New transportation center planned for downtown Jacksonville

[stjr]

To be fair Lake, its more like a 2 block walk...

...Finally, not that I think the JRTC layout is great....but how far do most of us walk in a large airport.....I mean eah concourse in Atlanta is like 1/3 mile long end to end!

Tufsu, its clearly three blocks from their drawings.  I even specified the walk in my post.  You didn't.  Tell me how 1 1/2 + 1 + 1/2 = 2?  You are doing the JTA math and that's why everything they do disappoints.

Also, long walks in airports today are usually supported with moving sidewalks.  Do we have anything like that here?  The other difference is most people only walk through airports occasionally, not part of a twice a day routine some 250 days a year.  And, airport users don't have other options whereas commuters do.  Make it too hard and you will "drive"  them away.

JTA and you think too much like engineers, treating people as robotic machines, not humans that will always be looking for the path of least resistance.  This is why the $ky-high-way is a failure and the BRT will lack success.  Add this "intermodal" complex to the list if it proceeds as currently planned.

[thelakelander]

I'd toss out the whole airport issue.  Its a different animal because it does not cater to regular local commuters transferring to different modes and is not located in a downtown urban environment.

Also, from the rendering the Anaheim transportation center looked like it included transit oriented development.  Our sprawling plan is strictly a transportation center.

[Steve]

Finally, not that I think the JRTC layout is great....but how far do most of us walk in a large airport.....I mean eah concourse in Atlanta is like 1/3 mile long end to end!

Which is great, since most people travel by air every day, and everyone seems to enjoy it

[tufsu1]

Believe me...I agree that the complex is too sprawled out....but to be fair, the mid-block between Forsyth and Adams is just that....and the distance from bay to Forsyth is small.

Furthermore, the main transfers will be from JTA bus to Skyway (1 small block) and rail to skyway (2-3 blocks)....and since we're not likely to move the skyway or the rail lines, we'll never shorten that distance.

A better example...how many fo you have been to Port Authority terminal in NYC...it covers several city blocks and often requires a 3 block walk (length equivelant) from bus to subway.

[thelakelander]

Except if you kick the convention center out.  Then all of the bus connections could be built between the skyway and the rail platforms and the longest stretch between modes would be a three block walk between the skyway and Amtrak/commuter rail.  Also, the more compact set up would allow for retail to have a higher survival rate. 

Putting retail space along Johnson, instead of Forsyth or Bay (high traffic streets) it highly questionable since no one knows what, if anything, will happen to the three blocks of dirt on the east side of Johnson.  Its sort of like opening a store up to the back or side alley instead of the main street where everyone walks and drives.

[tufsu1]

Yes, Lake....the overall layout is weak and could be much better....but too many folks are focusing on the distance as THE problem....and that's just not the case!

[thelakelander]

The distance (primarily between commuter rail/streetcar & bus/skyway) could negatively impact regular transfers between these modes.  Especially if the arrival/departure times aren't properly coordinated.  It really is a transit center next door to the old train terminal with a rail platform a couple of blocks away.  Because of the layout, I can see a closer relationship developing between the streetcar, commuter rail and Amtrak.  Outside of FCCJ and Hemming Plaza, there would really be no need to transfer from commuter rail to the skyway, if the streetcar is developed. 

[jaxlore]

sent my thoughts on it to this guy here, of course didnt hear anything back:

mikeb@jtaonthemove.com

is he still jta director?

[stjr]

I would guess the most likely connections would be between commuter rail and buses and/or street cars.

The $ky-high-way doesn't appear to have the capacity to keep up with rail, is too far for most from the rails, probably can't run the headway frequency that street cars and buses can, and, most importantly, doesn't have the flexibility to take people close enough to where they may wish to travel.  That's why the $ky-high-way has never worked and never will.  It needs to be removed as a link to any greater transit system as it will always be the "weakest link" bringing the entire system down to a level that users won't tolerate.  It's time to substitute street cars for the $ky-high-way.  What's bothersome is not seeing any provision for street cars in the posted concepts.  Who is thinking ahead here?

[fsujax]

I think all these concepts were drawn up way before JTA even started looking at streetcars. Don't be so worried because you dont seem them in the rendering.

[stjr]

Don't be so worried because you dont seem them in the rendering.

Based on their history, we should always be worried about what JTA is up to! - and, NOT up to! 

[stjr]

Lake and Ock, I presume that street cars also require a maintenance and operations facility and yard. How much land would be needed to support dozens, and, maybe someday, hundreds of streetcars?  Could part of the Prime Osborn site fill this role?  If not, how about the current JTA HQ's site?  Where else might we look? 

[fsujax]

The streetcar maintenance facility could be built adjacent to the current Skyway maintenance facility. Plenty of room there.

[Steve]

Outside of FCCJ and Hemming Plaza, there would really be no need to transfer from commuter rail to the skyway, if the streetcar is developed. 

Don't forget about the Southbank.  The skyway will be the primary connection over there.

[thelakelander]

You're right.  I forgot about that one, although a commuter rail station is also proposed for the Southbank, near the intersection of San Marco Blvd & Prudential Dr.