New transportation center planned for downtown Jacksonville

[CS Foltz]

$kyway was predicted to cost $78 Million and the actual cost was $250 Million. Ridership prediction was supposed to exceed 50,000 a day.....Average weekday ridership running around 1,700 per day and total cost per year about $14 Million.......those numbers just are not in our favor!

[stjr]

Well tufsu1......leme paint a picture for ya.....Prime Osburn Center! Railroad Square Inc bought it from the railroads then sold it to the Jacksonville Convention Center Joint Venture for $3.9 Million. The Venture Group then sold to the City for $5.8 Million (Note profit of $1.5 Million) That's money the City could have saved dealing directly with the railroads. But the real kicker was that the Venture Group was handed the contract to convert the terminal into a Convention Center without public bids as required by Law! The project was over Budget, late and had leakage problems that did damage to the insides! All of this information is out there .....you just have to find it......GOB Network is hard at work lining their pockets with my money and I am getting tired of it!

CS, you are right.  The convention center deal was a big time GOB slugfest.  The only reason it was more obvious than usual was that the GOB's had a civil war.  Half were in on the Prime Osborn site, and half in on the Sears Block (now the Omni and Wachovia block).  I thought Ortegans would never speak to each other again after that fight (maybe they didn't, I don't live there).  It was definitely welfare for the rich and a scam for the taxpayers.  Who had the most political pull was the determining factor, not which site was best.  If only the T-U would digitize and make publicly available all the newspapers of the day!

1. I don't really care what happened 20 years ago....we need to respect history (otherwise doomed to repeat it), but it has nothing to do with the current administration or my tax dollars today.

Everything done in Jax is a direct legacy of our past "deals".  We can't and shouldn't ignore them.  One must know the "players" and the "baggage" they bring to the table to know "why" things in Jax get "railroaded" to the detriment of the taxpayers.

2. JTA isn't funding the transportation center....it was/is to be funded with FDOT transit money...unfortunately, project costs around he state have risen and revenues have gone down so the money isn't in the 5-year work program....the only thing that changes this is the potential for federal stimulus money through the TIGER grant program

Doesn't matter where the money comes from.  It all comes, in the end, from the Taxpayers.  JTA and FDOT are the "developers", regardless of the funding.  So, they are accountable for the design and the costs to build it.   And, before funding there is the planning.  During planning, we are told, don't worry, there is no funding.   By the time it's funded, we are usually told it's too late to change the planning.  Not interested in bureaucratic buck passing.

3. As stated above, project costs all over the state (and country) go up...this is especially true for a courthouse that had a placeholder number in the BJP even though no design work had been done.....that said, the contractor agreed to a maximum upset limit that won't have the total costs coming in at more than $350 million....I would say to you that there is 0% chance that the project would cost $700 million

There should have been 0% chance that the courthouse went over $190 million or any of the climbing "new" numbers leading up to the current $350 million.  CS is right to doubt anything we are told by public officials when most everything they tell us turns out to not just be wrong, but WAY wrong.  You want to continue to believe all these things for whatever reason, so be it, but, most of your fellow citizens are highly cynical and skeptical, and rightfully so, based on that history you so readily dismiss.  We are tired of incompetence in our local public works projects and deserve better.  Public officials need to EARN our trust the hard way - by doing the right thing for the public over and over. 

[tufsu1]

It seems to me that CS (and to a lesser degree stjr) will not be satisfied with anything that JTA or the administration does....now they're complaining about $11 million spent on the Super Bowl...really? 

I guess you're right...I mean all we got was worldwide publicity, a huge street festival, lighted bridges, a bunch of money spent in our city (which means tax revenue), new sidewalks, street lights, etc. 

As for taxpayers funding things (regardless of whether its local, state, or federal)...Florida has been so abysmal in the past at securing federal transit funds that we only get about $0.62 on every $1.00 we contribute....if we don't want our money, I'm sure there are many other states that will be more than happy to take it!

[stjr]

It seems to me that CS (and to a lesser degree stjr) will not be satisfied with anything that JTA or the administration does....now they're complaining about $11 million spent on the Super Bowl...really? 

I guess you're right...I mean all we got was worldwide publicity, a huge street festival, lighted bridges, a bunch of money spent in our city (which means tax revenue), new sidewalks, street lights, etc. 

As for taxpayers funding things (regardless of whether its local, state, or federal)...Florida has been so abysmal in the past at securing federal transit funds that we only get about $0.62 on every $1.00 we contribute....if we don't want our money, I'm sure there are many other states that will be more than happy to take it!

Tufsu, I don't recall you position in our community but you consistently side with government officials and agencies.  That's OK and I welcome your insights into their "reasoning" even if I often find them short of the mark.

But with your apparent perspective, you also seem to be blind to the viewpoints of many of your fellow taxpayer citizens who see things from an entirely different perspective.

It's not that citizens don't support most (certainly, not all!) of the projects proposed by public officials.  Heck, the BJP was actually approved by the voters.  And, it's not that we don't want as much of our federal and state dollars to be returned to our community where it makes sense to us  as citizens, not just of Jax, but of Florida and the USA.

What we do want, is, that at all times, officials in every capacity and level of government perform adequately their fiduciary responsibility to us, the taxpayers, by making informed and well reasoned decisions for the overall public good and not in the interest of their careers and special friends, manage our resources (that would usually be money and other assets of our community) efficiently and with integrity, and communicate honestly and with candor, for better or worse, as to what is or, likely, will happen to the projects and issues we entrust them to take leadership in.

What CS is demonstrating are the instances that are way too frequent in which our public officials incompetently or deliberately deliver projects and/or mislead the public on.  Being upset with that behavior doesn't mean being against the project, it means just what we are saying, that public officials are no longer credible on such projects or ones like them.

You may wish to blindly trust those who have repeatedly let you down, but many others, including us, are not.

For what it is worth, I do support many of the projects initiated by the City, JTA, and FDOT.  Where they repeatedly lose me (and others) is in their usually very poor execution of those projects compounded by their failure to take responsibility and to learn from those failures.  Do this in the corporate world and you will be out of business.  Do this in government, and there are seldom any consequences.  We want such people held accountable.

Both CS, I, and other MJ posters have provided factual support and countless examples of public project failures.  It's time to stop accepting at face value and/or making excuses for why things are the way they are and work together to make them what they should be - the very best!  Only then, will our community advance to the highest levels we all wish to see.

[tufsu1]

that is fair

[stjr]

that is fair

Great, Tufsu.  You appear to be on the "inside" of some of these projects.  Your assistance in holding them to the highest of standards on behalf of the Taxpayers is appreciated. 

[mtraininjax]

I don't care if the add on to the skyway or replace the red and yellow stripes, as long as it creates jobs and puts people to work, I'm all for it.

[CS Foltz]

Well tufsu1 as "stjr" pointed out much more succinctly and concisely than I did...........I am all for enhancing what we have here in Jacksonville! I would like to have transparent, ethical and accountable government! The waste that I have seen taking place drives me up the wall since all that comes out is ignored or just flat sluffed off! I am not against a New Transportation Center, but against the place where it is being discussed. It would seem to me that using Eminent Domain to take over 3 blocks is not in the best interest's of the public. The planning,at this point, is suspect and should not be set in stone,especially with no funding! Whether it is FDOT or Federal Funds you and I are paying for it and if FDOT is not pursing their fair share then they are lacking .....whether it is Jacksonville or Tallahassee not doing what should be done, I am not sure but someone should be accountable and I see no one stepping up to the line but lots of grandiose plans. Long range vision must be a part of anyones perception of what could be and whether or not it is cost effective.....not to mention Ethical!

[Ocklawaha]

Damn! Leave you guys alone for a week and all hell breaks loose! Gimme a few hours to digest this and release a fusillade into this scheme. To put the proper slant on it, I'm not only with Lakelander on this, but to move forward on the current "plan" has got more Stupid-Per-Square-Inch (SPSI) then the blooming "explosion-in-a-pillar-factory," going up on Monroe. Greyhound? 3 blocks north?
Amtrak? Someday? In a flood plain? BRT? WHAT BRT? Convention Center? OH GOD! BOHICA EVERYONE!

OCKLAWAHA

[urbanlibertarian]

I'm not convinced that this city needs a convention center at all, period.  Just close it and use the space for the transportation hub and put a new convention center on the wish list or let private enterprise fill the vacuum (if there is one).

[thelakelander]

If this city wants to be recognized as a major business center and first tier community, a quality convention center is a must.  However, a poor facility next door to Greyhound and a JTA bus depot is just like not having one.

[CS Foltz]

lake .....I agree! I too am not sure about consolidating everything into one basket and using the shotgun approach probably is not the best choice. Convention Center (Prime Osburn) all ready has both tracks and positioning so it may be cost effective to return it to Rail Glory! Both local and Amtrak service. There are 22 acres connected with the building and don't see much being discussed regarding useage? $kyway is across the street and there is the connection to across the River(with a cost of $20k per rider average, kill it or continue to spend $14 Million a year to subsidize and use the hell out of it) Those 22 acres connected to the Prime Osburn facility could and should be utilized for a real Convention Center. Build up, spiral w/glass  and a center core access and poof! A real Convention Center state of the Art and a transportation hub with real prospects along with routes in and out of Jacksonville..........add local LRT and downtown would be so hot it could go into spontaneous combustion. But that's just my take! Plenty of property in the region available for developement and if bought soon real cheap!

[thelakelander]

Those 22 acres would be better used for transportation purposes, as they originally were.  If we expand the convention center on that parking lot, we still never address several problems:

1. An attached convention center hotel. (can DT support another Hyatt sized facility without subsidizing it?  Most likely not)

2. Complementing entertainment/dining/retail uses.  An exhibition hall is just a box.  However, a successful convention center needs to be within walking distance of restaurants, retail and dining.  The Prime Osborn is a mile a way from these facilities and building a bus depot around it, eliminates the opportunity from happening.  In addition, since DT already has these businesses a mile a way (ex. Landing, Bay Street, Florida Theater, etc.), why subsidize additional new development to directly compete against what is already in place?

3. Bus Depot as neighbor.  If you we're in charge of booking a business convention what type of facility would you choose? 

A. One within walking distance of several hotels and one of the South's major entertainment strips (ex. Nashville)?

Nashville convention center



B. A riverfront center with a hotel and water taxi ride away from one of the most popular historic districts in the country (ex. Savannah)?

Savannah convention center


Directly across the river from the Savannah center



C. One in the heart of downtown, immediately surrounded by several hotels, retaurants and entertainment uses (ex. Louisville)?

Across the street from Louisville's convention center



D. One a mile a way from the DT core and complementing uses (restaurants, retail, hotel) but across the street from the city bus depot (think Rosa Parks/FCCJ station) and Greyhound (Jacksonville)?



My guess is that most will choose another facility.

[Ocklawaha]

Lake and Ock, I presume that street cars also require a maintenance and operations facility and yard. How much land would be needed to support dozens, and, maybe someday, hundreds of streetcars?  Could part of the Prime Osborn site fill this role?  If not, how about the current JTA HQ's site?  Where else might we look? 

This is something you really wouldn't want in the middle of an attractive intermodal station. Keeping in mind streetcars are a type of LIGHT RAIL TRAIN, with TRAIN being key, a maintenance yard can get ugly fast. The old car barns covered an area from the FEC tracks south through the Skyway car barn to the street, and from Riverside Avenue, west, to the next street. The track work was incredible and the overhead single wire's, become a maze of electric wonders. A freebie from the current Skyway facility, the benefit is BOTH SYSTEMS, streetcar and SKYWAY will likely run on the same 600-700 volt DC system. Current Skyway third rail is 700 volt DC and 99% of streetcars are 600 +/- a few, VERY - VERY - SIMPLE mechanics involved, minus the modern digital "extras". Anybody that can add a car to our Skyway, could wind the motors on our streetcar system.

The old carbarn site is still the best, and most "OUT-of-SIGHT," location we could pick.

OCKLAWAHA

[fsujax]

There is plenty of room near the Skyway maintenance facility that can be used for a streetcar maintenance facility.