Skyway Merits Debated

[Ocklawaha]

Well, pip pip cheerio old chap if your not bloody well right! Why SHOULD we be any different?


OCKLAWAHA

[CS Foltz]

Well kids...........I say that any business is in business to make money, that is capitalism at its best and seems to have worked for a couple of years or two. I have no problem with any business making a buck, but I do have a problem with government operating at a deficit. The solution is not to print more money (Last I heard the projected deficit will be around 12 TRILLION DOLLARS next year) which the Federal government can and does do but the State of Florida and the City of Jacksonville can not do! So if any prudent person or entity can operate within a specific budget (as in spend no more than what is coming it) then any person or entity is not spending more than what they have coming in.............I mean to me this is common sense! I will agree there are somethings that could be labeled for the common good or to better the quality of life but that requires prioritizing! I don't know about any of you but I have reservations about any political person having my best interests at heart since most appear to be connected to the GOB Network. What I want is quite simple, government and/or any government entity should be able to do their job with a specific Budget, I have to! If they can not then there is a choice to be made.........change management or shut the doors! Granted this is a simplistic outlook but one I hold dear ......

[CS Foltz]

By the way, this applies to all government and City Agency's............business's are self monitoring! Spending or Cost's too much, business goes down the tubes! Federal government needs more capital, prints more money! City of Jacksonville needs more revenue, imposes's Fee's and the like or additional taxes! Common person has no options but to do the best they can do within their monetary income..........why should government or any Agency thereof be any different? I could point out the Healthcare issue being discussed......no one seems to know just how that will be paid for but Nebraska got theirs..........it was paid for by the Senate, that provision was in the original Bill, not only now but future increases! So I have to ask once again..........at what point do we or someone decide just when something is not cost effective? Ock has the idea to integrate Skyway into intermodal picture for all of downtown and that idea has merit, at least it is part of an overall picture. But right now in time it is basically stand alone, too short and kinda isolated. For this we get to waste $7 Million Dollars a year.......is it worth it?

[stjr]

Ok stjr....how about this "pretend" scenario....

Projections show that streetcars would move 5,000 people per day...the capital cost of setting up the system is $60 million and operations would be $4 million per year.

The Skyway (with a $30 million extension) would carry 7,000 people per day....operations would be about $8 million per year.

Which would you choose?

Oh, and btw, we all know the existing Skyway doesn't cost $14 million per year...it is $7 million in operations and another $7 million in depreciation.

Tufsu, there is a fundamental problem with your scenario in my opinion.  Streetcars would move multiple times the numbers of people that the $ky-high-way would.  Why?  Streetcars will run more places, more often, and be more accessible and user friendly.

Second, when you calculate the costs of the $ky-high-way, to be apples to apples, you have to include the $100 million plus already invested.

Once again ( ), as to depreciation, it reflects the "wasting away" over time of the original investment.  You can not ignore this cost. Otherwise, you would be indifferent to two investments, each having the same non-depreciation costs, but one requiring an investment twice as much as the other.  Depreciation reflects that the relative upfront investment will be "wasting away" during the life of the operating asset.

When you devise a realistic scenario based on the above, I am confident the streetcar will come out on top every time.  That's why you see dozens of streetcar systems operating or planned and only a handful of existing $ky-high-ways (mostly built on the same premise of ours, to get pork barrel Federal dollars) with next to none (are there really any?) being planned.

[stjr]

So rather then improve our lot, we quit to end a $14,000,000 perceived deficit? Then we build a streetcar system and it runs a $15,000,000 "deficit", what have we gained?

Ock, what you gain is a significantly, by multiple times in my opinion, more useful service to the community.  If streetcars carry multiple volumes of the current, or even any potential, ridership of the $ky-high-way, and do so at far less per rider, then its time to make the switch (see my extended example at Post #63 above) .  Every day until then is taxpayer money be wasted.

[stjr]

......I did not say anything about government being a business for profit! By my standards at best it should be a BREAK EVEN business!

If one stands back at 10,000 feet, you would see that ALL public projects BREAK EVEN.  Why?  Because, between the direct revenue (tolls, fees, fares, etc.) of the projects AND taxpayer dollars, all costs get paid for.  The issue is how to determine and implement the most efficient projects and how to allocate the costs between the direct and indirect beneficiaries of the projects.

Many projects offer uneven benefits to various segments of the community (more police in high crime areas, more mass transit serving the urban core, more parks in the suburbs, etc.).  However, government plays a role not unlike the risk sharing performed by insurance companies.  The costs to achieve the benefits of a myriad of government projects are spread out over the entire community.

Unlike insurance companies, government doesn't make much, if any, effort to directly identify and charge each of its  beneficiaries.  This is, arguably, where government fails and, thus, distorts the marketplace.  If every beneficiary was charged proportionately, it is clear that urban sprawl would be unaffordable motivating us to live in the most compact cities possible and that mass transit would be far more cost efficient than automobiles and roads.

Failure to take into account the full societal costs of public projects versus their benefits is the cause of so many issues we face today.

In the issue at hand, if beneficiaries were properly charged their full costs (NO government subsidies) on the three competing alternatives of driving a car on a modern road, using the $ky-high-way, or taking streetcars, all for the same travel path and distance, and each wished to do so with the greatest efficiencies, the streetcar wins.  When viewed this way, in a perfect world, the auto and $ky-high-way modes of transit would disappear.

[tufsu1]

I have no problem with any business making a buck, but I do have a problem with government operating at a deficit. The solution is not to print more money (Last I heard the projected deficit will be around 12 TRILLION DOLLARS next year) which the Federal government can and does do but the State of Florida and the City of Jacksonville can not do!

FYI....the $12 trillion is the national debt....not the annual deficit!

[tufsu1]

Tufsu, there is a fundamental problem with your scenario in my opinion.  Streetcars would move multiple times the numbers of people that the $ky-high-way would.  Why?  Streetcars will run more places, more often, and be more accessible and user friendly.

That fully depends on how extensive the system is, how often the streetcars run, and how much it costs to ride.  For example, the TECO line in Tampa is about 3 miles long, runs on 15-20 minute headways, and costs about $3 per ride....and sguess what....their overall ridership averages about 1,000 a day...less than the Skyway!

[CS Foltz]

Well if the Chinese continue to buy vast amounts of our T Bills I can see just what will take place and I hate rice! Call it what you will..........Debt/Deficit.....either way we still operate in the red rather than the black and this bothers me over the long term! At the rate we are going.....that 12 Trillion Figure will be a deficit. Government whether it is Federal or State or Local can not continue to spend money that it does not have......I can not print money so I had better stay within my budget............you can say all you want about the public good and quality of life but there is no free lunch.......so I ask once again .....at what point do you pull the plug on the Skyway? At what point is any project stopped because of cost or management issue's? This would bring the new "Courthouse" to mind also.......voters approved $190 Million Dollars.......projected cost(I still say final figure will be more)$350 Million! I did not ask to spend that much......Annex and old Courthouse could have been renovated and upgraded at far less than that and would have just as good but Judge Moran and Johnny worked a deal out........now WE will get to pay for it! So by my standards, 7 cents, 7 dollars or 7 Million, government needs to be accountable......so once again I ask.........what does it take to shut down the $kyway?

[tufsu1]

fine CS...but let's look at history....check out the Federal tax rates when Reagan was in office vs. what we now have....or even compare the Clinton years (remember there was no deficit in 1999) to now.....you'll see they are far lower...so I ask you again....would you favor tax increases to help balance our books?

[CS Foltz]

I would at least think about it if it could be proven beyond doubt that the $kyway is the most efficient use of our tax dollars! At this point ......I do not believe so! I am more concerned about getting the most for our tax dollars before we even consider raising tax rate's!

fine CS...but let's look at history....check out the Federal tax rates when Reagan was in office vs. what we now have....or even compare the Clinton years (remember there was no deficit in 1999) to now.....you'll see they are far lower...so I ask you again....would you favor tax increases to help balance our books?

More efficient use of our tax dollars first..........cut the waste, cut the frills and go lean! That's my take on the situation! Yes , I do remember when we had no deficit in 1999! What took place to change that scenario? When a stupid wrench cost's 6K something is not right! That also applies to government across the board!

[mtraininjax]

Trying to predict what the Feds will do is like predicting the weather. Stay local and figure out how the local peeps will react and move forward, namely JTA. China? Worry more about what cost figures Arrington will come up with since he is fond of throwing around numbers.

[CS Foltz]

mtraininjax..........your probably right! Local stuff first then worry about the big picture......but concerned about the long range picture which is not very bright for the grandkids and that coming generation!

[mtraininjax]

CS - China, India, and Africa will tell the rest of the world to go screw themselves. They will point to the rest of the world's growth of industrial revolution, and tell them to go jump off a cliff, for all they care. I hope they learn from our piss poor lessons of providing healthcare, a retirement plan, and unemployment to all who are breathing. We are the land of the home and the free, for sure. Teach our future generations that Capitalism was killed by the Democrats.

[CS Foltz]

mtraininjax............I am begining to believe that the two Party system sucks the big one! It may be time for a viable third or fourth party option to appear! Yeah.........I know all about multipule party systems and coalitions but something needs to take place! This picture of either or just does not get the point across!