Re-Envisioning Shipyards/Convention center

[mtraininjax]

Given the expense of this project, we should master plan for expansions and updates so we don't find ourselves in this same hole less than 20 years from now.  Keep in mind how many times stadiums such as ours are constantly finding themselves in need of upgrades as others pass them by.  I think this may be even truer for a convention center that must serve even more masters/users/needs.

Pretty simple, really. The City Hall Annex will be gone from service before 20 years are up. The uprgades and maintenance can be paid for by a tax on all who use the site and/or part of the bed tax for the county. More conventions benefit everyone and the velocity of money has an incredible multiplier. Since the city owns the land to the Annex, I'd look to, once courthouse is over, give the Hyatt a 99 year lease on the property or some sort of win-win proposal with the Hyatt, who will surely need the space at some time.

This could be an excellent jewel of downtown.

[vicupstate]

The convention center could expand to the JSO site in 20-30 years, if necessary. 

[stjr]

Since the city owns the land to the Annex, I'd look to, once courthouse is over, give the Hyatt a 99 year lease on the property or some sort of win-win proposal with the Hyatt, who will surely need the space at some time.

Not sure of the accuracy, but I have heard that the Hyatt has an option on the Annex parcel.  Maybe someone could verify this.  If true, I wonder how this would impact things if the Hyatt refused to give it up.

[thelakelander]

I've heard that as well.  If it is true, the Hyatt would probably use this to their advantage to get the convention center on the courthouse site.  A new center on any other site would be to their detriment.

[CS Foltz]

If the Hyatt has an option on the Annex property...........they are going to be sitting pretty if the old Court House is brought on line as the new Convention Center location! Now that is some vision, or else they knew about this situation a long time ago? I wonder if the GOB network gave them a heads up or if they saw far enough ahead to take advantage of the situation!

[vicupstate]

The Hyatt does have some sort of option or right of first refusal on the City Hall annex, of course it was the Adam's Mark originally.   No doubt that transferred with the hotel sale.

When Mike Weinstein ran for mayor, his plan was to put the convention center at the courthouse site. Had he won, it would probably be there now.

[thelakelander]

Here is an article from 1998 about the Adams Mark (now Hyatt) deal:

Time needed to examine hidden costs to taxpayers for hotel deal

The Florida Times-Union - Friday, June 5, 1998
Author: Ronald L. Littlepage, Times-Union columnist

As the Adam 's Mark Hotel project is on a fast track -- these tax-giveaway deals almost always are -- we had better hurry to ask more questions while we can.

Of course, the most important question is: What is this deal going to cost taxpayers?

A lot.

The biggest bites out of the taxpayers' pockets -- or at least the most obvious -- are pretty well known.

In making its proposal to build a 950-room hotel on the downtown riverfront, the developers of the Adam 's Mark Hotel came with their hands out and they didn't leave empty-handed.

The Jacksonville Economic Development Commission agreed to give them $13 million up front. They also get the prime riverfront site -- the City Hall Annex parking lot and the Daniel Office Building, both taxpayer-owned and valued at $8 million -- for free.

But the cost to the taxpayers will go beyond that $21 million; just how far beyond isn't known.

Under the agreement with Adam 's Mark now being hurried through the City Council, taxpayers also will pay up to $750,000 to prepare the property for construction.

Taxpayers also will be obligated to repave and fix-up the streets leading to the hotel. Given the Downtown Development Authority's tendency to put in fancy street lights and sidewalks in conjunction with such projects, that's likely to cost a pretty penny as well.

Taxpayers also will have to pay to extend utilities to the hotel site.

Then there's the issue of parking.

The Jacksonville Landing now has use of about 300 parking spaces in the Daniel Office Building garage. Those spaces won't be available after the hotel is built.

And think about it. The property behind the City Hall Annex is called a parking lot for a reason. People park there, not just city workers but people using the city services offered at the annex.

Taxpayers get ready. Replacing all of that lost parking won't be an inexpensive deal .

This next little item could be costly as well.

The agreement with Adam 's Mark requires that the hotel be one of the stops for a downtown shuttle system.

Don't confuse this shuttle system with the Automated Skyway Express, for which taxpayers have already spent close to a quarter billion dollars.

No, this is a new bus system that will shuttle people from places like the parking lots at Alltel Stadium to key points downtown.

Suffice it to say that it won't pay for itself.

Finally, let's not forget the restrooms. Yes, the restrooms. The public restroom pavilion at the corner of the annex parking lot and Coast Line Drive, built just a few years ago at a cost of many thousands of taxpayer dollars, will be torn down to make room for the hotel.

The argument for the restroom in the first place, and it was the focus of much City Council debate, was that the Northbank Riverwalk had to have public restrooms. Presumably, taxpayers will have to build another. Hotels usually don't like ordinary folks wandering in to use theirs.

As you can see, there's more to this deal than just the direct $21 million subsidy.

There's another aspect of the agreement that's not widely known. The developers of Adam 's Mark get the first right of refusal on the City Hall Annex should the city decide to sell it.

That, too, is a nifty little deal for Adam 's Mark and just another reason the City Council should ignore the JEDC's suggested June 23 deadline for approving this project and, instead, take its time to do it right.

http://infoweb.newsbank.com/iw-search/we/InfoWeb?p_product=NewsBank&p_theme=aggregated5&p_action=doc&p_docid=0EB4257832E02BED&p_docnum=72&p_queryname=16

[Charles Hunter]

The key words seem to "should the City decide to sell it" - if the City keeps the Annex land for a new Convention Center, that never comes into play.

[Charles Hunter]

The convention center could expand to the JSO site in 20-30 years, if necessary. 

Perhaps, but it isn't directly across Bay Street - some of the Bay Street nighlife places are.  The Blackstone building - mostly lawer's offices - is across from the Annex block - it might be available if all the lawyers move close to the new courthouse.

[thelakelander]

If the JSO and jail site were used, you would just have a north and south exhibition hall.  That would be similar to Orlando's convention center on I-Drive.  However, lets be realistic.  There is no funding for a new center and construction can't begin until the new courthouse is completed in 2012.  We're probably 5-10 years away from seeing a riverfront convention center.  Even at that point, the courthouse site is still large enough to handle twice the amount of desired expansion square footage.  It will be decades down the road before we need +400,000 square feet of continuous exhibition space.

[Seraphs]

In a way I can see why some folks favor the shipyard site.  However, realistically the courthouse site is ideal.  The Hyatt is just sitting there already in place and is a great hotel.  Doesn't make much sense to build way away someplace then struggle to open an adequate hotel near it. Duh!!!

[Charles Hunter]

If the JSO and jail site were used, you would just have a north and south exhibition hall.  That would be similar to Orlando's convention center on I-Drive.  However, lets be realistic.  There is no funding for a new center and construction can't begin until the new courthouse is completed in 2012.  We're probably 5-10 years away from seeing a riverfront convention center.  Even at that point, the courthouse site is still large enough to handle twice the amount of desired expansion square footage.  It will be decades down the road before we need +400,000 square feet of continuous exhibition space.

Which makes delaying the Transportation Center to wait for the Convention Center to move a bit problematic. If the money comes through for the TC, it will be hard to get the agencies to wait.

[thelakelander]

As for the transportation center, my suggestion would be to switch the phasing around.  Phase 1 is fine where it is, so that should not be a problem.  Greyhound and the proposed bus terminal locations are the problem.  Instead of phasing them in first, work on getting the rail terminal and streetcar sections funded first.  This will give the city time to get the convention center out of LaVilla.

[CS Foltz]

Well I am sure glad that my tax dollars enabled the "Hyatt" to basically get paid to take the Annex, Daniel Bldg off of our hands..........makes me wonder just who was leading the City side of things? I believe that was Mr Delaney was it not? I understand so-called incentives are necessary to bring what is needed to downtown but at what cost? This particular deal involved what.... $21 Million Dollars of our tax money? Property and a Bldg for $8 Dollars the taxpayers owned just given away! JEDC passing over to them $13 Million Dollars, plus we got to cough $750,000 for preconstruction work, pay to extend all utilities to where they were built at, repair and extend the streets and we tore down the Public Restroom Facilities that we allmost brand new? Gentlemen, I am going to be perfectly blunt...........This outright stealing from the taxpayers has got to stop! If the proposed Convention Center involves giving more incentives and passing out more of our tax money as freebies, I for one will be against it! A point of matter regarding the Hyatt............did you know that the roof has 4 Cell Phone carriers on it............all who pay Hyatt to be there? Also while I am thinking about it......11E (Old American Heritage Bldg.........has 4 also that pay Vescor to be there! There has to be a limit guys and what took place here went above and beyond! At what point do the payers say ..........No More?

[thelakelander]

Now you know why I believe it doesn't make much sense to move the convention center anywhere else in DT that will require us to incentive another hotel to complete head-to-head against one we have already subsidized.