PORT EXPANSION and 3 Missing projects...

[Ocklawaha]

Where did you get the 1/3 number TU? APTA and ATA have both published 25% recovery from farebox and 75% of expense from labor. I'd love to correct this if indeed the numbers have improved that much.

OCKLAWAHA

[tufsu1]

I was rounding Ock and may have been somewhat off...I know rail systems typically get about 40% recovery while buses are lower.

btw...FDOT recently released their 2009 Transportation Trends publication...it showed that average transit operating expense per passenger trip was close to $4 in 2008 (about $2.75 in 2000)...keep in mind that JTA charges $1 per trip...I wonder how much people in jax. would be willing to pay?

[thelakelander]

^I think the true answer depends on how good the service provided is.  Nevertheless, $4 for one way fare is pretty high.

[CS Foltz]

Once again tufsu1 you make unfounded assumptions and I am getting of tired of it! You seem to be the typical "Consultant" that tailors an answer for the paying customer!So once again I ask, do you know just how much money JTA takes in for Advertising on the bus's?A simple yes or no will suffice. I thought you would know since you seem to have all of the answers! I am trying to get a grasp on just what revenue's JTA has coming in to offset what they get from the City! You pointed out once that the lower income segment of Jacksonville is more inclined to use public transportation so based on that statement I would guess you would be inclined to raise rates to something more in line with actual cost per passenger mile than what is current? I am for honest, transparent and cost effective government whether it is at the local or the Federal level. I do not believe in Fee's being imposed to balance books or to circumvent voter approval! I believe in getting the most for my tax dollars and I don't believe in wasting much of anything! If that offends you .........sorry but thats a difference of opinion! Your welcome to yours!














government whether it is local to the Federal level

[Ocklawaha]

I was rounding Ock and may have been somewhat off...I know rail systems typically get about 40% recovery while buses are lower.

btw...FDOT recently released their 2009 Transportation Trends publication...it showed that average transit operating expense per passenger trip was close to $4 in 2008 (about $2.75 in 2000)...keep in mind that JTA charges $1 per trip...I wonder how much people in jax. would be willing to pay?

Don't know but if you'll check the Skyway on the DOT site, you will find between $10 and $17 dollar per pax per mile number. OUCH! Yet it is totally fixable. National Light Rail/Streetcar numbers are close to .31 cents per passenger.

None of the Monorail systems are cheap, in fact $3.00 to $7.00 per passenger per mile is about the norm.

OCKLAWAHA

[tufsu1]

btw...FDOT recently released their 2009 Transportation Trends publication...it showed that average transit operating expense per passenger trip was close to $4 in 2008 (about $2.75 in 2000)...keep in mind that JTA charges $1 per trip...I wonder how much people in jax. would be willing to pay?

let me clarify...the $4 per trip was an average for all the transit systems in Florida

[tufsu1]

Once again tufsu1 you make unfounded assumptions and I am getting of tired of it! You seem to be the typical "Consultant" that tailors an answer for the paying customer!So once again I ask, do you know just how much money JTA takes in for Advertising on the bus's?A simple yes or no will suffice.

well CS...according to JTA's own annual report, advertising accounts for about 3% of all revenues (approximatley $0.5 million out of $17.5 million).

As you can see, its a pretty paltry amount...but without it, fares or taxes would need to be higher!

[CS Foltz]

Much thanks for the information! But that leads me to an additional thought.......

btw...FDOT recently released their 2009 Transportation Trends publication...it showed that average transit operating expense per passenger trip was close to $4 in 2008 (about $2.75 in 2000)...keep in mind that JTA charges $1 per trip...I wonder how much people in jax. would be willing to pay?

let me clarify...the $4 per trip was an average for all the transit systems in Florida

if there is a choice between BRT or LR/Street Cars based on that............$.31 per passenger mile should be a no brainer! Cost differential between the two systems is night and day! So why would JTA push for something that is not cost effective .............I mean $4.00 compared to $.31 per pax mile! Looks like they are just opting for what is in their best interest's not the publics! I would not approve a tax increase for  more bus's!

[Ocklawaha]

Keep in mind the monorail figures are HIGHLY skewed, when you consider we have the closest thing to a SYSTEM that there is in the USA out side of Disney. All of that technology and brain power operating a 2 or 4 mile system is a waste. Stretch the system out and you cut your cost to mile, making the damn thing MUCH more useful. But that involved expansion and City Hall is led by a herd of Neanderthals.

OCKLAWAHA

[tufsu1]

if there is a choice between BRT or LR/Street Cars based on that............$.31 per passenger mile should be a no brainer! Cost differential between the two systems is night and day! So why would JTA push for something that is not cost effective .............I mean $4.00 compared to $.31 per pax mile! Looks like they are just opting for what is in their best interest's not the publics! I would not approve a tax increase for  more bus's!

maybe because regular bus service on streets has minimal capital costs compared to rail...and because for the most of the decade (or more) we have had a Fedarl Transit Administation that was anti-rail.

[tufsu1]

Keep in mind the monorail figures are HIGHLY skewed, when you consider we have the closest thing to a SYSTEM that there is in the USA out side of Disney. All of that technology and brain power operating a 2 or 4 mile system is a waste. Stretch the system out and you cut your cost to mile, making the damn thing MUCH more useful. But that involved expansion and City Hall is led by a herd of Neanderthals.

OCKLAWAHA

true...and the $4 I quoted earlier was per passenger trip...not per passenger mile...obviously, Skyway trips are quite short, which skews the per mile cost.

[CS Foltz]

Neanderthals will be coming for you Ock............lumping them in with City Hall! Neaderthals are upset but City Hall could care less! Even if the $kyway were extended to Stadium and other points, cost would be prohibitive unless we are will to raise taxes to support that and I don't see it happening anytime soon guys! I would not go for it at all! Now if you can convinve the Fed's (yes ...I know still our tax money) maybe but and thats a very large but, I can't see it integrating with the proposed BRT for downtown! I keep looking at the cost per passenger mile......bus compared to rail is a no brainer to me. Yes I understand capital outlay at the onset is more but..........6 High Dollar Bus's (3.6 Million, based on 600K per bus) which I have never seen with more than a dozen people at any one time,actual cost around $4 per passenger mile versus Street Car @ .31 per passenger mile after initial cost outlay......both systems use depreciation to offset outlay cost's and granted Rail would be more expensive upfront! But rail & car service life compared to road and bus life two different worlds! So if I had any say in the matter I think I would telling Federal Transit hockey pucks to get out of town! Dollar costs and value just say to me that "Bus  Vacumns"!

[tufsu1]

actual cost around $4 per passenger mile versus Street Car @ .31 per passenger mile after initial cost outlay......

once again, its $4 per PASSENGER TRIP, not per passenger mile....so if the average trip is 10 miles (which matches up w/ person trip data for our area but may not for state or local transit), that would be $0.40 per passenger mile.

Get it?

[CS Foltz]

Yeah ....I got it tufsu1..........bus equals .40 per passenger trip and rail equals .31 per passenger mile. Not sure about the "person trip data for our area matches up but may not for state or LOCAL TRANSIT"? Based on that not sure if your figures apply since last time I checked we are looking at local mass transit possibilities! Bus still ain't worth squat, except to substantiate JTA and their existence. That would also make me think that any and all figures are skewed and biased....especially if those numbers came from the Federal Transit Administration or Florida Dept of Transportation!

[tufsu1]

way to change direction CS...do you automatically distrust stats that don't support your theories?

the reason I'm not sure about the 10 miles is because that is the average trip length including car trips for our area...I suspect that most transit trips in Jax. are in fact shorter than that....but keep in mind the $0.31 stat provided by ock isn't for Jax. either....most train trips (even urban rail systems) are longer than bus trips!