PORT EXPANSION and 3 Missing projects...

[Ocklawaha]

With a rapidly expanding port setting off a new land boom in Jacksonville, I am confident that we will see the revival of many a downtown project. We could well see the best times any of us have ever dreamed of, just around the corner. I, being an incurable romantic, might have been the lone Confederate at Gettysburg, yelling, "Just one more rock to throw and we'll win this damned fight!" Just so you understand my point of view, so here is my "A" list. Things we have NEVER CONSIDERED HERE! In my never so humble opinion, we could really use the leadership to go after 3 major projects that we have not approached in these boards:


Photo of our one time huge Terminal Railroad, this COULD BE for freight as well

1. A City Owned, Joint Terminal Railroad, along the lines of THE JACKSONVILLE TERMINAL COMPANY, that would reconstruct the former ACL bridge over the Trout River. Also connect the City Terminal at Talleyrand, with the trackage to Hecksher Drive and Blount Island. Much of this trackage is in place, a good deal of the missing route, the Trout River Bridge and such WERE in place 30 years ago. We just need to put them back. Yes, I understand there is a light density railroad bridge over the Trout now, and perhaps CSX would sell it to the City and negate the need to build a new one. But the older bridge has a draw-span which is expensive to operate and maintain, building a true modern bridge with several tracks and using a joint access plan would allow our shipping access to 3 major railroads, and one shortline.


The Kinney Tunnel in downtown Fort Lauderdale, Florida

2. It's time to re-build or re-think the Dames Point/Captain Broward Bridge. This beautiful bridge does not score high in the national safety rankings and it is now a REAL danger and road block to our becoming a World Port leader. The JTA folks just built the darn thing WAY TOO LOW. Perhaps we need to study a tunnel? Perhaps a bridge AND tunnel under the channel? Mobile, Alabama, which is as Coastal and low lying as our riverfront, has several under harbor tunnels, So does Virginia, Michigan, Maryland, New Jersey, and New York. Why not Jacksonville, if that single bridge is blocking thousands upon thousands of future jobs and a building boom?


Bakersfield, California, a fraction of our size built THIS new terminal for Passenger Rail.

3. IF and that is a BIG IF, the City decides to go the safe route (imagine that!) and keep the Prime Osbourne as our Convention Center. If the promised development of LaVilla comes about along with the expansion of the Prime Osbourne, then it's time to do sometime unique. We should take a serious look at building a new "UNION STATION" perhaps on the Brooklyn side of McCoys Creek. Perhaps 1/3 as large as the original, we should create a rail center every bit as Fantastic, or Greek, or Art Deco, or Futuristic as JTA plans for the SUPER-BUS CENTER. The Lee-Park Street Viaduct should be re-re-built to allow the passage of trains under the North End, which JTA closed up. A steeper grade might buy us 2 or 3 more tracks for commuter rail, light rail and Amtrak.
With the Northeast Corridor loudly saying it is coming to Florida. With the CSX application for CORRIDOR expansion from Washington DC to Miami via Jax. We're beyond remiss if we don't act fast, I'd say we're a Daisy if we don't...

That's my view, what's yours?

Ocklawaha

[Jason]

All fantastic ideas Ock.  Industry, tourism, and travel are the cornerstones of the Jacksonville boom at the turn of the century.  There is no reason to believe that these very things won't do the same for the region if moved back to the top of the priority list.

The only thing I would change is actually moving the convention center to the riverfront and then shifting the proposed transportation center to the Prime Osborne site and refurbishing Union Terminal to bring it back to its glory days.

[thelakelander]

I think we're stuck with the Dames Point.  Is it even 20 years old?

[Jason]

Its really close.  I think it was finished in 89 maybe?

[Ocklawaha]

The Dames Point is pretty new but then it's numbers really stink on the "bridge score". Perhaps that would give us the chance to fund a major re-build or re-think. Right now the funds to fix bridges are on the front burner.

Jason, I agree that Union Station is the BEST of the BEST for Passenger Rail. My project would only fly IF they don't move the convention center. Keeping it there makes the station jump through too many hoops to be of any real use as a Center of rail commerce, IMO.

Ocklawaha

[Seraphs]

It took years and years to finally get the Dames point bridge.  If the port expansion rivals the boon in Dubai we would possibly get a new higher bridge or perhaps a tunnel.  Otherwise I agree with Lake, I think we're stuck with the Damespoint.  I have always wondered why we never got a tunnel here.  Even Mobile, Al has one.

[Ocklawaha]

It's possible we ARE stuck with it, at least the towers and supports. But with us on the cusp of becoming the 4 largest port in the USA, there are a dozen more sources of that money for bridge or crossing expansion that will open to us. The important thing is, we need to not do "The Jacksonville Two Step," and roll over saying the bridge is the best we can do. Example, if our football stadium would have been built in 89, would that have stopped us from knocking it down and building another for the Jags? Bet not! This port is on the brink of true World greatness, if we clamor for the fix, there will be many ways to fund it... Ways we've never seen before.

Ocklawaha

[Lunican]

New York is dealing with the same problem that we have with the Dames Point.

The Bayonne Bridge, completed in 1931, connects Bayonne, NJ and Staten Island, NY. The world’s fourth longest steel arch bridge, it stands 151 feet above the Kill van Kull tidal strait. It is this 151 foot height above mean water level that presents the problem for container ships travelling to reach the container terminals at Staten Island and Port Newark. Some container ships today are too high to pass under the bridge, but this problem will become worse when the Panama Canal expansion is completed, and the next generation of larger container ships, called “Post-Panamax” vessels, will be afloat. In this seventh segment of The Infrastructure Show podcast series, Host Professor Joseph Schofer, Director of Northwestern University's Infrastructure Technology Institute, and Co-Host Tom Herman of Vocalo.org, talk with Frank McDonough, President of the New York Shipping Association, about the challenge the Bayonne Bridge presents to New York and New Jersey shipping, and the options that have been discussed to address the bridge’s height problem. (13 min.) For more information, see the web-site: www.theinfrastructureshow.com.

Audio:
http://www.vocalo.org/files/media_mover/ffmpeg/converted/8/Bayonne_Bridge.mp3.mp3

[mtraininjax]

In Tampa, are they going to replace the Sunshine Skyway Bridge when it too is too small for the newest Cruise Ships?

The cost to replace the Dames Point would be more than the benefit to come from ships. All land East of the Dames Point is in danger of Imminent Domain by the JPA to help grow the port.

Doesn't Genosee & Wyoming control the Tallyrand Rail system now? Why would we want to add a city funded rail system to a bloated utility like the JEA? Are you a closet big government guy?

[Ocklawaha]

In Tampa, are they going to replace the Sunshine Skyway Bridge when it too is too small for the newest Cruise Ships?

The cost to replace the Dames Point would be more than the benefit to come from ships. All land East of the Dames Point is in danger of Imminent Domain by the JPA to help grow the port.

Doesn't Genosee & Wyoming control the Tallyrand Rail system now? Why would we want to add a city funded rail system to a bloated utility like the JEA? Are you a closet big government guy?

NO! NO! NO! mtrain, my idea is for municipal ownership of the rest of the trackage from Yulee, or Kingsland/Riceboro all the way to Jacksonville Terminal via the "S" as well and all trackage east of the old F&J North-South line (Maxwell House north through Springfield - Panama - Trout River - Bush - Airport Road - Yulee). This same trackage would then be LEASED back to a terminal road such as G&W's Talleyrand Terminal, Rail America, First Coast RR, or Watco (all have a presence in Jacksonville already).

Talleyrand Terminal operates the former Municipal Docks and Terminal Railroad of Jacksonville. We once had several other terminal roads in town, REX, USN (3), Mayport Terminal Company, Atlantic and East Coast Terminal, MD&T, JAXPORT (the original Blount Island Operation), Jacksonville Terminal Company, St. Johns River Terminal Company, and the Watco Terminals, as well as several other Port and Industrial Railways.

The purpose of this City ownership would be to have the say in when and where we introduce Port Improvements (big money payback) and Commuter Rail (an eternal investment that needs tight control). Hell I don't want the City or JTA or JPA or JAA or, or, or, anywhere near these tracks for operations. Let the railroaders run the railroads, we'll call in occasional plays (improvements) from the sidelines.

Are you with me?


OCKLAWAHA

[mtraininjax]

Ock - The City can't even balance their own budgets. How do you expect to have City Ownership of any venture that is self-sustaining? The track record here is pitiful.

The only way I ever see rail working in this town, is with something at SJTC. That has become to the center of the city, like it or not, so the first rail project, whatever it is, will involve the St Johns Town Center core. You can run rail down the middle of JTB to FEC, you can build a system to connect the buildings to each other, but something rail-oriented will be part of SJTC. It is the most popular place in Jacksonville, and now with "Whiskey River" (who dreams up these names), it will continue to grow and expand.

[Ocklawaha]

I agree that STJTC would make a great spot to focus a beach bound rail link, swing into the FEC right of way and head into downtown Jacksonville Terminal. This would be killer good for the city and the mall, but I don't expect anything will be done as Mr. Clem has already told us "Light rail is not a good fit for Jacksonville..."  So watch for your town center to be linked by some form of "super bus," costing more then light rail, and doing much less.

The office complexes between Philips Highway and Town Center would be a great test bed for the new PRT ultra light monorails to feed the Light Rail, which until we see real change, will never happen.

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

LRT in Jax is a pipe dream at this point and BRT is proposed to run down Beach instead of JTB.  The only thing SJTC will be served by is regular local bus service.

[stjr]

2. It's time to re-build or re-think the Dames Point/Captain Broward Bridge. This beautiful bridge does not score high in the national safety rankings and it is now a REAL danger and road block to our becoming a World Port leader. The JTA folks just built the darn thing WAY TOO LOW.

Ock, the crime is that JPA, the City, and JTA were told the bridge was both too low and that the towers' locations so close to the channel were a danger to maritime navigation by the bridge's critics at the time including the Jacksonville Shipyards.

But the GOB's land owning friends smelled a killing and needed the bridge built on the cheap which meant lowering the clearance and reducing the span distance.  Building on the cheap was necessary at the time because it was to be a toll bridge and if the bridge were to cost more, the tolls would have had to be so high that the traffic counts would be too low, not generating the funds to service the financing bonds.   In short, another GOB, cheap-*ss, get-it-done-future-be-damned project.  Just like the courthouse, convention center, Adams Mark/Hyatt, etc.  Everyone a failure and/or regret.

[CS Foltz]

stjr.........like you stated, GOB Network hard at it! They are busy lining their pockets at our expense!