Skyway Merits Debated

[buckethead]

Oh dear Lord!

[Bostech]

JeffreyS.......I did not say anything about government being a business for profit! By my standards at best it should be a BREAK EVEN business! Transit should be in the same category I would think! You and I have to operate within our Budgets or we will have trouble and I see no reason why everything else should be exempt! Any business must make a profit to keep their doors open and did not say anything about the $kyway making money............at best it should be a break even prospect and it is not doing so! So I would ask you the same thing that I asked tufsu1..........at what point do you cut your losses?

So you are saying military and NASA should bring some money back...a lot of money.

[CS Foltz]

Military should be at least a break even situation but that won't happen with the current system in place! I mean why should the military pay 6 Grand for a lousy cresent wrench? Milspec's not with standing it just is not right! GAO should be able to reign that in but they have not to this point. Spinoff's from NASA have taken place for years............your probably working off of one right now..........not to mention all of the electronic spinoff's that have entered into the civilian market.......medicene's , equipment and the like! At least with NASA we have gotten something for the dollars spent. I still say "Any government entity should be able to work within a Budget" you and I have too so why not them?

[tufsu1]

but how would the military "at least break even"...other than taxes, what revenue is generated?

[CS Foltz]

tufsu1..........I am refering to the ability to operate within a Budget. Military Defense is something I do know something about having spent 9 yrs, 6 mnths and 28 days in the USCG. Part of what I had control over was called the SURF system (Simplified Unit Replenishment Fund) Everything for the unit came from that Fund and units tried to stay within the limits of the fund. At the end of the quarter, you double checked your figures and if you had money left, then standard practice was to buy till you closed within $1.00 of Fund amount! I did that many times over the years because that was standard practice...........if you did not , then Command would cut your money short for the next quarter by whatever you had managed to save! So even if you tried to save money, the odds were against you. I would like to see that changed and GAO actually do their stinking job! The days of $6k cresent wrenches should be over! The military does their job's with with Milspec's issue's and I have no problem with the military using and getting the best we can give them.......give them an adequate Fund and turn them loose! All units will make do with what Funding they are given since they normally do so anyway!

[Ocklawaha]

Quote from: tufsu1 on Yesterday at 10:00 PM

Quote from: stjr on Yesterday at 06:51:34 PM
Tufsu, there is a fundamental problem with your scenario in my opinion.  Streetcars would move multiple times the numbers of people that the $ky-high-way would.  Why?  Streetcars will run more places, more often, and be more accessible and user friendly.

That fully depends on how extensive the system is, how often the streetcars run, and how much it costs to ride.  For example, the TECO line in Tampa is about 3 miles long, runs on 15-20 minute headways, and costs about $3 per ride....and sguess what....their overall ridership averages about 1,000 a day...less than the Skyway!

Just look at expansion, certainly the Streetcars can go much farther and almost as fast as the monorail (55 mph) which we never get above 30 mph. So to get out into the burbs, streetcar is the only real and decent answer. The equipment, modern or vintage should be ordered with the ability to entrain which allows one operator to handle 2-8 car trains. (see photos) Even so as the system expands we have the math that none can escape, LABOR. 75% of all transit cost is labor, and only 25% of transit funding comes from the farebox.
Bottom line? Streetcars or Monorail is going to cost us something.

Using the costs as a starting point, the Skyway has the single advantage of being in place, and needing only minor extensions to get it to the original design terminals. The whole thing, maxed out would probably never exceed 8-9 miles (4+ today). Without the labor on the super close headways that SHOULD BE OPERATING (to hell with costs - to jump start it) the Skyway today could handle many hundreds more times the passengers it handles today.

It gets more dicey as one approaches suburbia. On those VERY DENSE downtown (and perhaps even Bay Meadows, Deerwood, Town Center type areas) the Skyway could shine as an up and above fluid mover of people. Gee, maybe that's why it's called a people mover? Even though we have certainly upgraded that for future use.

Commuter rail is by far and away the best and easiest to implement for the distant burbs, and Amtrak corridor service in a dense State like Florida, is a transportation planners dream.

This leaves my long awaited streetcar project as the key bridge between small feeder lines, IE: buses, and suburban-urban connectors on the streetcar. But with the Skyway in place, the streetcars and Skyway could easily layer each other, each with their own unique street operations and each with a different purpose.




BRT, is simply an excuse, Light Rail for Under Achievers, but it too would have a grand place in any plan I drew up. It would be layered so that a passenger looking at several transfers would have seamless - across the platform transfer stations. Sample transfer trips:

One could come from St. Augustine to San Marco on the train, change to Skyway to City Hall, leave downtown from the Landing on a Streetcar, transferring to BRT at Kent Campus to aunt Sue's and making a last transfer from BRT on Blanding to City bus to Aunt Sue in Argyle.

Come in on the early shuttle train from Gainesville or Tallahassee on Amtrak, ride the Skyway to metropolitan Stadium parking garages for the big game (which we win of course). Next leave the stadium on the streetcar to the Landing to party, then get poured onto the Beaches BRT to HER hotel room. Sucre - Sal !

You can do this in any world city, it's easier then what we have today. It's all about choice and mix and could easily be an extension of Blaylock's crosstown bus idea. Oh and I didn't even touch those folks that would be coming in from Ponte Vedra, Nocatee and WGV on the "Executive Business Express Coach," (See photo)

but how would the military "at least break even"...other than taxes, what revenue is generated?

Watch a rerun of Kelly's Hero's and repeat the question... I HAVE dined off of china that had the initials A.H. on it! So maybe a return is possible? How much you want to give us for Nagasaki? Dresden? Hanoi? Bagdad? Such a deal!

OCKLAWAHA

[CS Foltz]

United States Military operates with a specific Budget number in mind......as in X amount of dollars is requested up the chain of command, equipment is requested on a per unit basis! Congress controls how many ships are replaced, aircraft are bought in bloc's, same for tanks and all of the other mechanized things that make up the various branches of Service. Congress controls all of that.....not the Armed Services! Most, if not all, units will operate within the budget constraints passed down the line, I just wish there was some way for the $kyway to do the same and if they can't ...............shut the doors!

[tufsu1]

the problem with that theory CS is that the US Military (and the rest of the Fed) operates with a budget that hasn't added up for a decade...state and local govt. can't do that.

[Ocklawaha]

What the both of you probably don't know is that we have two Congressional representatives that are vigorous supporters of the $kyway. The problem isn't at the national level, it's our own JTA and MPO that has pulled the plug on every proposed betterment. These are all improvements that the current administration has virtually garuntied will be forthcoming just for the asking. The criteria for the best shot at funds? A fixed rail system already in operation and in need of improvement or expansion... Well shuck my corncobs Jesup - THAT WOULD BE US!

OCKLAWAHA

[stjr]

What the both of you probably don't know is that we have two Congressional representatives that are vigorous supporters of the $kyway.

Having our Congressional reps "support" is, at best, a conditioned response to their self-perceived mission in life of raping the Federal treasury for any and all dollars to bring back to their home districts.  They could care less whether they were used for this project or that or whether such projects make any sense or represent the best use of taxpayer dollars.  Congressional budgeting today is nothing but a free-for-all grab for dollars and the theme is "Pork, Baby, Pork" if nothing else will work.  So, I wouldn't take this "support" as much of an endorsement.

Also, consider that Rep. Brown was instrumental in the initial funding and thus may have some "pride of ownership" in keeping the system running so as not to look overly foolish for supporting it originally.  It's not politically acceptable to admit a gross mistake.

Alaska had their Congressional rep's "support" for their "bridge to nowhere" and we know how famously ridiculous that was.  Just prostituting themselves for their districts so they can serve another term.

[CS Foltz]

Ock...........your right! I had forgotten that there had to have been some kind of Congressional support along the way to even have received Federal Funds to begin with! So based on that........chances of pulling the plug are going to be slim to non-existant!

[stjr]

Noticed Ron Littlepage today picked up on the $4 million a year TRANSFERRED from the BUS system to SUBSIDIZE the $ky-high-way! (Even though taxpayers where promised this would never happen.)  He echoed my immediate thought about how many bus shelters that could have paid for and that we should again consider shutting down the Skyway for good.

And, after TWO years, still no update on JTA's web site of their financials.  I guess with numbers like those cited by Littlepage, JTA is ashamed to come clean.  What a surprise!

http://www.jtafla.com/AboutJTA/showPage.aspx?Sel=32

I'm counting on Tufsu to get his buddies there to address this but have heard nothing.  How about it Tufsu?  They should be embarrassed playing this silly game of hide and seek.  But, then again, it seems to be part of JTA's culture.

Riderless Express rolls on; city cutbacks derailed

Submitted by Ron Littlepage on August 21, 2010 - 11:40pm Ron Littlepage's Blog

Spinning around the news dial … click.

Click.
All kinds of interesting facts pop up during the City Council’s Finance Committee budget hearings.
For example, last week the committee examined the Jacksonville Transportation Authority’s budget, including the funding for the Riderless Skyway Express.
Of the $5.3 million that will be spent on Skyway operations in the next fiscal year, only $400,000 will come from passenger fares.
Isn’t it time to put this mistake out of its misery?

Click.
A big chunk of the subsidy for the Skyway comes from $4 million transferred from the budget for bus operations.
That’s particularly galling for those who remember that when the life of the local option gasoline tax was extended, promises were made that none of the money would go to the Skyway.
That’s exactly where some of it is going.

Click.
Hmmm. I wonder how many bus stop shelters could be built with that $4 million?

http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/400564/ron-littlepage/2010-08-21/riderless-express-rolls-city-cutbacks-derailed

[spuwho]

Hey stjr,

I too saw the Littlepage editorial today and came here to see if a new topic had started on it.

While I am a fan of the Skyway (as long as it has a future) I am not liking what I am reading here.  I knew there was some subsidy going on, but this scrap of information is way over the top.

JTA needs significant reform NOW. They need full disclosure NOW.

When I read this my impression is that JTA chases federal bus money because it is easy to get and use to subsidize other activities with little or no oversight.  They are currently getting burned on the TBJP reimbursements issue, no finances available online, 2 tax increase requests without any public justification.

I don't want to start a rumble but I think its time to make this a mayoral election issue. Up front and center.

My first thought is how much of the Fed BRT money will actually go to BRT?

[CS Foltz]

Well since they have no posted any operational figures for the past two years........me thinks they know better! Past due for sure! Either way we, the taxpayers, get to subsidize JTA and yet we can not get any figures to show just how inept, non-professional  they are................or is it just a smoke screen while they siphon off funds for bonuses?

[stjr]

In today's T-U, Mr. Blaylock offers the "official" justification (excuse?) for maintaining the Skyway.  Now, it's Downtown's fault that the system is a failure.  That, and "PRIVATE" garages.  He doesn't mention the PUBLIC garages built by all those "downtown" mayors he cites.  And, after 20 years, the Skyway is still way "ahead of its time" and its "too early to give up" on it.  "As the economy improves" all will be well.  Forget, that before the recession, we had one of the best economies on record.  The next wave will be the "big" one.

The "$90 million" threat to the taxpayers amounts to extortion and deserves a thorough and full independent investigative review as to its legal AND political correctness.  How much money must we lose and how long must be wait, if this were even likely to be enforced, for such provision to lapse?  Surely, it does not go on forever.

The biggest issue here is there is no black/white measure or time frame for the Skyway to "put up or shut up".  It just languishes indefinitely and Blaylock's words promise more of the same.  A half-a** and stretched justification for the Skyway from the "experts".  If this is the best that can be offered, I doubt few will be persuaded to change opinions.

I am sure Blaylock is singing music to the ears and made-up minds of MJ's Skyway adherents but these lines will likely ring hollow in the ears of most.

Guest column: Jacksonville's Skyway a long-term investment
Source URL: http://jacksonville.com/opinion/letters-readers/2010-08-27/story/guest-column-skyway-long-term-investment

At the Jacksonville Transportation Authority's budget presentation to City Council's Finance Committee a week ago, the Skyway's operating cost was discussed.

The big alluring question: Why not shut the Skyway down?

It's a legitimate question. After 21 years in operation, the Skyway continues to have lower-than-expected ridership and a higher-than-desired operating deficit.

In fact today, the Skyway averages about 2,000 riders a day.

So, why is the transportation authority continuing to support such an operation?

The answer: Careful analysis shows that it is in the best long-term interests of the community to do so.

The basis of this operating decision stems all the way back to 1971, when the city first proposed a "people mover" system with the Florida Department of Transportation as a solution to increasingly congested bridge crossings and intersections, plus increased parking issues in the downtown core (including the Southbank).

This was a time when the city had a fairly vibrant downtown, with several department stores, restaurants and major employers.

A decade later, Jacksonville was one of the three cities (Miami and Detroit were the others) to win federal funds to build a demonstration project to see if "people mover" systems could help downtown centers.

Early projections by city planning had 100,000 people working in the downtown area by 1990. Looking at today's numbers, we see the projections did not hold up. Current downtown vacancies are 26 percent with approximately 51,000 employees.

Additionally, the creation of more private surface lots and parking garages impacted the Skyway's strategy of connecting the urban core with long-term parking located away from downtown's core.

JTA still believes that the Skyway, ahead of its time, is and should be integral to Jacksonville's long-term transportation strategy and vital to helping foster economic opportunity in downtown.

For us to be successful, we need an active, prosperous downtown.

A succession of mayors, beginning with Hans Tanzler in the 1960s, embraced the downtown development as we have, and JTA is not prepared to turn its back on downtown Jacksonville.

Downtown is still the most dense and largest employment center in the region and is the site where sustainable development will work best.

Furthermore, the cost of shutting down the Skyway, dismantling the super structure and returning at least $90 million in federal funding used to build the system far outweigh the costs of operating the system, which allows us to keep our long-term options available.

We know the system functions as it was intended when we get big crowds downtown. During Super Bowl XXXIX in 2005, over 200,000 patrons utilized the system.

For now, JTA has been continuing improvements to maximize intended use of the Skyway. We are making more bus and trolley connections at the Skyway stations, saving valuable time and miles, which are put back into the system outside of downtown.

Additionally, as the economy improves we have a series of public/private opportunities for potential developers to consider in locating their venues along the Skyway route.

It would be a travesty to close the Skyway now. Downtown Jacksonville will come back, and the Skyway will be there to tie it all together.

Those with long memories will recall similar criticism when we built the Dames Point bridge and Butler Boulevard.

While not all long-range decisions turn out as timely as planned, we believe it is too early to give up on the important strategies that the Skyway was built to serve.

Michael Blaylock is executive director/CEO of the Jacksonville Transportation Authority.