Insane High Speed Rail Math In Florida

[thelakelander]

As you know, I agree (other than the I-95 serves sprawl part)...but what's your long-term vision?

By I-95 serving sprawl, I'm referring to the majority of the line's length, north of Palm Beach, Broward and Miami-Dade.  I believe the key to success for statewide intercity rail is to directly connect the Sarasotas, Melbournes, Titusvilles, Daytonas, Tallahassees and Port St. Lucies of the state just as much as it is to connect the Tampas, Orlandos and Miamis to each other.

As for vision, at this point we don't even have a network.  I'd rather take that $1.5/$2.5 billion for Tampa/Orlando HSR and spread it all over state with an intercity corridor network similar to California.  So my short and long term vision (present to 30 years out) would be to actually establish an intercity network and spend some time establishing local transit options in various cities statewide to complement it.  By planning for intercity rail lines to occur in the cores of Florida's cities, it will give us the best opportunity to redevelop and expand the walkable sections of our communities around transit.  Imo, this is much more important to future of the state's overall development than ignoring established cities in favor of connecting only the 4 or 5 largest.  

[thelakelander]

East Coast to start and enough trains for at least 2 a day.....and that would be two down and two up at staggered hours where something leaves AM at a reasonable hour! If that would be too much then try one a day both ways......we need to start something and the FEC rails at least extend to Miami from Jacksonville. Try a trial program and see just how it works out.....

I'd like to see frequencies equal or similar to Amtrak's Capitol or Pacific Surliner corridors between Florida's cities.

In fiscal year 2005-2006, the Capitol Corridor had about 1.3 million riders per year, and is the third busiest Amtrak route in terms of ridership, surpassed only by the Northeast Corridor and the Pacific Surfliner.

The Capitol Corridor service is commonly used by commuters between the Sacramento area and the Bay Area as an alternative to driving on the congested Interstate 80 corridor. Monthly passes and discounted trip tickets are available on the line. Many high ranking politicians, lobbyists, and their aides choose to live in the Bay Area and commute to their jobs in Sacramento, while workers in the Oakland, San Francisco, and Silicon Valley employment centers take the Capitol Corridor trains from their less expensive homes in Solano County and the Sacramento metropolitan area.

Since August 28, 2006, the Capitol Corridor route has run 32 trains per day (16 in each direction) on weekdays, reflecting a substantial increase over the prior service frequency. According to its management, ridership on the Capitol Corridor trains tripled between 1998 and 2005.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitol_Corridor

[CS Foltz]

lake......I concur! It would be great to connect all medium cities and up with just Rail..........some of the minor ones already have Rail acess (Starke's and the likes)! HSR would be nice for the major to major's, but we have to start somewhere.............Amtrak has that option from what I have seen. Now if they just have the vision beyond what they have going now, we could be off and running!

[Ocklawaha]

You do know of course that it is farther from Pensacola to Miami via rail, then from New York to Chicago. But because of our distance, a late 11:45 pm departure from Pensacola, Tampa, Miami, and Jacksonville, makes for a great overnight with early am arrivals at the other end.

OCKLAWAHA

[CS Foltz]

Pensacola west or east to J'ville would be just fine with me Ock! Rail could be the answer for a variety of issue's ranging from job's to easy acess to all points on the compass! Time will tell and I am just going to kick back and watch!

[Ocklawaha]

Yeah y'all just count on a FEC/Amtrak corridor train to Miami at 7.5 hours overnight. It looks like this on a current long distance schedule:

New York - 6:15 am
Washington - 9:55 am
Richmond - 11:50 am
Fayetteville - 3:44 pm
Charleston - 7:15 pm
Savannah - 9:03 pm
JACKSONVILLE - 11:24 pm
JACKSONVILLE - 11:48 pm
Orlando - 2:55 am
Sebring - 5:05 am
West Palm - 6:54 am
Ft. Lauderdale - 8:02 am
Miami - 8:55 am

Pretty damn sweet huh? But do you think DOT, FDOT, Amtrak, JTA or anyone else will listen? Huh? the FEC route would make that JAX - Miami time about 7.5 hours, for about a 6:55 am arrival in Miami. SWEET! MIA - MDE everyday from the new Transportation Center at Miami.

NEVER SURRENDER! NEVER GIVE UP!

OCKLAWAHA

[CS Foltz]

Ock..........you can forget about JTA, their mentality is set in concrete!(Pun intended)The new Rail Deptartment should be pushing to get into the foray to make their bones.............but until that happens FDOT is a loser!

[tufsu1]

actually I think the FEC plan (including track upgrades) brings the Miami train ride down to about 6.5 hours...even better!

[CS Foltz]

FEC upgrades would be very very welcome! I know the chances of the tracks being fully up to speed at this point is slim! But, got no where to go but up from this period so anything to enhance what is in place is good! Total cost should be no problem since, according to the CSX CEO, Mr Ward..........all money from the sale of the trackage down Orland way will stay in Florida!  Granted FEC is not part of the CSX Network but there are points where they meet or cross connect..........so lets see what takes place!

[tufsu1]

the total cost to re-initiate Amtrak on the FEC is $700 million...which does not include a new station in Jax....Phase 1 costs about $550 million, of which the state has requested half from the Federal high speed rail stimulus funds.

[Ocklawaha]

actually I think the FEC plan (including track upgrades) brings the Miami train ride down to about 6.5 hours...even better!

I'd like to see that TUFSU1, it would be something of a record, certainly faster then anything before us. I just have some doubts about holding that sort of speed through the heavily urbanized area's until the whole right-of-way is fenced and the track bridged rather then crossed by every highway. If that day comes, great, then I would suggest a heavily padded express schedule, to stretch the overnight leg to about 7/7.5 hours. Otherwise we're SOL on any overnight travel SOUTHBOUND.

FYI, (not you so much TU) The historical pattern of almost all Jacksonville - SOUTH routes, is HEAVY southbound in the AM, which slowly dies off about 2 PM, then a parade of northbounds which get super heavy about dusk. Nearly every line had at least one flip train that ran counter to the parade, The Gulf Coast Special (ACL-SCL -Gainesville/Ocala line), The Everglades (ACL-A Line),
The Havana Special (FEC), several SAL trains on the "S" used the schedule over the years, IE: Sun Queen, Palmland, Sunland etc... almost all split in Wildwood and served both coasts of Florida. Amtrak abandoned all night trains southbound - something we need back if we want balance.

OCKLAWAHA

[CS Foltz]

Ock I am somewhat confused as to why "Night Trains" south bound were discontinued? Less heat and possible traffic issue's to contend with I'm guessing! Balance north to south bound runs makes sense......what goes down should go up!

[tufsu1]

or maybe just cutbacks....remember Amtrak took over in the early 70's and without dedicated funding, it has been shrinking ever since!

[Ocklawaha]

Ock I am somewhat confused as to why "Night Trains" south bound were discontinued? Less heat and possible traffic issue's to contend with I'm guessing! Balance north to south bound runs makes sense......what goes down should go up!

The reasons are myriad, but the traditional schedules were built to allow for the most convenient departures and arrivals in New York City - through - Richmond. Jacksonville being about 600 miles out tends toward arrivals from the north in the AM, and departures from the south in the PM. It's fairly easy to see why a train leaving Miami or Tampa at 7:00 am - through about 11:00 am, is going to end up in Jacksonville headed north in the evening. Likewise trains that left midday from the big apple, are rolling into Jax from 7:00 am - through about 11:00 am, for evening arrivals at the resort communities south of us.

Trains that left New York late at night, would cruise through Philadelphia, Wilmington, Baltimore, Washington, Richmond at ungodly hours. Trains leaving NYC late in the day were also subject to barely clearing Washington before midnight. Either case puts those trains through Jax in the late  PM the second day out, thus setting up a almost textbook perfect stage for a quick overnight dash to some tropical terminus by the sea. As late afternoon or evening hours were not the best times to be running to catch a train in the Northeast, these trains all tended to be heavy on "front end revenue cars," IE: Railway Express, Postal Storage Mail, Railway Post Office, and even some containers (in their final years).

When Amtrak took over they destroyed the remnant of the express trains, the former nationwide giant, RAILWAY EXPRESS AGENCY thought they were ready. They changed their corporate name and logo to REA EXPRESS in 1970 in anticipation of Railpax (which became Amtrak the next year). Amtrak started rolling in 1971 and by 1975, REA was bankrupt and shattered.

So now we have BOTH reasons, Amtrak didn't want the risk associated with the late evening departures due to perceived low ridership. Low ridership that wasn't helped in the last 10 years of private rail operations, as these "express" trains lost more and more of their amenity's, such as dining cars, lounge cars, sleepers, etc... Nobody wanted to ride a 31 hour coach train without food!

So even the paperwork would have made them look like big losers, even though that might not have been/be true. With the express business gone and ridership figures in free fall over the last years of operation, they couldn't see between the lines enough to try it. Worse still, in the 18 national long distance routes Amtrak operates, ONLY FLORIDA warrants more then one train daily each way. We had 6 when they started, now we have only 2 left, and they blow through back to back about an hour apart in the early AM heading south, and pm heading north.

Stupid is as stupid does...

OCKLAWAHA

[CS Foltz]

It is a crying shame Ock.......I see possibilities and then some! I understand all about scheduling and the like but in todays day and age, we have a fighting chance for resurrecting some of the old names and schedules! Two aday beats none aday and we have something in the works with FEC/Amtrak! I am trying to maintain a positive mind set and have hopes (now that we have a genuine Rail Department) things could be picking up in the right direction! LR would be nice but we may have to resort to the trickle down theory.....main lines first, then LR in town!