Aircraft and birds....

[kitester]

A new question has emerged concerning the massive and expanding bird colony in and around the park. I was recently asked by a civilian aircraft pilot if the colony could expand to impose a threat to aircraft arriving and departing Mayport NAS. As I am not a pilot and no pilots serve on the committee the question had not been brought up before. As I researched the FAA and other web sites I found that bird colonies located in and around airports are often a serious cause for concern. Bird strikes have increased in recent years and cause great damage to  aircraft and loss of life. In hind site the plane that came down in the Hudson River should have been a wake up call. As I read up on reported incidents it was clear that even smaller bird species can in fact bring down aircraft and that this type of conflict is becoming more common. There are now laws that restrict the use of lands around airports for uses that may encourage greater, denser bird colonies. In some cases the FAA actually applies mitigation by discouraging birds in certain areas. They use of sound generators, removal of attractants such as dumps, fresh water ponds or nesting areas and even physical removal of birds near airports to decrease the threat.  Here is a piece taken from the FAA web page that concerns bird colonies near airports.

Wildlife Hazard Management Plan
AC 150/5200-33B â€" Hazardous Wildlife Attractants on or Near Airports and the FAA Airports Wildlife Manual provides guidance on what should be in the Wildlife Hazard Management Plan

The plan should:

Provide measures to alleviate or eliminate wildlife hazards
Identify persons who have authority for implementing the plan
Priorities for needed habitat modification
Identification of resources for the plan
Procedures to be followed during air carrier operations
Wildlife control measures
Typical Wildlife Mitigation Techniques
Habitat Modification

Fill in ponds and water sources, if practicable
Control vegetation (cut grass high or low depending upon bird species)
Wildlife Harassment Tools

Air guns
Lasers
Dogs
Wildlife patrols
Trapping and removing
Shooting if necessary and with required permits

I think that trapping or shooting would be a last resort. In fact many of the bird species at the park tend to stay below the 300 foot altitude. But there is the increasing colony of Gull and Tern species. they can be seen daily at altitudes  well above that and are often right in the flight path of incoming or departing jets. Of course jet traffic has decreased since the days of the Saratoga and the Kennedy. This may be one reason the birds began to use Huguenot Park as a nesting site. The ship left in 2007 but air traffic had diminished before that for several years. That was about the time the bird colony began to develop at the park. I still remember seeing baby birds on the beach for the first time around 2003 or 2004. This combined with the natural loss of some nesting area in Nassau Sound 4.5 miles North may be the reason the birds developed the habit of nesting at the park. Most of the bird strike information I have found concerns fixed wing aircraft but apparently there is some concern involving helicopters as well. As things exist now with minimal air traffic in and out of NAS the nesting bird colony might not be too much of a threat. However there are plans to bring a new Carrier to the base and with it there will be an increase many types of aircraft over flying the park and surrounding areas.

But the possible conflict might not be necessary. There may be a way to rebuild the colony on Bird Island in Nassau Sound. Before the carrier can use the base there must be a massive dredging project. In fact the dredging may remove lots of sand and bedrock from the river channel. What if some of that could be used to enlarge the traditional nesting site? That seems like a win, win, win situation. If the colony had a better place to nest accessible only by boat and located in a designated wildlife area its protections would be greatly enhanced. The city could better focus its preservation measures on less invasive species. The safety of navel aviators would be increased by relocating the colony and the park would remain open to the general public year round with minimal, seasonal necessary closures which would require less effort to monitor and reduced maintenance for upkeep.          

[Lunican]

Bird strike video:

http://www.youtube.com/v/gc-XiO4ojzk&hl=en_US&fs=1&

http://www.youtube.com/v/uYNpB-8_BSo&hl=en_US&fs=1&

[Overstreet]

The helicopter minimum operating elevations for the military is often 300 ft in crowded areas. There is some danger to helicopters from bird strikes. Generally engines, blades and wind screens are the most common strike problems.  Get enough small birds in the intake and the helo will be landing shortly and often hard. Starlings have taken out airliners. Helo engine air intakes and compressor blades are small compaired to most airliners.

Blade damage can happen when the blades hit something.  Duh?...... It manifests itself in broken and missing pockets, dents in the spars and tip damage. Most of those can be extensive in the big boys like the HH-53 and still not crash the aircraft.  But some of the smaller ones like the HH-65 the coast guard uses might not be able to take the same hits.

Hits to the tail rotor or its linkages can be devastating to all helicopters except the HH-43 and the Russian Ka-27. (no tail rotor)

But more so hits that either come through the windshield or startle the pilot. Obviously through the windshield can be a bad thing. But the startling the pilot with nerves of steel is not normal. However, back in the old days for one reason or the other our CH-3C pilots used to dump collective, the blades drooped and cut off the pitot tubes over the cockpit. Losing one's airspeed indication is a bad thing. Once the ground in Thailand they took pitot tubes, and the roof of the cockpit.

Helicopters generally fly slower than the jets. However, I'm reminded about a session in the O-club where one of our pilots was arguing with a RF-4 pilot about the relative merrits of the two aircraft. The RF pilot lost the bet that the final approach speed was higher in the helicopter. You see the RF routinely made final approach around 100kts. The CH-3 made final approach over the runway threshold at 110kts.

[Dog Walker]

Kite, the birds have been nesting in the park since the 1960's to my personal knowledge, probably as long as there has been shelly sand there.  The biggest change has been the beginning of nesting of laughing gulls in the past twenty years or so.  They have actually pushed out some of the previous nesters and are larger and more numerous than a lot of the earlier ones too.  Blasted feathered rats, they are.

Jet engines are tested for "foreign object ingestion" but something the size of a Canada Goose as in the Hudson River case is just too much.

[kitester]

overstreet,

holy crap! I had no idea that helicopters were that susceptible to damage. I just assumed that the slower flight would minimize the damage.

Dog walker,

I think that most of the previous species that nested in the park were smaller birds like American Oyster catchers or black skimmers. Most of these birds fly below the 300 foot mark. The gull and tern populations are the big concern here. The populations of these birds have increased to a very high point with tens of thousands of individual birds in a single flock. You can see them all rise up at once in huge numbers at any time of the day. Laughing Gull populations may be having a hard impact on other bird species since they eat eggs and kill young birds even of their own species.

Lunican,

Those videos tell a very disturbing tale.  Even a small bird can bring down a large engined aircraft. There might be real reason for concern here as the bird colony increases
I also found a page that featured a story about a small jet that was nearly lost because of a bird strike. The bird was identified as a Scaup (sp) which is a small duck. I am beginning to realize that  bird strikes can cause major damage even if the bird's weight is small.       

[Dog Walker]

Kite, You are absolutely correct about the impact of the Laughing Gulls on the other birds and their tendency to form huge dense flocks.

Things are much worse when the flocks of birds are actually on the airports.  In addition to noise makes, etc. some bases and airports are using rescue Border Collies to drive them away.  Having a predator run them off seems to have more lasting effects than just noise.  One of the reasons  that having dogs running in the park is so harmful.

[kitester]

Dog walker,

For the last couple of years I also noticed that the area inside the jetty has built up too. It has always had some birds there but several bird watchers have noted that there are much bigger flocks there than in the past. I just looked at the alignment of the runway in relation to how the park sits (google maps). If you draw a straight line across the river the path of aircraft would be right between two dense concentrations of birds. I think that aircraft might be at about 300 to 400 feet as they cross the park. Of course birds won't follow any human designed flight path or stay below a particular height. Those things are controlled by the requirements of the species. I have also seen an increase in the number of Turkey Vultures probably because of the increased supply of sick or dead bird chicks in the park during nesting. Those things are big and I remembered years ago that a pilot told me that they can even take down slow flying planes. I was wondering if birds will show up on radar. It might be a silly point but if pilots could be forewarned they could divert before they got into a flock.

Also the use of dogs seems to be more humane than trapping or killing. If the birds were not allowed to nest at the park for a couple of years they might  get back into the habit of nesting away from the airport on Bird Island again. That might even be good for other species like A. Oystercatchers  that have been under pressure from the overcrowded, aggressive nesting gulls. I do not think that the use of dogs or incidental unleashed dogs after nesting has begun would be an appropriate answer. Any such program should only be used before the nesting has begun. It should be noted that even with the human presence in the park the there were often tracks of raccoons, opossums, bob cats and even reported sightings of foxes in the area where the gull colony has had explosive growth. After the use of fire to remove undergrowth on the widest piece of the park those animals or evidence of them was no longer there. I think reintroduction of natural predation could be a solution but of course there would be no way to protect the nesting desired species like oystercatchers.         

[Overstreet]

..........Jet engines are tested for "foreign object ingestion" but something the size of a Canada Goose as in the Hudson River case is just too much.......

Yes you are right.  My dad designed a air cannon for that use back in the 60's for Allison. They were testing engines with frozen chickens, snow balls, ice balls and other things. I on the other hand was just a trained jet engine accident investigator.

The problem is one of impact from the object. Yes, and big birds do more damage. They make big holes and bend big blades and stators. But not all engines are created the same. A external bypass fan on a big airliner is different than the smaller fan on a biz jet or the still smaller compressor blades on a small helio. The big bypass fans often take the damage and keep going. They sling the small stuff to the outside and out the bypass cowling. 

But little birds can damage airplanes too. A flock of starlings at any speed can choke the intake and cause a compressor stall in most any engine. It just takes more starlings for the big ones.   A compressor stall can cause damage or flame out the engine. A low altitude flame out may lead to an early  landing.  A compressor stall is the miss routing of air flow. Instead of the air passing over the stages of fan blades, to the gas producer blades, to the buner cans, to the turbine wheels, to the exhaust it often belches with a bang and flows out the intake. With luck it will blow the "clog" out and keep running. There are controls that limit these things. But with all that belching often comes damage to small parts that spin close together. If blades (rotating) and stators (fixed) start hitting each other the engine gets damaged and sometimes comes apart. If it lasts too long things start to melt. If the airflow in a burner can is disrupted too long flame touches the can liner and things go bad.

Don't worry though it doesn't happen all the time. You could also choke to death on a hot dog sold by the cart vender near your office. 

[samiam]

aircraft and man


http://www.videosift.com/video/Man-vs-Jet-Engine

[Dog Walker]

Kite, big birds and flocks of birds do show up on radar, but I doubt that they would show up in time on a takeoff or landing to do any good.

I thought I was being run down in the fog by an idiot boater once will going down the Intracoastal waterway.  Radar blob was coming right at me at high speed and I was beginning to feel something warm down my leg, when a brown pelican broke out of the fog and  flew just over the boat.  So I KNOW that a big wet bird will show up on radar!

[Ocklawaha]

Good morning ladies and gentlemen and welcome aboard Pan Am direct service to Portland, the weather at our destination, temprature in Portland is 67 degrees with gusty cross winds...

During our trip today we will be cruising at an altitude of 7 feet, and a speed of 79 miles per hour.  You will notice there was no safety appliance or procedure drill, and as always you are free to move about the cabins. Rather then salted nuts in a foil pouch and a plastic cup, we thought we would offer a choice of full course meals in our restaurant with changing views. Our feature of the day will be the baked salmon served on a cedar plank, or the New York steak served with our special wine sauce and cooked to order. You will also find the lounge is open and we are serving your favorite drinks, snacks and light meals. Music this evening is provided by Cracker Dare's Rodeo Combo. Our paramedic's station is always open should you have any special or medical needs, and the hair stylist will be with us from 2 PM until 5 PM today, in the solarium salon.

Bird hunters may check their shotguns as baggage at the ticket counter.

THANKS FOR FLYING AMTRAK...

"The glide-angle on a powerless 737 Heavy, is equal to the flight qualities of a cast iron Frisbee..."

OCKLAWAHA

[urbanlibertarian]

From msnbc.com:

Amtrak train kills 2 girls near Philadelphia
Teens struck by high-speed train traveling from Boston to Washington, D.C.

updated 4:19 p.m. CT, Thurs., Feb. 25, 2010

PHILADELPHIA - A high-speed Amtrak train struck and killed two teenage girls near Philadelphia.

Officials say the Acela train traveling from Boston to Washington, D.C., hit the two girls around 10:30 a.m. Thursday in Norwood, about 10 miles southwest of Philadelphia.

Interboro School District Superintendent Nancy Hacker says the 10th-graders had been in school earlier in the day, but left at some point. She doesn’t know what they were doing on the tracks, which aren’t far from the school. A third girl was with them and reported the accident.

[Ocklawaha]

Seagulls, Robbin's, Eagles, Owl's, Pelican's, Chevy's, Ford's, Harleys, Big Rig Trailers, and Teen Age Girls, or Colombian Peasants, don't generally cause the trains engines to flame out, with a corresponding sudden catastrophic loss of altitude!

OCKLAWAHA

[kitester]

Ocklawaha,

I guess what you are suggesting is that we replace the military aircraft with rail cars. I know the pentagon makes some strange decisions but I doubt fighter trains will take the place of fighter planes. So all jokes aside,
dose anyone else feel that the increase in bird populations at Huguenot Park, particularly gulls and terns and associated larger predatory birds, could pose a real threat in this case? Would it make more sense to try to redirect the colony to the traditional breeding areas in Nassau Sound before the navy steps up flight operations at Mayport? I hope that we can get some input form a few service pilots. They are the ones who will be dealing with an increased and possibly unnecessary threat.

By the way When I looked up both areas on google maps I found the images of the park and sound to be updated. These more recent photos show the large area of sand that has built up at the base of the jetty on the river side. BUT EVEN MORE INTERESTING was the area at the north end of Tlabot Island. Since the last time I looked the sand bar behind Bird Island has grown substantially. The potential nesting ground is almost three times the area of Huguenot Park. This area is almost two miles from the closest public access and the areas will never have automotive traffic. Boaters fish in the mouth of the small creek and a few people might walk the distance. That means there is a really great place for the colony to nest outside most human influence and intrusion. The best part is that it is so close, 4.5 miles north, to the park but still outside the flight path of military planes.         

[Dog Walker]

Kite,  Has the Navy issued a report about having problems with the birds from the Park?  How many jets or helicopters have crashed from Mayport NAS because of bird strike.

It is beginning to seem that your real concern and point of starting this thread is to find some reason or way to ease or eliminate the restrictions on access by cars to parts of the park.  "There is another place the birds can nest and they are a potential danger to the Navy aircraft so lets run them off and open the park completely to recreational uses."  Is this where you are going?

The birds are going to nest where they want to nest and we cannot practically or legally try to do anything about it.