Duval County Courthouse: How much is too much?

[DemocraticNole]

Another MetroJax article and it's another time that the city of Charlotte, NC is doing things better and more efficiently. Someone go up there and kidnap some public officials and bring them back to Jax. Then send Peyton up there to work his big box/sprawl magic.

[Lunican]

That might be a good idea for a trading places reality show: Meet your New Mayor.

[jhgator1]

I would tend to agree that it is not completely fair to compare costs of buildings completed much earlier than this one.  Construction costs are absolutely crazy right now.  When the original designs for the courthouse came out, a yard of concrete was somewhere in the $60-65 range.  Now, it is in the $95-105 range, depending on strength, etc.  Steel costs are absolutely ridiculous.

As for the design, I haven't seen the plans for this thing, but I know you say it takes up a lot of space.  Originally (back when the competition was originally done) that KBJ solution was a taller building that only took up 2 blocks immediately behind the old Federal Courthouse.  Hogan street (I believe it was) was NOT to be crossed (by direction of the competition rules).  Parking garages were behind the building, the old federal courthouse was to be incorporated into the design, and there was retail space in a portion of the parking garages.  The only thing that I can think of that would change to what you say is covering 4 blocks now is someone was directing the designers to do this.

I think it would be much better to do something along the original design lines compared to this thing that is spread out.  That would leave at least 2 blocks of the 4 (colored in orange above) for private development.

[thelakelander]

I would tend to agree that it is not completely fair to compare costs of buildings completed much earlier than this one.  Construction costs are absolutely crazy right now.  When the original designs for the courthouse came out, a yard of concrete was somewhere in the $60-65 range.  Now, it is in the $95-105 range, depending on strength, etc.  Steel costs are absolutely ridiculous.

A few of these places were completed less than a year ago and one this past month.  The cost of construction material has risen since 2000, but the jump from a year or two ago is not that significant.  We can build a courthouse for under $400 million still, we just need to learn how to live within a budget.

[Superman]

I believe I have the best idea to save money. Just go ahead and put all of them in portable buildings. Stack them right next to each other, throw some cheap tables and chairs in there and a couple chalkboards. I'm sure the whole plan would not cost more than $1M to complete. Then again we could just revamp all of our schools in Duval County with real buildings and use those now unused portables to save even more...

Hey, if it works for the majority of our schools, why not them??

-MK

[thelakelander]

Yes Downtown DC has a height restriction (taller than 7 stories) and it is definately an exception to the rule. 

[heights unknown]

another question....why is a 7-story building considered "suburban"....you all may want to check the average height of buildings in Washington D.C.....like the Supreme Court for example....downtown buidings don't need to be tall!

Am I mistaken that DC has building height restrictions?  If I am not, you have just attempted to use the exception to establish a rule.

We want it to be tall because we honestly feel it will save more money, and, we want our skyline to have another tall to fill in that area of town in the skyline, and, we are all "tall addicts" and/or "tall queens" and would love to have another tall buildling grace and enhance our skyline.

Yes, I too am a "tall freak!"

Heights Unknown

[tufsu1]

since you all brought my post from Jan back up....the heigh restriction in DC is around 15 stories...Philly had an unwritten rule of no more than 25 floors before 1987.

Tall buildings are nice.... but the pedestrian view (or street view) is more important....given all of the vacant land in our very large downtown, constructing a mid-rise building over several blocks may not be a such a bad idea....especially if it is able to balance the need for security with a relatively nice pedestrian street ambience.

[thelakelander]

The problem is not the height.  There's nothing wrong with a mid rise building that interacts with its urban surroundings, as opposed to a plan that creates huge dead zones.  Cost aside, site integration is probably the major issue for those looking for the project to spur seamless additional compact development and foot traffic in the Northbank area.

[thelakelander]

Take a look at the new Charlotte county courthouse. 



Building architecture aside, the layout is designed in a way that also encourages foot traffic at street level.

A. The midrise building (its nine stories) uses a compact space of land.  This means every single square inch of the property is used, as opposed to leaving patches of left over unusable open space.  The layout also creates a covered walkway along the street edges, protecting through foot traffic from oppressing heat or rain storms.  Chalk that up as a plus for the pedestrian.

B. The courthouse, like many office towers, has its own cafe space.  However, the cafe fronts the street and was designed to have a separate entry from the main courthouse entrance. This design features makes the cafe a secondary focal point that can pull in street traffic at another street corner and generate foot traffic between the two entry points.

C. The backside of the building contains a public outdoor plaza, with a secondary entrance to the main courthouse atrium space.

See floor plan here: http://www.nccourts.org/County/Mecklenburg/Documents/building_guide_final.pdf

Overall, these three minor elements of design change the nature of a building that has a use that must focus in on itself.  The entry points are strategically placed to generate foot traffic around the entire block limiting dead zones.  So when we throw out costs (its cheaper to go vertical), the height does not matter.  Its more about designing the interior spaces in a fashion that serves the courthouse's needs and stimulates foot traffic for additional growth in the area of downtown its located in.  For $350 million, we should be able to do better.

[finehoe]

GAO says millions of dollars are wasted on federal courthouses that are too big

By Ed O'Keefe
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, June 4, 2010; B03

Call it "Extreme Makeover: Courthouse Edition."

Some federal judges and court workers occupy courthouses that are bigger than necessary, according to a preliminary report by government auditors.

The Government Accountability Office revealed last week that 27 of the 33 federal courthouses built by the General Services Administration since 2000 contain about 3.6 million square feet of extra space -- or 28 percent of the total federal court space built in the last decade. The excess space has soaked up $835 million in construction costs and $51 million in annual rent and operations costs, the GAO said.

The report came at the request of a House subcommittee that oversees federal court construction. It cited three reasons for the excess space: Courthouses are being built larger than the space authorized by Congress, federal courts are overestimating their space needs, and judges aren't sharing courtrooms. The plus-size courthouses include the newer annex to the E. Barrett Prettyman U.S. Courthouse in downtown Washington and the Sandra Day O'Connor U.S. Courthouse in Phoenix.

"The findings of government waste, mismanagement, and disregard for the congressional authorization process are appalling," Rep. Mario Diaz-Balart (R-Fla.) said last week at a hearing focused on the findings.

But Robert A. Peck, GSA Public Buildings Service commissioner, said auditors incorrectly included negative space in the atriums of tall buildings and "phantom floors" in double-height courtrooms. The incorrect measurements meant auditors mistakenly assigned normal operating and construction costs to the empty space, he said.

"We built only courtrooms requested by the judiciary and authorized by Congress," Peck said. "GSA has been forthright and transparent in all of our documents, testimony, and briefings to Congress throughout the history of our courthouse program."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/02/AR2010060204456.html

[JeffreyS]

At this point we just have to finish the damn thing. We can remember what we did wrong at election time.

[duvaldude08]

Im not gonna lie though.. I dont agree with the cost, but it is sure nice to look at them build it. 

[tufsu1]

well the GAO report is about Federal courthouses...so if there's an issue in Jax, it is with the new tower next to Hemming Plaza

[kells904]

Well...let's see if we can't make lemonade out of this situation.  When the time comes, perhaps some really smart people can come up with designs for some other structures around the courthouse that can take advantaged of the otherwise useless space?