Duval County Courthouse: How much is too much?

[Midway ®]

And while you're at it, could you also post a detailed architectural rendering of the inside of your new building as well?

[thelakelander]

oh yeah...if you could post a site plan, it might help your argument....I mean from what I see, the builkding likely meets the sidewalk on 3 sides....and I don't see where any streets are guarnteed to be closed.

I don't have a plan on me right now, but here's a description of what it was in November, when the new plan first came out. 

Considering the completed parking garage and existing old Federal Courthouse take up two blocks, there's five square blocks of grass remaining.  The new complex, as designed, is take up four blocks and the city will hold on to the last for possible expansion in the future.  It would most likely be landscaped until the need for expansion comes along.  Clay and Pearl would both end up being closed, but Monroe, while being re-routed, would remain open.

As far as the height issue goes, the claim is that the judges don't want a vertical building because it would be dangerous to have prisoners moved.  Considering the building is already 7 stories, its already "vertical", so whether its 7 or 14, thats an issue that still has to be dealt with.

[thelakelander]

And while you're at it, could you also post a detailed architectural rendering of the inside of your new building as well?

I don't have a new building.  Tonight, the city council will hold a meeting discussing the pros and cons of various options.  Personally, I hope more effort is put into the idea of a public/private relationship to get it done, as opposed to forcing the city into more debt on a building that sucks up too much valuable property.

[Jason]

The red and orange area outlined in black is the location of the proposed courthouse.  The orange area is the location within the four block area that the proposed building will sit on.  The building will sit across Hogan facing east and west.

The large structure to the right of the orange area is the recently completed courthouse garage that sits empty....

To the left of the blue square is the old Federal Courthouse and in front of that is the new federal courthouse.







Personally, the area I outlined in blue could be a great location for a compact vertical courthouse because of its vicinity to the new garage, other courthouses, and skyway station at Hemming Park.

But since the four block square has already been purchased the location in orange makes the most sence for a structure that crossed over Hogan.  I'm not against blocking the road but it has to be done in a manner that addresses its surroundings and leaves the remaining two blocks for private development.

[thelakelander]

I think it would be great if the entire thing could sit on the area of blue, they keep the lot just west of that for future expansion and sell off the remaining three for private development and leave all the streets open.  The value of those lots go up big time with a new $272 building sitting complex next door.

If the blue lot is left open and reserved for future development, it kills the chance of good connectivity taking place between everything east of Julia, unless they plan to poor a boatload of money into making it a public square....which defeats the purpose of Hemming Plaza.

[Jason]

What building is that on the blue lot, do you know?

[thelakelander]

Thats the construction trailer for the courthouse.

[Jason]

Ha!! 

[Lunican]

Here is a shot:

[Lunican]

This is what used to be there:

[Lunican]

You guys want a signature landmark building? This was the Duval County Courthouse:



One of the ugliest parking garages known to man now sits in its place.

[tufsu1]

nice pic of the old courthouse....it kind of makes my point....major public/civic buildings are supposed to be landmarks.

now the argument of some is that we can't afford to build a landmark given the financial situation...my take on that is if you can't spend the $ to do it right, don't do it at all!

[Lunican]

I don't think courthouses are "supposed" to be landmarks, that's just how they were historically built. Since Jacksonville has already destroyed its landmark courthouse, the opportunity has been lost.

I guess it just depends on ones definition of "doing it right", but a courthouse is "supposed" to be a functional building for holding court.

[thelakelander]

nice pic of the old courthouse....it kind of makes my point....major public/civic buildings are supposed to be landmarks.

This should kill the point of thinking that a landmark must have grass in front of it.

Savannah City Hall

http://www.terragalleria.com/america/georgia/savannah/picture.usga38384.html

Is it not a landmark? 

now the argument of some is that we can't afford to build a landmark given the financial situation...my take on that is if you can't spend the $ to do it right, don't do it at all!

Why can't we build a landmark within budget?  Is the design team that poor that it can't be done at a reasonable price?  Btw, just because someone spends an insane amount of money for something does not mean they are "doing it right".  For proof all you need to look at is the riderless skyway.  Something 100 times better could have been built for a fraction of the cost.

Btw, guys I stopped by the meeting tonight for about an hour.  To sum it up I felt bad for Hollingsworth and Mosley, both of which were getting taking to task by the council.  I couldn't stick around, but unless they did a 180, I don't the $400 million plan will survive in its current state.

[thelakelander]

How about some more landmarks that meet the street?

Old New York County Courthouse - NYC


Allegheny County Courthouse - Pittsburgh


These should prove beyond a doubt that a civic landmark can be created without excess sod and setbacks.  I'm not saying ours definately has to be this way, but given the price tag, we need to find a way to reduce the cost and the easiest way to cut the budget, short of shrinking the building is to reduce the amount of land area used.  As for the entrance, it does not necessarily have to tightly abut the sidewalk.  It would be a perfect anchor point for a public space that includes retail or cultural establishments lining its borders.

Redwood, CA (a short walk from the Caltrain commuter rail station)

The City of Redwood City is pleased to offer three concession spaces in Courthouse Square, the new outdoor “living room” in the heart of Downtown, in front of the historic County Courthouse building / History Museum.

The Square includes:

Two pavilions - each with two concession spaces
Movable café seating
Four decorative water fountains
Landscaping
This beautiful new public space will be comfortable and inviting for residents and visitors to Redwood City’s downtown, employees on their lunch hour, visitors to the San Mateo County History Museum (inside the historic Courthouse), and special events.

Each concession space includes an enclosed area of approximately 190 square feet that can be used for food and beverage operations or other sales activity that provides a complementary fit with the Square and the revitalized Downtown.

http://www.redwoodcity.org/cds/redevelopment/downtown/tomorrow/squarerfq.html