Re-Envisioning Shipyards/Convention center

[thelakelander]

Don't forget that Hyatt has some existing space on the second floor.  If desired, the existing Hyatt's meeting space could be incorporated into a new complex.  It all really depends on how much space you actually want.

[CS Foltz]

lake...........I would think that would depend on just how much space we need? There would have to be a limit as to what can be done with the footprint available isn't there? I mean if I had a choice between  the two seperate area's..........I would opt for the Ship Yards, just because of the possible views......river! Either location would have to be a blank sheet start up and Ship Yards has the edge since nothing has to be removed to get started right? The only plus that I see for the Courthouse location is proximity to Hyatt and downtown  reduction in the urban sprawl? I can see this one is going to be tough!

[Charles Hunter]

I think, earlier in this thread, Lake pointed out that the CH site could accommodate an exhibition hall several times larger than we would need here.  And whatever goes on the current Court House / Annex site is going to have to tear down the existing buildings.
I would hope the design would have large clear span areas without columns.

[thelakelander]

lake...........I would think that would depend on just how much space we need? There would have to be a limit as to what can be done with the footprint available isn't there?

From studies in the past, all they need is somewhere that includes between 200,000sf and 250,000sf of exhibition space.  That and much more can be accommodated on the courthouse site with no question.

I mean if I had a choice between  the two seperate area's..........I would opt for the Ship Yards, just because of the possible views......river!

You'll get this view with either.

Either location would have to be a blank sheet start up and Ship Yards has the edge since nothing has to be removed to get started right?

Having the Hyatt and Bay Street immediately adjacent and the Landing a short walk away is a significant advantage, imo.  The Shipyards is just as isolated as the Prime Osborn.  To build the supporting services needed for a new convention center would cost just as much or more than the center itself.  Plus if we do subsidize these new developments (and we will because the market can't support them) they'll compete against what taxpayers are already subsidizing.  Imo, that would be a bad use of taxpayer dollars.

In addition, the Shipyards site isn't all peaches and cream either.  Its a pretty narrow site.  A decent sized exhibition hall would have to span blocks and blocks (dead space at street level)......unless you went vertical.  Imo, we can do more with the Shipyards instead of converting it into a big rectangle that would still lack the support uses necessary for a successful convention center.

The only plus that I see for the Courthouse location is proximity to Hyatt and downtown  

That's a huge advantage and could easily be the major factor to success or fail.

I can see this one is going to be tough!

It looks like the Mayor believes the courthouse site is superior.  

[JeffreyS]

You have to put it next to a major hotel. I can't see as there is really any room to debate that. So if it is going to be Downtown that is the Hyatt or Omni.

[Jason]

I guess I'm just assuming Jason can design whatever we want, right Jason? I think I brainstormed in some posts last year that an urban park on top of the new convention center would be really neat.  I'm sure part of it will be enclosed mechanical, but we need to make sure the new convention center becomes a destination on it's own without just being used during actual conventions.  A park-like setting on top of the center with views of the river and bridges would be an instant hit.  And what a great place to watch the fireworks!

If you are reading this Adam H. let's open up our taxpayer-funded public buildings to include citizen input on design.  Residents will take more ownership in our public buildings if they feel their opinions are valued and considered.  Allow people to make suggestions on what should be included in the convention center or ideas for look and design.  Think how much better the new courthouse and future trans. center would be if it hadn't been a behind closed doors design.  You know I'm right!

We can make it looke like whatever we want!    My concept included an office tower and hotel tower along the riverfront with ground level dining and retail, another dining/entertainment component along Bay Street with residential lofts above.  Portions of the roof would make for a great urban park, similar to waht was proposed with the Shipyards (b-ball courts, tennis courts, playgrounds, etc.).

I love the idea of opening up the conceptual design to the public.  Hell, a design competition limited to local talent would be great too.

[Steve]

You have to put it next to a major hotel. I can't see as there is really any room to debate that. So if it is going to be Downtown that is the Hyatt or Omni.

Omni is less than 400 rooms - not really ideal for a convention hotel.

Hyatt is nearly 1,000.  The no brainer IMO

[mtraininjax]

Hyatt is the clear winner. Take down the courthouse, expand, then in time take down the City Hall Annex and expand there as well. Shoot, they could even take down the crappy parking deck and build on top of it as needed for more space.

The Hyatt is the clear winner.

[Ocklawaha]

You have to put it next to a major hotel. I can't see as there is really any room to debate that. So if it is going to be Downtown that is the Hyatt or Omni.

Great idea team!

Why don't we hand the project to the JTA consultants that came up with the "Jacksonville Transportation Center" plan, and have THEM design the new Convention Center with hotel access.  It's probably the only way we could ever put it next door to the Hyatt downtown, Omni downtown, Best Western on JTB/I-95, and the Airport Clarion, all at the same time!

OCKLAWAHA

[stjr]

Don't forget that Hyatt has some existing space on the second floor.  If desired, the existing Hyatt's meeting space could be incorporated into a new complex.  It all really depends on how much space you actually want.

Lake, any luck finding the thread where we discussed various square footages and floor plates for a "L" shaped convention center at the courthouse site?  No need to rehash all that if we can just link to it.

MJ has so many threads now its getting hard, even with search, to find them all.  It would be nice if one could do a limited or advanced search just on thread titles, by forum category, and/or by just threads one has posted to.

[CS Foltz]

Gentlemen............hope you can find that thread! You guys are usually ahead of the power curve and would save some time discussing something that has allready been hashed out!

[Ocklawaha]

It won't hurt that the new Convention Center at the Court House Site will be next door/or connected via paseo to: the Riverwalk, The Marineland Aquarium at Jacksonville,  The Jacksonville Maritime Museum,  Jacksonville Traction Company Museum/Car Barn, The Skyway,  A. P. Randolph Pullman Museum,  The Negro League National Heritage Museum,  The Florida Theater,  The Baseball Grounds,  The Southern Fried Rock Hall of Fame,  The club district,  The Jacksonville Landing,  TU Performing Arts Center,  Laura Street,  Hemming Plaza/Library (largest in the state),  Friendship Fountain and park,  MOSH,  Museum of Modern Art,  Ray's (Ray Charles) Blues Club,  Ritz Theater,  Water Taxi,  Veterans Memorial Arena,  Veterans Memorial,  The Jacksonville Fire Museum and Monument,  Metropolitan Park, Kids Kampus, The Shweeb and The Shipyards Quay.  Everything within an easy walk or river taxi trip in the near future. All of it connected by bus, networked by streetcar, and sped over the streets by Skyway...

All of which would just beat the hell out of hosting a convention in the middle of a former bomb test range.


OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

Don't forget that Hyatt has some existing space on the second floor.  If desired, the existing Hyatt's meeting space could be incorporated into a new complex.  It all really depends on how much space you actually want.

Lake, any luck finding the thread where we discussed various square footages and floor plates for a "L" shaped convention center at the courthouse site?  No need to rehash all that if we can just link to it.

MJ has so many threads now its getting hard, even with search, to find them all.  It would be nice if one could do a limited or advanced search just on thread titles, by forum category, and/or by just threads one has posted to.

No luck yet.

[thelakelander]

Stjr, I found it.  I had to go back to when you first signed up and search your posts individually.  I had to comb through 20 pages before it came up.

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,4764.0.html



The existing courthouse parcel and parking lot is roughly 285,600 square feet.  This does not include the Courthouse Annex parcel (an additional 102,400) or the Hyatt (27,100sf grand ballroom).

http://www.jacksonville.hyatt.com/hyatt/images/hotels/jaxrj/floorplan.pdf

We only need around 200,000sq feet of continuous exhibition space.  The courthouse site can easily accomodate that on a single level and much more once the courthouse annex block is included.  If we think vertical (two or three floors), we should be able to accomodate parking, smaller meeting rooms and support retail & entertainment uses.  On top of that, we could also sell air rights for private development to be built on top of the convention center.

Washington State Trade & Convention Center


This aerial shows the convention center with two highrises (a hotel and office tower) that have been constructed on top.



The exhibition hall is not at street level.  Instead, the main entrance, along with retail and entertainment uses face the street.  Such a move at the courthouse site could really bolster the vibrancy of both Bay Street and the riverwalk.

[stjr]

Lake, great job.  Thanks for taking the time to find it.  This is a big help in revisiting this subject.

I think Jax first needs to determine the size exhibition hall it wants and everything will flow from there.  Remember, a 200,000 sf hall will need tens of thousands of support square footage on the same floor for an entry and gathering foyer, breakout rooms on the same floor, foodservice operations, bathrooms, storage and staging, loading docks and bays, stairs, elevators, security, communications, audiovisual, utility and maintenance rooms, ticket office/event office space, etc.  If it's not ground level, a ramp for large rolling stock (oversized vehicles, boats, RV's, trucks, tractors/commercial vehicles, maybe even small planes? ) would have to also be considered.

I agree that the courthouse site is inherently a good possibility given its proximity to downtown, the waterfront, and the Hyatt. However, in revisiting our past thread, I stand by my concerns that the size and shape of the courthouse/annex property may be too confining for our LONG TERM needs.  Jax needs to figure out how long a new center's life should be.  The longer the life expectancy, the more flexibility the site should have for future needs, changing technology, and expansions.  Over 30 years, Jax could easily grow 50 to 100% in population and this may dictate a bigger hall than currently envisioned.

Given the expense of this project, we should master plan for expansions and updates so we don't find ourselves in this same hole less than 20 years from now.  Keep in mind how many times stadiums such as ours are constantly finding themselves in need of upgrades as others pass them by.  I think this may be even truer for a convention center that must serve even more masters/users/needs.

P.S. Parking and intermodal (street car, tour and city bus stops, taxis, etc.) transit connections also need to be resolved.  I would think anything less than 1,000 to 2,000 parking spaces would be an issue.