Duval County Courthouse: How much is too much?

[Lunican]

Apparently if the Council does nothing, the current contract with Turner to build a criminal only courthouse will move forward with construction starting late summer/early fall 2008. The Council also previously approved money for the design of an integrated criminal and civil courthouse that they were unaware of.

Pretty much nothing was decided. The questions coming from the Council probably should have been asked about 5 years ago.

[Ocklawaha]

What a bunch of whiners... Get a life for gosh sakes. Don't you see a Jacksonville simplicity to the current plans?

1. We convert the Union Terminal into a high-school gym size Convention Center

2. We anchor it with a Skyway that doesn't go anywhere.

3. We build a landing mall without parking and far too small for big ticket events or big box stores.

4. We wreck the JSI shipyards and build residential towers with folding parking lots.

5. We'll build a new court house at the high-school Gym Convention Center

6. Take down River City Brewing so we can build a real fish camp downtown

7. Take down the Metropolitan Park and the Frendship Fountain and consolidate them by the fish camp.

8. We build a giant new convention center on the moon scape created by the current court house site
(we'll regain the high school cheerleader champs.)

9. The Hyatt will expand their ballroom to twice the size of our giant new convention center. (Hyatt will take the high school cheerleader champs)

10. Amtrak will finally get funded and need to stop at our new Transportation Center built over and all around our new Prime Osbourne Courthouse.

11. We'll blow a hole through Durkeeville to bring a new railroad in to build an Amtrak Terminal North of the proposed Greyhound Site.

12. We'll connect the old Terminal tunnels with the old bank and other city tunnels for an underground BRT system, but we'll only use gasoline powered vehicles down below... This system will do two things, keep all of these exciting new things connected and the emissions will keep our population stupid enough to buy into all of it!

13. Friendship fountain will be reconstructed in Green Cove Springs, but the Sulfur will turn it green.

14. JTA will propose building the Skyway from the new Convention Center to the new Courthouse. Also from the New Convention Center to the Hyatt Center. A branchline will extend to the former metropolitan park flex space, to be used only in the event of another Super Bowl. There will also be a proposal to build a BRT line from the New Convention Center to the Hyatt Center. A branchline will extend to the former metropolitan park flex space, to be used on in the event of another Super Bowl.

15. As a result of all of this new civic building spree, our new fee's will go up about 50x times and Motel Six will announce a new 60 room mega hotel at the corner of State and Main Street... Go figure...

Ocklawaha

[tufsu1]

how does the courthouse shown in Redwood, CA meet the street?

I never said the building had to be set back or have grass in front....a civic plaza (as shown in redwood) would be fine...so would having the building come up to the street

But until you show me a site plan, I will not be convinced the design is poor....I mean Lake said the building takes up 4 blocks....somebody else said 2....which is it?

[Lunican]

tufsu... if you think you are confused, you should have heard council last night. yikes.

[thelakelander]

how does the courthouse shown in Redwood, CA meet the street?

With a vibrant spot for civil and cultural activity in the form of a public square.  This would be great for the courthouse, except that we already have Hemming Plaza.  It would be nice is the creation of something like that could be done along Monroe to connect with the old Federal Courthouse, Ed Ball Building, Federal Courthouse and Hemming Plaza.  However, this isn't the main issue concerning our courthouse. 

I never said the building had to be set back or have grass in front....a civic plaza (as shown in redwood) would be fine...so would having the building come up to the street

But until you show me a site plan, I will not be convinced the design is poor....I mean Lake said the building takes up 4 blocks....somebody else said 2....which is it?

Adam Mosley and Ron Littlepage both claim the complex will take up four blocks with one left for future expansion.  The main issue is that the plan will cost taxpayers $400 million and we simply don't have it.  This means we need to find ways to reduce the cost, not borrow more money.  One of the easiest ways to do that is to cut back the amount of land area the building takes up. 

Number of blocks aside, we do know that its 800,000sf building spread over 7 floors.  If we can go to 14 floors, you free up half the land area now set aside and cover the same amount of floor area.  In fact, this was Autcher's solution before they went belly up.  Doing this would then offer the opportunity to sell the extra land to the private sector which would find it desirable to be right next door to a new $272 million building.  The money made from that land sale, along with the sale of the Bay Street lot could then be used to reduce the impact of the building's overall cost on John Q. Taxpayer.

Then factor in downtown's problem of connectivity and the fact that most likely three sides of the courthouse will be pretty dead, in terms of pedestrian activity.  So not only is excess land not taken advantage of, we're also willing to accept nearly everything between Broad and Pearl to remain as dead pedestrian pockets, even after the complex opens.  So, considering we can't afford a design that takes up twice as much land area as the previous design/build group's solution, yes the design to reduce in height and spread out horizontally is a poor one. 

[tufsu1]

ahh...we're finally getting somewhere

800,000 sq. ft. over 7 floors = 115,000 sq. ft. per floor (assuming all are of equal size)

each block in the area is about 200' x 300' = 60,000 sq. ft.

So based on this, the proposed building fits on 2 blocks.....not 4!

[Jason]

That's what I said.  The diagram I posted assumed that the front two blocks would be consumed by the proposed building.  The footprint you see is pretty close to what the building will occupy.

[thelakelander]

ahh...we're finally getting somewhere

800,000 sq. ft. over 7 floors = 115,000 sq. ft. per floor (assuming all are of equal size)

each block in the area is about 200' x 300' = 60,000 sq. ft.

So based on this, the proposed building fits on 2 blocks.....not 4!

The 800,000 sq. ft. is interior air-conditioned space only.  Add in the thickness of exterior walls, etc. and it takes up more space.

Nevertheless, even at those numbers there would not be much setback between the building and the surrounding streets.  If any landscaped setback is included on a structure that size, it could easily take up more than two city blocks.

Now lets try to get somewhere with this.

Current proposal
800,000 sq. ft. over 7 floors = 115,000 sq. ft. per floor (assuming all are of equal size)

reducing the land area
800,000 sq. ft. over 14 floors = 57,143 sq. ft. per floor (assuming all are of equal size)

This means even if the original takes up two blocks and results in closing a street, at 14 floors you only take up one block or half of the land area.  Instead of holding on to that half, you sell it to the private sector once the new courthouse is complete.  Whatever that value is, along with the value of the riverfront property is millions of profit coming to the city that can be used to offset the cost of building a $272 million courthouse building. 

Is this not a sure fire way to possibly reduce the $400 million pricetag facing John Q. Taxpayer?

[second_pancake]

Another idea would be to completely re-evaluate the staff we have occupying the current building and start making some much needed staff reduction.

[Lunican]

Does anyone know many square feet the proposed $400 million civil and criminal courthouse would be?

And why does Duval County need so much more space than Mecklenburg County? More criminals?

[thelakelander]

good question.

New Courthouse - 801,274 sq. ft.
Old Federal Courthouse - 174,740 sq. ft.
Ed Ball Building - 70,000 sq. ft.
Total - 1,046,014 sq. ft.

[thelakelander]

Expensive new courthouse plan receives a new motto

By RON LITTLEPAGE, The Times-Union

First, an update:

In a column published Tuesday, I wrote that if John McCain wins the Republican nomination and picks Gov. Charlie Crist as his running mate, a hot topic in the political speculation world, Crist would have to resign his governorship to run.

Well, guess what. During his first few months in office, Crist signed into law a bill that changed Florida's resign-to-run requirement, which had been in effect for three decades, to exclude those seeking a federal office.

How convenient.

To increase his popularity, he goes after property taxes, and disregards the negative effects on local governments. He endorses McCain at a key moment in the campaign to curry favor with him. When asked about a potential vice presidential run, he refuses to say no. And he signed a law that would allow it.

Crist is the ultimate politician. Was this his plan all along?

Moving on to Peyton's Folly, the new courthouse. Administration officials began trying to convince City Council members to support Peyton's vision of a $400 million courthouse during a special council meeting Wednesday evening. They ran into tough sledding.

Councilman Stephen Joost asked a pertinent question: Didn't the passage of Amendment 1, which will sharply reduce the city's property tax revenue, change the landscape?

Shouldn't the council know the effects of that reduction on other city services and programs before considering increasing the $263 million budgeted for a courthouse by $132 million?

(Remember, this was a courthouse that voters who approved the Better Jacksonville Plan had been told would cost $190 million.)

Councilwoman Denise Lee hammered home another point: Wouldn't taking at least $8 million a year for 30 years out of the general fund to pay off the additional debt cut into the ability to do other needed capital projects?

It was like pulling teeth, but she finally got an answer that, of course, it would.

The City Council is taking the correct approach to the courthouse.

Wednesday evening council members discussed legal questions and funding mechanisms. They then began looking at options, starting with a proposal to convert the Prime Osborn Convention Center into a courthouse instead of building Peyton's $400 million version.

The council will continue that discussion and look at other options when it next meets on the courthouse.

Here are some questions that need answers in the meantime:

A consultant hired by the city told council members that the projected cost of $200 million to convert the Prime into a courthouse was wrong and that it actually would cost $21 million more than Peyton's plan.

Those numbers need to be closely examined.

For instance, how does the consultant's price per square foot compare with the costs of recently built courthouses in other cities?

The city told the consultant that a 2-acre lot adjacent to the Prime would have to be purchased at a cost of $6 million. The current market value of that land, according to city records, is $1.8 million. Why the difference?

There may be a lot of reasons why the Prime wouldn't do as a courthouse, but the council needs to make sure the numbers aren't being inflated.

Wednesday's meeting did produce a new, obviously rehearsed talking point.

Administration officials repeatedly called the new courthouse "critical infrastructure for the community that meets a critical need."

I suppose parks and libraries and decent roads aren't "critical needs" in the administration's view, as they will be the losers if this much money is sucked out of the general fund.

Which would you rather have, a nice park to enjoy or a fancy new courthouse?

ron.littlepage@jacksonville.com, (904) 359-4284

http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/020108/opl_242470162.shtml

[thelakelander]

Take a second look

By The Times-Union

Mayor John Peyton's most recent courthouse plan - to build a single, $400 million facility at LaVilla - seemed to make sense a few months ago, when he proposed it.

But circumstances have changed.

On Tuesday, voters approved a property tax referendum. As a result, City Hall will have less revenue.

How much less? About $30 million, according to the Mayor's Office.

To make up the difference, the city will have to raise fees or cut expenses.

In light of that, does the city want to increase spending on the courthouse?

Current plans call for building a criminal courts facility now, at a cost of $260 million, and adding civil courts space later - when the city can afford it.

If the City Council votes to build everything at once, like Peyton now wants, it will take on at least $8 million a year in new debt service for 30 years.

That made sense before the property tax amendment took away tens of millions of dollars in city revenues. It makes less sense now.

Not that the "full courthouse" plan should be jettisoned, necessarily. But take a fresh look.

The city has many pressing problems, and they all require money to fix. Wider roads are needed, for example, and some neighborhoods still use septic tanks.

It will be tough, with property tax revenues shrinking, to address those problems and assume millions of dollars more of debt service on the courthouse.

And pressure also is building for a massive expansion of the Sheriff's Office. That, if it happens, will take a lot of money.

Where will it come from?

Shouldn't the council answer that question before - rather than after - it commits to spending millions of dollars a year more on the courthouse project?

Significant new fees were imposed last year, at the same time visible spending cuts were inflicted. Library hours were reduced, for example.

It figures that more of those cuts will be necessary to make up the current shortfall. If so, how much of it could be avoided by sticking to the old "half courthouse" plan?

City Council should consider the courthouse as part of the entire budget, not as a stand-alone item.

Don't approve the mayor's plan now - and find out later that a series of unpopular fee increases and cuts in services are needed to correct a budget imbalance that the plan helped create.

It may still make sense to follow the mayor's plan.

But the lost revenues are significant enough to merit a long and objective re-evaluation, based on overall city needs.

http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/020108/opi_242457277.shtml

[urbanlibertarian]

What if the city were to go ahead with the criminal court building that's already approved and  move the civil court, family court, juvenille court, etc. to empty buildings in that general area like Jones Bros furniture, Ind. Life/JEA, Ambassador Hotel, Old Old Federal Reserve, etc.?  Would that save tax dollars and preserve some of the remaining historic buildings?

[thelakelander]

It would definately save some of the older buildings.  I don't know how much money it would save or if its really feasible, but it would be better than turning the Prime Osborn into a courthouse.