Misleading Petitions

[chris farley]

Talk about hostility, this Christmas has been my worst ever, as well as getting flu, I got insulted, shunned,  my flowers got called names through the forum, but worst of all I didn't get to see Santa, but mind you I hear his sleigh was freshly washed,  and what do you think SPAR did it!

[chris farley]

Stephen you exaggerate, I only know of one person who mentioned it once, and my post was poking fun at myself as much as anyone and I loved the clean sleigh bit.


Nice to hear from you Porch Cats, glad you got to chuckle

[Springfielder]

I received this, per request, and here's the petition that FSU813 sent. It's blank except for what's typed at the top, and is a 'blanket' type of petition:

Petition

The “Special Use” housing in Springfield has become a very real factor impacting residents in the following manner:
   Quality of Life
   Decrease in property value for all Springfield property.
I am in favor of the total enforcement of current zoning codes and laws that restrict illegal uses of property encompassed in the “2000 Springfield Zoning Overlay.”

edit: typo corrected

[ChriswUfGator]

Those of us who supported Silas got a number of phone calls.... telling us how wrong we were.  It was probably a good thing to leave it blind.

SPAR. Busted. AGAIN.

2X in the same thread now.

So I guess it's just not enough for SPAR to submit its own counter-petition to Silas Jones' petition, as is their right. No, they (as always) had to take it a step further, and start calling Mr. Jones' supporters in an attempt to pressure them into withdrawing their support.

And FWIW, I believe this was actually the exact logic behind not making the names on the pro-carwash petition public. It's sad to see that fear was well-founded, and indeed came true. I guess "Hope for the best, but always expect and plan for the worst..." is now officially the only way to deal with SPAR.

This is really some dirty pool...

[CS Foltz]

Springfield Girl...............you are correct, I got nothing better to do than irritate & agitate since it is so quiet at Link Side (by the way that is two words not one!) Mr Lamb had removed a garage without permission from RAP & had gutted a period Historic Bungalow preparatory to razing the house why? Because the cost of bulldozing was around $5K and that was cheaper than putting a new roof on the house!  He did not want to spend anymore money on the house. I agree with RAP's decision in this matter to put that on hold............more than likely the house will have to be demolished since it is steadily going down the hill, but RAP is doing their job according to their mandate & bylaws unlike SPAR! They have open elections, their board does not have an agenda that is hidden, their dealings with their world is open and transparent............now can you say the same for SPAR? Somehow I don't think so! Mr Lambs attorney is Paul Harden...........do I need to say more?

[ChriswUfGator]

It must be really boring in Linkside. I just read the 5 page thread regarding an appeal to LUZ to tear down a bungalow in Riverside and CSFoltz has weighed in on the neighborhood and RAP on that thread.
I found it very interesting as they are carrying on the same arguments for and against RAP that we see here regarding SPAR. I would suggest anyone following the SPAR as savior/devil crap read some of it. It is the classic org saves neighborhood/org oversteps their boundaries and gets in peoples business debate. Goes to show you can't please everyone.

That's an oversimplification.

RAP is getting flak for getting up in Bronson Lamb's business when he tried to knock down a period bungalow. In other words, they are performing their stated mission of protecting historic structures, and doing it well since they put a halt to the demo. Some people (Lamb and his buds) naturally don't like it, and hence, the debate. That's an honest debate, unlike this one. If you don't think RAP should meddle with private property, then don't become a RAP member. If you appreciate their preservation efforts, then by all means, support the membership. But the important thing is that you can make a choice on face value, because the parties involved have integrity.

But here, we have the opposite going on. The problem here is that what you see isn't what you get. SPAR has been busted red-handed, running around behind the scenes interfering with new businesses trying to come into the neighborhood, and complaining to COJ that it actually takes too long to demolish the historic housing stock that they are supposed to be protecting. And to add insult to injury, a nice chunk of what was slated for demolition probably got there in the first place because of SPAR's pre-orchestrated mass code-enforcement call-in campaigns. Meanwhile, SPAR is receiving huge checks from the very same Developer who has been snapping up a steady stream of these now-vacant lots. It absolutely reeks.

Tell me you honestly don't see the difference? RAP is just doing what's it's supposed to do, doing it honestly, and you can take them at face value even if you don't like their position. SPAR is doing the opposite, and dishonestly holding itself out to the public as a historic preservation group, while working behind closed doors to speed up the demolition of the historic houses they claim to be protecting. They use dirty tactics to oppose new businesses trying to enter the neighborhood, or at least those that don't properly suck up to the Executive Director. And not to mention this thread marks the second allegation of petition fraud against SPAR in as many months. Then there are the bogus assault allegations and trespass warnings, made in an attempt to ban people from public meetings who disagreed with the Executive Director's position.

This just isn't even remotely comparable to the RAP vs. Bronson Lamb situation, because at its core the problems with SPAR revolve around; 1: Dishonesty, 2: SPAR's abrogation of its preservation mandate and its backroom attempts to speed up the destruction of what they're supposed to be protecting, 3: SPAR's continual engagement in questionable and shady tactics to accomplish the goals of, not the neighborhood, but of a small group of 10 or 12 people, and 4: Current SPAR leadership's conversion of a nonprofit community org into a dictatorship, by refusing to follow its by-laws, refusing to stand for election as required, and fighting its own membership.

As a supporter of RAP's position with Mr. Lamb, I'm actually insulted by the comparison.

[strider]

I received this, per request, and here's the petition that FSU813 sent. It's blank except for what's typed at the top, and is a 'blank' type of petition:

Petition

The “Special Use” housing in Springfield has become a very real factor impacting residents in the following manner:
   Quality of Life
   Decrease in property value for all Springfield property.
I am in favor of the total enforcement of current zoning codes and laws that restrict illegal uses of property encompassed in the “2000 Springfield Zoning Overlay.”

Just so I understand, this is the petition circulated to fight against the car wash?  Or is it just another petition circulated by SPAR Council that FSU813 felt like sending in place of the one circulated for the car wash?  As a petition against "special Uses", it is fraudulent.  As a petition against the car wash, it would be considered criminal.

[CS Foltz]

strider.......what I find disturbing is the phrase " I am in favor of TOTAL eforcement of the current zoning Codes" which does not leave any room for discussion or exceptions! Paul Harden is not involved with SPAR is he?

[fsu813]

"Just so I understand, this is the petition circulated to fight against the car wash?  Or is it just another petition circulated by SPAR Council that FSU813 felt like sending in place of the one circulated for the car wash?  As a petition against "special Uses", it is fraudulent.  As a petition against the car wash, it would be considered criminal."

- as stated before, it's the "misleading" petition from the neighborhood meeting held some months ago.

As you can see:

1) it's clearly marked at the top as "petition", not a sign-in sheet

2) it uses casual language & format so it wasn't meant for any kind of official submission

3) it talks about "enforcing current zoning codes" and the 2000 overlay, so unless you don't support the current zoning or 2000 overlay there's really nothing to disagree with

4) it doesn't mention anything about changing the zoning or overlay to go after Strider & Sheclown's unofficial rehab houses, which is what some people thought the intention was.


Hopefully this puts to rest that is was "misleading" at all. Though i'm sure a creative mind could conjure something up.

[nvrenuf]

Those of us who supported Silas got a number of phone calls.... telling us how wrong we were.  It was probably a good thing to leave it blind.

SPAR. Busted. AGAIN.

2X in the same thread now.

So I guess it's just not enough for SPAR to submit its own counter-petition to Silas Jones' petition, as is their right. No, they (as always) had to take it a step further, and start calling Mr. Jones' supporters in an attempt to pressure them into withdrawing their support.

And FWIW, I believe this was actually the exact logic behind not making the names on the pro-carwash petition public. It's sad to see that fear was well-founded, and indeed came true. I guess "Hope for the best, but always expect and plan for the worst..." is now officially the only way to deal with SPAR.

This is really some dirty pool...

Dan did not mention WHO called. Maybe it was SPAR, maybe not. As someone who supported the car wash, I received zero communications telling me how wrong I was so that statement in itself is inaccurate.

[ChriswUfGator]

1) it's clearly marked at the top as "petition", not a sign-in sheet

Problem is, people who were at that meeting have confirmed that this petition was placed so the metal hasp of the clipboard covered up the language that identified it as a petition. Then SPAR asked all attendees to "please make sure to sign in." Nobody in attendance recalled there being any other separate "sign in" sheet, there was only this one.

So we're back to square-1 here. The piece of paper sure could have said "Petition" on it, and I don't think anybody has argued that one way or the other. That's not the point. The problem was that the part of the paper identifying it as a petition was concealed by the metal hasp on the clipboard, and then SPAR asked everyone to "sign in," while passing around this piece of paper with the petition language covered up.

[ChriswUfGator]

Those of us who supported Silas got a number of phone calls.... telling us how wrong we were.  It was probably a good thing to leave it blind.

SPAR. Busted. AGAIN.

2X in the same thread now.

So I guess it's just not enough for SPAR to submit its own counter-petition to Silas Jones' petition, as is their right. No, they (as always) had to take it a step further, and start calling Mr. Jones' supporters in an attempt to pressure them into withdrawing their support.

And FWIW, I believe this was actually the exact logic behind not making the names on the pro-carwash petition public. It's sad to see that fear was well-founded, and indeed came true. I guess "Hope for the best, but always expect and plan for the worst..." is now officially the only way to deal with SPAR.

This is really some dirty pool...

I received zero communications telling me how wrong I was so that statement in itself is inaccurate.

Maybe they didn't get around to you, nvrenuf, but it appears they certainly made an effort to pressure others, as has been reported here directly from the horse's mouth.

I see no reason Dan B would lie, he is a SPAR member and knows a lot of people in that group. He has argued with me tooth and nail on here before, over SPAR issues. I think he's the last person who'd just make something up if it didn't really happen, especially on these issues.

So no, I don't think that statement is inaccurate at all.

[chris farley]

Here goes

To paraphrase the great Bard,  Methinks they do protest too much"  What is this? You said you won, the "losers" have gracefully accepted it.  Are you telling me there was no campaign or postings by the pro side? It was humongous and somewhat spiteful.  Let it go, or do you think you didn't win enough or the losers have not shown enough pain?  The names mentioned within the Jones letter were not SPAR members, but no one will admit that and they were not coerced. 
On the issue of houses how many have been shut down?

FSU and Springfield Girl I should not be posting, I think is is better not to and let the chatter be amongst themselves.

[samiam]

OK I saw the petition, I read what it was for and it was explained to me what it was for. There was nothing hidden or underhanded about it. BTW I am not a SPAR member nor am I a member of any other group. Im just a homeowner that wants Springfield to improve. Nuf said.

[nvrenuf]

I see no reason Dan B would lie, he is a SPAR member and knows a lot of people in that group. He has argued with me tooth and nail on here before, over SPAR issues. I think he's the last person who'd just make something up if it didn't really happen, especially on these issues.

So no, I don't think that statement is inaccurate at all.

I didn't say that Dan lied. He is a personal friend and I would never presume such a thing. What I am saying is that assumptions are being made that it was the SPAR office who called. When did he say that it was SPAR? If it was SPAR so be it, but can we at least make sure that is what he said before submitting it as a fact?

Facts, just use facts. That's all I'm asking.

And Dan, are you still a SPAR member? Didn't realize you had renewed.