Downtown Trolley Bus coming to Five Points

[Ocklawaha]

Doesn't anyone realize that JTA now has you same opponents of BRT, planning it's routes and stations, cheering them on because it's a "Trolley". Uuuuuhhh? Hello? Where are the tracks? Where are the wires? Why is it on rubber tires? Why does it pollute? All they have done, is slip their so-called "Trolleys" into the BRT lanes and "POOF" they got a BUS LOAD of new "Metro-Jacksonville", planners! I think I'm gonna PUKE! JTA? You haven't heard the last of me yet, I don't buy your shell game... It's agencys like yours that give Mass Transit a bad name! OCKLAWAHA- "BRT? Rubbish! Be gone before someone drops a real Trolley on Jacksonville. "BLAYLOCK-Very well--I'll bide my time--and as for you, Ocklawaha, It's true, I can't attend to you here and now as I'd like, but just try to stay out of my way...just try..." HA! HA! HA!



Ocklawaha

[thelakelander]

I don't think using existing transit to better connect downtown with it's nearby urban core neighborhoods in the short term is a bad idea.  Heck, they don't even have to be potato chip trucks parading around as trolleys.  Instead, the same thing can be accomplished with regular city buses labled "free".

The planning of any decent mass transit system takes years and the core doesn't benefit in the short term by not taking advantage of what already exists, but is currently under utilized.  Btw, I seriously doubt you'll see BRT lanes ever going into the heart of Five Points or down Riverside Avenue.  Riverside/Avondale residents would tar and feather JTA. 

[Lunican]

I don't think anyone is confusing them for real trolleys. I think everyone here is considering them the same as a bus. The new route would be an improvement over what they are running now, but it's definitely not the final solution.

[thelakelander]

JTA moving toward trolley service to Riverside-Avondale[/size]

by Max Marbut

Staff Writer

It’s something that’s been rumored for some time, but the JTA has begun the first steps involved in extending trolley service along Riverside Avenue to 5 Points beginning early next year.

Depending on the results of a survey JTA is conducting of the transportation needs and desires of those who work on Riverside Avenue, the service might be offered as far into the historic district as The Shoppes of Avondale.

According to JTA Director of External Affairs Mike Miller, the route to Riverside will be the first service enhancement and part of a long-range expansion plan that could eventually include trolley routes around Southbank and San Marco as well as Springfield. He said one reason the route has been chosen as the first addition is due to the mixed-use developments that have been approved to break ground along Riverside Avenue between the Acosta Bridge and Forest Street.

“Riverside will be the first leg of a three-phase expansion. It makes sense to begin there because of the public-private partnerships with the Miles Group and Hallmark Partners. Both projects include elements designed to accommodate mass transit options for workers and residents. It’s all part of the new urbanism,” he said.

full article: http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=47862


also in the article....

“It’s all about connectivity and synergy." - JTA Director of External Affairs Mike Miller

sound familiar?

[Ocklawaha]

It makes sense to begin there because of the public-private partnerships with the Miles Group and Hallmark Partners. Both projects include elements designed to accommodate mass transit options for workers and residents. F T-U

Imagine this scene filled with Gillig BRT Buses, or worse, fake Trolleys... Kind of makes you ill does't it?

I have no problem with shuttle bus service to any part of the City. The original idea for Public/Private partnership in bus service was something I presented to Ed Muller, Director of JTA, and George Harmon, Jacksonville Journal, back about 1983. (See archive: Jacksonville Journal/ FTU - "Arlington Man keeps coming up with good ideas for transit")

What to watch?

Don't let BRT close roads, create busways in town, under the smoke screen of "It's a Trolley" or "We gave you the Trolley because that IS what you asked for," or "It fit's in with Riverside, Springfield or San Marco."

This is a deception, designed to slip the infrastructure of BRT in, right under our noses.

Quit calling it a "Trolley", it's not even a "Trolley Bus" (which would be electric), It is at best a Shuttle Bus made to look like an Imitation Trolley.

Why?

Because then when the opportunity comes to obtain a REAL trolley, heritage or otherwise, they won't apply or get funding because "We already have Trolleys..."

This is a deceptive word game.

Finally, why does the Skyway have to be elevated in historic Riverside, San Marco or Springfield? Let me remind everyone, it runs on a rail and that rail could be 6" inches off the ground or 60' feet. At interchange terminals bring it down to ground level. Use free transfers. Make cross platform connections a reality. Overall the station appears to fit in well with the local theme, however, why not insist on laying LRT tracks in the drive at the outset? Call it nostalgia, or call it "show your sincerity!"

Your Friend
Ocklawaha

[thelakelander]

Regarding the skyway, if dropped to street level, would you be forced to close cross streets?  How can it be designed to accomodate at-grade crossings?

[Ocklawaha]

Lake, the project I have seen drops pretty fast, I'd say with the hilltop location (above McCoys Creek) over the old Passenger Rail yard, it would take no more effort to drop the line to grade then it did to raise it over the Acosta. I'm not saying keep it down, just bring it down at these major transfer terminals. If it is extended later, bring it right back up and over everything. The added cost of the grade (if any) should more then be made up by the ease of (and thus use of) the transfer facility.

Thanks

Ocklawaha

[thelakelander]

The good thing about that is, it's already dropped at the Brooklyn maintenance yard.  Btw, the new private financed peoplemover in Indianapolis drops in certain spots.



www.sibelle.info/peoplemover/clarpeop.htm

[Ocklawaha]

BEWARE THE FACE OF JTA!




Ocklawaha

[Jason]

Anyone see any trollys in Brooklyn yet?

[lindab]

Anyone see any trollys in Brooklyn yet?

Not seen yet.
It would be really nice to have the real trolley system connecting downtown to the nearby neighborhoods but really, my biggest concern is getting cars off the roads. When we went to the public meeting we were told that the "trolley/bus/shuttle" was only designed to bring people in and out of Five Points at lunch time only. The whole system is focused on easing the parking problems for the employees in the highrise buildings when they leave for lunch.  Pretty darn short-sighted.

[downtownparks]

I agree, Springfield, Brooklyn, San Marco, and Riverside need to  join together the reestablish Jacksonville's "street car suburbs"

[Webini]

I've seen the buses.  I live right at the edge of 5 points.  I definitely see this as a plus, a step in the right direction.  But, having lived in a city with rail transportation, I don't see this becoming a huge hit simply because it's a bus.  Shallow? But it's true. The only reason I don't use the thing is because "it's a bus". The experience isn't the same. and it's vunerable to the same issues that weekens bus ridership already.

[JeffreyS]

I agree, Springfield, Brooklyn, San Marco, and Riverside need to  join together the reestablish Jacksonville's "street car suburbs"

Any chance St. Nicholous and Ortega on that list.

[Ocklawaha]

FIRST let's define what we're talking about here.


This is a fake or FAUX Trolley, it's just a bus, but it's not even built on a bus frame and running gear. It IS built on the same frame as a UPS truck or Bob-Tail POTATO CHIP TRUCK... Attractive isn't it? Would it insult your intelligence to take your date out on an evening "Trolley Tour" on this thing? Just imagine the click clack, and buzz of the motors while you gag on the fumes.


This is a REAL Trolley, it is brand new and serves a mall like our own ST. Johns Town Center, out in California (where sorry, but their not afraid of creative ideas). This is battery powered with a new high tech re-charger built into the pavement at each end of the route. 5 minutes to full charge and it rolls the other direction. Interesting idea, but short on speed or stage length. These are on the market today and one new order is currently headed by the batch to a small Mexican resort town. It will be interesting to see how this holds up in daily transit service. These guys also build monorails and theme park vehicles. This is  NOT A PCT or POTATO CHIP TRUCK. It is a REAL TROLLEY...any questions?

While the infrastructure they planned on building for these Faux Trolley (or PCT's as JTA now calls them thanks to MJ) in the original drawings for 5-Points was good as it could be used by a vehicle on tracks at a later date. ANYONE that thinks this thing will gauge the success of a real trolley is deluded. In a few cases they are cute if sorry attempts at a poor copy, sort of like a 3Rd grader playing Abe Lincoln in a school play.
Besides that they're free. The down side is they have a very short life and fairly steep price. We'd be far better off $$ wise buying short REAL transit buses as downtown shuttles. Maybe even use some creativity?
ELECTRIC? TROLLEY (as in overhead electric) BUS? BATTERY BUS? etc... Meanwhile we can push for real Trolleys, which will shatter (I PROMISE) any consultants guess at ridership.

Ocklawaha