their view it is unsafe to swim, wade, fish, boat, surf, kitesurf or jet ski any where north of zone 11 on the Atlantic side or on the inside pond area. Whatever activity you (I mean you in general) participate in your on the hit list. They will say you will just have to give it up.

Now I can understand the Audubon addressing the issue of protection for baby birds that fledge on the beaches in the summer from dogs and cars. I can understand the Audubon pushing for greater restriction of access to the vegetative center of the dunes and their push to increase that area. I can understand the Audubon's  restrictive post and rope system that keeps people from driving on the mud flats near flocks of feeding birds. I can understand the effort to protect the Red Knots feeding on the shoals between Huguenot and Talbot Island during the migrations. All of those things have been address and the city has responded quickly to implement them.

So why is the Audubon still pushing to remove more people from a non environmentally sensitive area? Why does the Audubon want to make permanent the seasonal and flexible restrictions already employed? Why does the Audubon want a row of permanent posts installed across the point  from in the water on the inlet side across from the bridge all the way (eastward) to a point out in the surf on the beach side? The goal is not to protect birds. That has already been done. The goal is to shut down the park piece by piece, user group by user group until there is no reason for the city to maintain it.

Now I gotta say that I think that driving on the shoals at low tide is a silly thing. The salt water destroys cars. I know I have had two that suffered heavy rust damage. I never drove on the shoals and only had to drive through water at extremely high tides on rare occasions. Most of the time I just wait for the tide to drop which takes about 45 mins after it reaches the high mark. There is the possibility of cars being stranded and destroyed by the incoming tide as well. Potentially that could be an environmental hazard. Over the years we have seen cars completely covered by water. The claim is that the oil and gas that leaks into the water is harmful. No doubt! However I do have to say that now that I think about it I have never seen any fluid leaks or oil spilled from submerged cars out there. Perhaps there are check valves or seals that prevent that from happening. If so the environmental argument doesn't seem to hold much water (pun intended). Any mechanics out there with an answer? Do cars have safety devices to prevent gas and oil leaks?

So now that I have stated my position, given references to the other thread and been completely open and forthright (something the Audubon is not) I think it is time to re-ask the questions concerning aircraft and the large (and increasing) bird colony at Huguenot Park. Is there any danger? Is that danger increasing as the colony grows? Are there ways to mitigate the danger without resorting to destruction of the colony or individual birds?

The traditional nesting grounds are 4.5 miles north of the park, well outside the flight path of aircraft at MPNAS. The area has increased in size just like Huguenot, is actually larger now than it was several years ago and larger that the current nesting area at the park. We were told recently that it was a surprise to see terns nesting at Huguenot Park because the area does not fit the normal description of natural tern nest sites. The controlled burn was an attempt to adapt more area to tern nesting. Check out the pictures of both sites on google maps. The area near the north end of Talbot island behind Bird Island is  larger and more closely matches the description of traditional tern nesting sites. From Cornell Universitie's web site.

www.allaboutbirds.org/guide/Royal_Tern/lifehistory

"The Royal Tern makes its nest scrape on the ground on low-lying islands."

So why make an argument that Huguenot Park is the only place for these nesting birds. Look at the map on the Cornell site. Do you see where the traditional nesting occurs? Its not even in this state! These claims are being used to try to convince the public that restrictions at Huguenot Park are some sort of last ditch attempt to save these disappearing species of birds. It is just not true. If anything the numbers are up. It seems that the birds are more adaptable than thought in the past. After all they moved to Huguenot Park after Bird Island was washed over storms about ten years ago. Now that the area has reformed and grown why not do a controlled burn on Talbot Island? Why should the public sacrifice the last and only place in our area where true access is possible? the answer is simple. Its not about birds (Huguenot Park, Matanzas) or turtles (Jacksonville Beach, Ponte Vedra, etc) or dune mice Anastaisia. Its not about safety of the general public or about environmental issues. IT IS ABOUT BEACH DRIVING! 

But, if the attempts to encourage a "super colony" of nesting gulls and terns is a potential danger to aircraft in the area we should not discount the inquiry even if it comes from people who are willing to draw a line in the sand and say enough is enough!                               
             

[kitester]

Coyotes have been recently seen and heard in some North East Fl. areas.I am told that they are generally a shy animal. It is unlikely that any predation take place at the from them.

Ocklawaha,

I got your humor right off the bat. I just tried to play off it. You might like the fact that the Audubon suggested a tram system for access to HP. The only problem was that there is no place to run the tram from. 

[Ocklawaha]

It seems that after several hundred years of killing off the dumb coyotes we have perfect demonstration of evolution in action.  They used to be diurnal pack animals and are now lone nocturnal animals that have vastly expanded their territory.

I saw that picture of the coyote on the subway a few weeks ago and fell out of my chair.

Coyote's are the number 2 problem in my desert acreage out near 29 Palms California. The number one spot goes to the damn Cougars (the 4 legged kind). THEY EAT PEOPLE!

Actually Coyote and Bison are both native Florida animals. Back in the 70's there was talk about trying to reestablish buffalo on Paynes Prairie Preserve just south of Gainesville. Does anyone know if that happened? I always had my doubts as I found out while living in Oklahoma they are the MOST deadly animal in North America, apparently accounting for more deaths or maiming then some combination of any two other animals. I know that the OK Park system has warning signs everywhere telling one how to react if you encounter one. For you BBQ lovers, buffalo is worth every penny of the extra cost... pay for 3 pounds, cook 3 pounds and SERVE 3 pounds! It doesn't shrink or have any fat to burn off.

In the desert, coyotes are still seen in occasional packs, a time when they are most dangerous. When they move into an area, they pretty much clean out any domestic dogs or cats, as well as anything else from guppy's to goats. They usually run away, but I wouldn't want to bet my future on it. I do know people that have been stalked but never attacked, it's got to be unnerving to see one following you on a long walk to the neighbors. Airports that are isolated, such as Orlando, or airports on islands and peninsula's should be okay with them as their forays into their surroundings could be better controlled. I would think deer fencing, and wildlife undercrossings would be needed for approach roads. Wonder what an adult coyote could do to a 757's engines?


OCKLAWAHA

[Dog Walker]

I first saw coyotes in North Florida between Lake City and Live Oak back in the '70's.  They have obviously expanded their territory and adapted to living around humans.

I wonder how much of their spread is due to the lack of their predators like cougars and wolves?

I think coyotes are way too smart to get around a running jet engine.

Watched people in Yellowstone actually walk up to bison and try to pet them!  More bison around maybe the number of idiots would decline and hopefully the price of bison steaks would decline.  Yum!

[samiam]

If you drive west on I-10 to Mississippi half of the road kill appears to be coyotes

[Ocklawaha]

Trust the scientist boys and girls, the Florida Panther is extinct!

The rumors of the demise of the Florida "panther" is greatly exaggerated! Like the Tasmanian Tiger, the animal crazies are completely off the mark on this one, they claim "extinct", "20 individuals", "7 individuals", remaining... What they fail to calculate is there is a whole bunch of State north of the everglades, moreover there is more real estate north of that. Maybe it's because my Oklahoma and California farmette's are over run with the damn cougars (4 legged - oh darn!). The Okefenokee, Trail Ridge, even Julington Creek area's are full of them. A Florida wildlife officer and I walked onto the peninsular where Julington Creek splits, and within 10 feet, saw 3 Set's of tracks, each of a distinct size. While renting a place on the golf course in Lake Park, I likewise saw a scratch, and then my wife and daughter saw the big cat. She used the side yard as a passage from a heavily wooded lake region, to the country club where dozens of little foxes could be seen at night. I was amazed that in her use of the pathway, her scheduling keeping was better then CSX. EVERY night, same time, same place!

Funniest part of this story is that before we knew for certain we were dealing with a Florida Panther we had my Colombian sister-in-law staying with us. Every evening she would walk out, through the side yard, onto the edge of the golf course then she'd circle the block. She walked her little rat terrier which was a high strung dog. On evening the little dog took off toward a hedge and was barking like crazy. Sonia stopped short of the hedge when she saw a "really funny looking animal, I think... somebody's cat!" She told me, "She bother the dog, so I tell her go! go! but she not go! I get mad so I kick and tell her OOSH OOSH! but she not go, she stands up, really big ugly cat."  How funny is that? The girl that kicked at a panther and lived to tell it. Later when she got a full view of the cat bounding the road in a single leap, she nearly fainted. BTW, though it was in Georgia, the wildlife officers didn't even care enough to record it. Florida was interested, but I don't know if the "expert" ever got out to ask that cat how she thumbed a ride up from Miami? My guess is AMTRAK.



OCKLAWAHA

[Overstreet]

When I was in Atlanta in 2004 they had a problem with yotes killing house cats in Buckhead. I saw one east of Atlanta crossing the road.

In the Panhandle I worked a project there at Port St Joe and they were around there. I saw one at the old pappermill site and one along the road. You don't see them long. The yote only lets you see them briefly and usually on the road at night. At the house I'd hear them yipping to each other out in the woods. Spooky when you realize they are more than one around the house. Something was always digging up my fish carcasses. I always suspected the coyotes were doing it.

I think if a coyote got hit on the runway it would be because the plane surprised it on landing and hit it.  It happens to deer, but they freeze in the lights. Yotes look a little disgusted at you over their shoulder and they trot off, gone quickly.

Not all of the Floirda Panthers are panthers. Some of them might be cougars from out west. They had an experimental breeding program back in the 90s. They were trying to boost the breed with western DNA.

[Ocklawaha]

I think if a coyote got hit on the runway it would be because the plane surprised it on landing and hit it.  It happens to deer, but they freeze in the lights. Yotes look a little disgusted at you over their shoulder and they trot off, gone quickly.

Not all of the Floirda Panthers are panthers. Some of them might be cougars from out west. They had an experimental breeding program back in the 90s. They were trying to boost the breed with western DNA.

The coyotes manage to get across the path of automobiles out in California everyday. Some highways are littered with them certain times of the year. This still beats Oklahoma, where the roads are splattered with skunks about half of the year.

I used to get the newspaper called "CORYI", a publication of Florida wildlife that updated and tracked the doings of the Panthers 4 times a year. Don't know if they still publish it, but it was interesting, and I remember the cross breeding efforts with the western puma. The Florida cat tends to be a wee bit smaller then the western counterpart, but I'm not sure that would matter if one had his head in it's jaws.

The scientific name of the Florida Panther is, Puma Felis Concolor Coryi, which breaks down:

Puma - A South American Indian word for "mighty magic animal"
Felis - From the genus of the Felidae or true cats
Concolor - Of a uniform solid color
Coryi - From Doctor Coryi that identified the Florida subspecies

The Western or Northern cat is scientifically, Puma Felis Concolor Linnaeus

Per Above but "Linnaeus" - From, Karl Linné. 1707-1778 Swedish botanist and founder of the classification system for plants and animals.

As Lake Park is on the state line south of Valdosta, I doubt it is one of the western cousins that were brought in. My guess is there are several hundred that range from about Brunswick-Fernandina Beach-Baldwin-Palatka, westward to Thomasville-Tallahassee-St. Marks-Dunnellon, and throughout our large state and national forests and parks. In spite of the number of small towns, rural farms and farm to market highways, we have far less population then South Florida does. I think that translates into fewer sightings, fewer road kills, better habitat, and a food supply much easier to access.


OCKLAWAHA

[Dog Walker]

We were driving back from Tampa on  I-75 a number of years ago when somewhere just south of Ocala we passed a panther sitting on the side of the road calmly watching the traffic go by.  It was broad daylight and gave us one of those "Did we really see what we though we saw?" moments.  They are definitely not limited to the Everglades or Big Cypress.

[kitester]

One of the police officers that used to work the park said that he got a glimpse of what could have been a panther crossing the road near the park and that some big tracks were sometimes seen in the park near the gate.

All this is really cool but lets bring the topic back to focus on the question of possible danger to aircraft from bird strikes. Are there any pilots out there who might have some insight about the possibility of birds strikes resulting from the proximity of these bird colonies? How far away from the airfield do they need to be before the risk is minimal? I know that this is a seasonal problem and collisions between aircraft and birds can occur almost any where at any time.  Right now there are very few gulls or terns at the park (in the hundreds). But, what would the risk be like if the colony continues to increase as it has in past several years? Last year there were Thousands of adult Laughing Gulls, conservatively somewhere between 8 to 10 thousand adults, and thousands of terns, I think the estimate was about 3000 adults. If the numbers increase again this year as they have in the past three years there could be as many as 15,000 adult gulls and over 5000 terns. This does not include the numbers of vultures or larger predatory birds attracted to the colonies. They would fly at greater altitudes and cover the area more evenly. Would a dense flock of 20,000 or so birds the size of medium chickens at altitudes up to 1000 feet be a problem. If you draw a straight line from the end of the runway the line passes between the two densest flocks of birds in the park at the height of the nesting season. The line is very close to the main colony near the point and an aircraft on that line would pass within about 2000 feet of the center of both those flocks on either side. I think that there may be a tendency of (identified) military pilots to remain quiet on these issues because informal discussions could result in problems for commanding officers. But I bet that there are more than a few ex-military airmen and women that have had experience with this issue if not here then in other places.

On a side note I was watching a PBS special about the diminishing numbers of seals on certain Pacific islands. In one scene a small twin engine plane takes off from a dirt runway through a flock of birds. If you watch it you can see at least one bird is hit by the blades of the prop. I think the plane might have been a Piper Aztek. From what I read the speed for take off is around 100 mph and it climbs at around 120. If that bird had hit the windshield could it have caused enough damage to crash the plane? What are the normal take off and landing speeds of typical military aircraft in and out of Mayport NAS? Under normal circumstances what would the altitude of those planes be one mile out from the airport?