Insane High Speed Rail Math In Florida

[Ocklawaha]

FDOT is like a lava lamp, fun to watch but not very bright.  I'd wasted my time trying to convince FDOT when I could have been doing something useful, like examining my reflection in the bottom of a fine glass.

Some people have their heads stuck where the sun don't shine. Sadly our own FDOT is in such a position on our highly vaunted HIGH SPEED RAIL "Showcase Project". Bah Humbug! Do the math. It is 360 miles from St. Petersburg to Miami, via Orlando and Melbourne, but only 250 miles from St. Petersburg to Miami via I-75. So a non stop Greyhound running at 70 mph would beat the train by as much as an hour counting for station dwell times. You know I really believe that FDOT can make this country what it once was - an Arctic region covered with ice.

The fare?

Glad you asked:
Tampa-Miami     HSR $97    AIRLINE $76    AIRLINE IS -21.6% CHEAPER and takes only 55 minutes

So where is the benefit of a hub and spokes rail system?

That bus fare by the way would be $46.

My question to kick this off is: "Did anybody THINK during the process that led up to these stellar decisions?"

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

Nobody cares.  The super train looks cool and that's all that matters (just joking for those who don't get it).

[CS Foltz]

Ock/lake..........somebody is going to be laughing all the way to the bank if this takes place. Not smart, progressive nor is it cost effective!

[buckethead]

We NEED HSR!

LOOK AT EUROPE!

[tufsu1]

The fare?

Glad you asked:
Tampa-Miami     HSR $97    AIRLINE $76    AIRLINE IS -21.6% CHEAPER and takes only 55 minutes

So where is the benefit of a hub and spokes rail system?

That bus fare by the way would be $46.

Come on Ock...you know better.

Think about it...that airline fare is 21 days out and can not be had as a walkup...plus you'll have to get to the airport at least 1 hour early so the real time is closer to 2 hours/

Also, btw...the train won't go from St. Pete so let's look at Tampa instead....280 miles via I-275/75 vs. 330 miles on HSR via Orlando....so if HSR averages only 90mph (which it clearly will), it beats the bus!

[buckethead]

Or I could drive my family of 5 for about a "C" note round trip, and save all the hassels of air, bus and rail travel.


... since we're being all pragmatic and stuff.

[JeffreyS]

I loved the trains in Europe. I had a rail pass went from country to country no hassle it was great never set foot on HSR. Day trips by train great, Scenic trips wonderful and Just trying to get somewhere without driving a real convenience never set foot on HSR. What we need is the most widespread interconnected system we can almost afford. It needs to have a dependable schedule but it does not have to hit warp speed or even be faster than car rail is just a better way to go.  If you can count on it and it goes where you want for a good cost most will prefer it. Driving is a bigger hassle than rail IMO.

[buckethead]

I loved the trains in Europe. I had a rail pass went from country to country no hassle it was great never set foot on HSR. Day trips by train great, Scenic trips wonderful and Just trying to get somewhere without driving a real convenience never set foot on HSR. What we need is the most widespread interconnected system we can almost afford. It needs to have a dependable schedule but it does not have to hit warp speed or even be faster than car rail is just a better way to go.  If you can count on it and it goes where you want for a good cost most will prefer it. Driving is a bigger hassle than rail IMO.

DING!

[Ocklawaha]

We NEED HSR!

LOOK AT EUROPE!

YES! But not like this, you don't run a successful railroad with a hub and spokes system. This isn't that hard (except for people weaned on petrol), look at the map and follow the traditional travel patterns.

When the Great Depression struck, the railroads were about to close the lid on two cross state connections from Tampa to Miami. One via Ft. Myers, and the other via Palmdale, La Belle. Both projects got canceled. Aside from this, the railroad map of Florida circa 1950-70 speaks to how to connect the dots. Tampa to Miami via Orlando and Melbourne is a farce.

OCKLAWAHA

[tufsu1]

Or I could drive my family of 5 for about a "C" note round trip, and save all the hassels of air, bus and rail travel.

not really...the average cost of driving is about $0.50 per mile...so that would be roughly $280....but obviously still cheaper than other modes if all 5 people are travelling.

[Ocklawaha]

The fare?

Glad you asked:
Tampa-Miami     HSR $97    AIRLINE $76    AIRLINE IS -21.6% CHEAPER and takes only 55 minutes

So where is the benefit of a hub and spokes rail system?

That bus fare by the way would be $46.

Come on Ock...you know better.

Think about it...that airline fare is 21 days out and can not be had as a walk up...plus you'll have to get to the airport at least 1 hour early so the real time is closer to 2 hours/

Also, btw...the train won't go from St. Pete so let's look at Tampa instead....280 miles via I-275/75 vs. 330 miles on HSR via Orlando....so if HSR averages only 90mph (which it clearly will), it beats the bus!

It might IF it averages 90+, but with the stations close, and dwell time at least at Mickey, Orlando and Melbourne, a two year old on a fast trike could beat it (figuratively speaking).

No matter what you have invested in this plan TUFSU1 if HSR is anywhere near the end to end time frame of travel that is half or less the cost, it isn't going to carry a soul. Worse still, no where near the numbers it will need to repay several billion dollars with the "imagined profit". You know better too TUFSU1, THERE WILL BE NO PROFIT. From the moment I picked the HSR plan up until I laid it down, I was convulsed with laughter. Someday I intend reading it.

You talk about having to go all the way to the airport to catch the plane, which BTW DOES offer walk up for about twice the price of your super train and 1/4 the travel time, the train is leaving from the "PLANE STATION" too! Maybe I pissed you off or insulted your hard work, but to put this in diplomatic Ocklawaha terms, this whole project is doomed to the junk heap of transportation history. If your insulted just remember I don't care to belong to a club that accepts people like me as members.

Buckethead and Faye are running in circles and waving their hands saying "The Messiah Train has come..." Nobody on this forum would argue that I'm the most rail centric nut in this basket, which is why I'm very critical, one misstep and our dreams DIE. THIS IS A HUGE MISSTEP. We need to improve Amtrak into a state network of medium speed corridors and build the ridership with dependable frequent trains. Step two is improve track speeds, stations and continue to add frequency's. Step three, when the routes are identified as heavily traveled, then, like California, we convert to exclusive HSR... Slow and steady beats stars in our eye's blind. A child of five would understand this. PLEASE send someone to fetch a child of five.

OCKLAWAHA

[Dog Walker]

Or I could drive my family of 5 for about a "C" note round trip, and save all the hassels of air, bus and rail travel.

not really...the average cost of driving is about $0.50 per mile...so that would be roughly $280....but obviously still cheaper than other modes if all 5 people are travelling.

seriously? 6 miles a gallon, tufsu?

What silliness are you going to cite in order to prove a point not worth proving?

Stephen, He is talking about the total costs of running a car not just the fuel.  Purchase, repairs/maintainence, depreciation, insurance, etc.

[buckethead]

I think you might have mistaken my sarcasm for sincerity, Ock.

[buckethead]

Or I could drive my family of 5 for about a "C" note round trip, and save all the hassels of air, bus and rail travel.

not really...the average cost of driving is about $0.50 per mile...so that would be roughly $280....but obviously still cheaper than other modes if all 5 people are travelling.

seriously? 6 miles a gallon, tufsu?

What silliness are you going to cite in order to prove a point not worth proving?

Stephen, He is talking about the total costs of running a car not just the fuel.  Purchase, repairs/maintainence, depreciation, insurance, etc.

I picked that up too, but reality dictates that most of those costs are incurred despite a few trips taken by air, rail or bus. Joe six pack is not even considering such costs when deciding which means of travel is more economical. Just as considerations of subsidies and infastructure costs are not reflected in fares.

[CS Foltz]

stephendare...........I say not............don't forget the "Depreciation" too!