Ruins of Jacksonville: The Ambassador Hotel

[GENTRY]

What are your top 5/6 candidates for renovation?

To make it simple for those who have been trying to challenge my knowledge of the inner workings of downtown, here is a basic list. The following buildings would require the least amount of retrofitting hence keeping the cost to tax payers to a minimum or at least palatable.

1. The "Trio" at Laura and Forsyth, A) Brisbee building B) Florida Life Ins. building C) Florida National Bank building "marble bank"

2. Old Barnett National Bank

3. Atlantic National Bank Annex

4. Jones Bros. Furniture Building

5. Florida Baptist Convention Building

Those are my choice for seven of the more historical buildings that can be used for commercial or residential purposes with the least cost to the tax payer, "us". There are many more that need as much or more retrofitting but their name or multiple names are slipping my mind at the moment. Unfortunately many here will soon come to see the light about the beloved Ambassador Hotel just as so many contractors have in the past.

[GENTRY]

what an uninformed rant, Gentry.

1.  Since Jacksonville's downtown has the lowest crime district in the city, it would be a safe bet that Lakeland's would compare pretty equally per capita.

2.   There is a difference between 'condemned' and 'ready to demolish'.. and a little trip over to the renovated Klutho Apartments would give you a pretty clear example of how far a line that can be.

3.  I was a friend of Paul Hazlett, the developer at the Carling building in the 1980s whose plumbing woes and omni directional goat humping at the hands of the City saw the incurring of those 700k fines (they obviously were not annually assessed).

You should have seen what the City Hall looked like.  Or for that matter the AHL building that is currently serving as John Rood's other renovated masterpeice, 11 east.

The fact that the building is renovated and is a pretty nice establishment at the present time kind of makes your points wrong dont they?  It was condemned as well.

In fact they kind of make you look a little nuts.

Sorry but I'm not ranting. Look up the definition. Unlike you I'm not making emotional attacks. I'm just stating facts as an intelligent person would.

1. Sorry you are wrong. This zone (not district) in Jacksonville has the worst crime rate in the city as ranked by Forbes magazine. Where are your facts coming from? Sorry the two cities don't compare.

2. "Condemned" is the word used for "ready to demolish." What you've missed is the red tape between the two. The lowrise Klutho Apartments at 1830 N. Main St. did not pose the same problems a high rise hotel brings to the table. That's comparing apples and oranges. That makes no sense.

3. Again your facts are erroneous. You are talking about your friend at the Carling which is irrelevant. I was talking about 11 East. You referred to fines incurred on a building I don't know about. I was talking about my friend who with his partners owned 11 East (not Carling) and were paying $700.000 a year for property taxes. Get your story straight.

I've lived in downtown for the last 13 plus years. Care to set me straight on anything else you don't understand?

Look at some of my other posts and you may understand a bit better than you come across. I don't see why you have an emotional investment.

great.  provide sources please.

What facts do you need? I stated the only one needed for this reply.

1. Forbes magazine. Anyone here who thinks that this crime zone only encompasses Lavilla. They couldn't be more incorrect. I suggest they come live downtown to find out.

2. Condemned and ready to demolish are written in the city code for building inspections.

3. You were talking about one building. I was talking about another. Both ended up being saved.

[GENTRY]

Okay all. I'm simply stating facts from someone in the know. I'm not being emotional about this because it is a business matter not one that should affect any of us personally. Believe me when I say it doesn't matter to the city or contractors one way or the other. Far too many decisions are reached by those with greased palms. That is why this topic is debatable at all.

1. Yes I have lived downtown for over 13 years and worked here many more.
2. Yes I know condemned signs go up and come down.
3. Yes many projects receive government subsidies and grants (that's why contractors hover like flies).
4. Yes I would like to see the Ambassador Hotel renovated but it is my belief (just mine) that the principals involved know that this project would be a wash. Refer back to number 3.
5. Yes many of the projects you all listed were feasible. 99% in the city have been what are known as low rise renovations. They don't pose the same problems high rise buildings do.
6. Yes other medium/high and rises have been renovated but not all are built alike nor do they age alike. Case in point. The "modern" six-story Berkman Plaza 2 garage. Not all things are created equal.

It will eventually come to light that this is not a doable project. There are at least 6 other medium/high rise buildings that are as historical, need far less retrofitting, thus costing us, the tax payer, less.

Just because a contractor tells his principal(s), who tells our elected officials, it's doable doesn't mean it's best for us in the long run.

why are you under the impression that taxpayer money is being used for this project?

I was planning on referring you to another one of my posts but I'll address it here. Many principals and contractors have approached the private owner of the Ambassador Hotel over the last 10 years at least. Each one has also wanted incentives, subsidies and grants (free money) from our elected officials. That's fairly common but what's even more common is that every one of them has backed out when they didn't get what they expected. Sound familiar? Shipyards, courthouse, etc...

Check this old link to get an idea of how many project (new and restoration) have fallen by the wayside. Make sure to look at the dates and dollar estimates. Same old story.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.jacksonville.com/images/022505/62568_400.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php%3Ft%3D73930&usg=__w4COIjsk27lkApvEVHjvaM7JmY0=&h=281&w=400&sz=31&hl=en&start=14&um=1&tbnid=MvVMptJuU1n-ZM:&tbnh=87&tbnw=124&prev=/images%3Fq%3D201%2BNorth%2BHogan%2BStreet%2Bjacksonville%26hl%3Den%26um%3D1

[Ernest Street]

I really don't understand why Gentry is being attacked for posting an opinion. Is this a Public Blog or what?
I understand optimism in restoring our downtown buildings, but have any of you "Decade Downtowners" tried to restore a SERIOUSLY rundown Riverside House?...Some people (owners or willed offspring) have run these places into the ground. And I mean INTO THE GROUND! whether from substance abuse or just plain laziness or greed, some people can stretch the life of a structure (keeping the inside from prying eyes) till the outside shows rot and is noticed by neighbor reports or the COJ Patrols.
Face it folks..some owners have abused thier property beyond repair and most prospective investors wont fork out the extra exorbient amount of money to gut and FACADE a pile of crap into your  Hip new establishment.
This building like the PARK PLACE was a drug buying place and a known Shooting gallery. I dont believe in bad vibes or past history or deaths, but a LOT of others do and are scared away.
Show us the structural reports showing us how sound this building is and we ALL will be convinced it is worth saving.
Is it leaning? Folding? has anyone done a Laser Leveling/Survey yet?
flame away...this is what freedom of speech is all about.

[Paradox]

I was the one that took all of the pictures of this hotel. It is very sound structurally. Also the roof is very sound and does not leak besides the wide open door and busted sky lights. The condemnation letters inside the building did not state that the structure was unsafe. It was just not up to code in alot of the rooms anymore. It needs a renovation just like the baptist building you put in your top 5. That building is not really rentable in its current condition and if it was to have people in it I doubt it would be up to code. Any structure that old will not be up to code if it has not been updated. Like in any renovation they have forseen and included in the expected cost a complete stripping and replacement of the insides including electric, plumbing, and safety. It would basically be a shell with floors. This will be far cheaper than new construction as they would have to not only tear everything down and clean up but STILL add all of those things that make it up to code. There was no part of this building which felt unsafe.

[JeffreyS]

Ernest freedom of speech is also extended to the people who respond to your words.  You can and will be critiqued on what you say.  The protection of speech is that it won't be suppressed by government.

[Ernest Street]

If someone wants to save the shell,all power to them,but when a demo like this happens, costs always go up as unforseen problems are uncovered.
You must have a strong stomach,and wallet. Overuns could send someone to the cleaners.

[jason_contentdg]

True, Ernest...but its doable.  What we were told many times in this thread was that you can't renovate a condemned building, which is not true.

[Ernest Street]

I agree...COJ will plaster those at their whim.The Pearl didnt deserve that.

[Dog Walker]

Stephen has a good point.  The houses of Springfield and Riverside will still be standing when the houses built in the '70's, 80's, and '90's have long crumbled back into rubble.  Fiberboard, dry wall and yellow pine studs will not stand the test of time the way first growth, longleaf pine, plaster and brick will do.

[Ernest Street]

I'm with you on the Residential...Gotta turn that regulator up to 100 psi to shoot a nail into some of these studs. I.m aware we had quite a few lumber and turpentine Magnates build houses in our area back in the early 1900's.
I still wonder about the integrity of some of the buildings downtown,(A lot are connected to each other) but if someone is willing to commit  till completion...I salute them and will watch their efforts.

[GENTRY]

And besides, Gentry isnt being attacked, its the nonsense statements that hes making.

I have asked him to back up what he says with a little fact, which he doesnt seem inclined to do.

Ernest, I have done a number of historic renovations, several blocks worth in fact of multistory commercial buildings which had to be completely gutted, re plumbed, rewired and even the facades had to be torn completely off the bottom floors and completely rebuilt.  On one of them we had to have cast iron decorative elements recast in order to restore the historic facades.

There are federal tax credits for doing that kind of work, and one of my associates was able to actually make a profit from simply restoring the buildings, when he leveraged the tax credits against enterprise and empowerment zone credits.  Of course those things are only handy if you are the type that would otherwise have to pay a couple hundred thousand a year in taxes, but Reed was that kind of guy.

But regardless of cash flow or tax credits.  When you restore one of the well built buildings of a hundred years ago, you end up with a product that simply could not be replicated for a three times the price in today's market. 

Its an illusion to claim that "it would cheaper to tear it down and build it new' anyways.

If you think about it, the 'logic' behind the argument just breaks down over time.

Restore = 1 million.
That building is then good for another hundred years.

Tear Down and build modern building =600,000.00
It lasts another 30 years.  then has to be replaced
= 600,000.00

That one lasts another 30 years.  then has to be replaced
= 600,000.00

Then that one has to be replaced at about the same time as the restoration could be restored again.

Over time, the building that was 'cheaper' ends up being twice as expensive.

Geeez I give up. I gave you the simple facts and now you rattle off numbers from the top of your head. Have you ever been outside Jacksonville? Have you done more than the simple handyman work, over the years, you alluded to?

If a one hundred year old building was built with superior quality then it's worth the look and possibly a retrofit. What you're arguing is that all "old" buildings were built that way. You couldn't be farther from the truth. Just because the Carling and 11 East stood the test of time doesn't mean the Ambassador Hotel did. BTW. The Carling shakes and sound travels through it like going through rice paper. Though the structure is sound, the contractor cut corners and did the bare minimum. Nothing of any safety risk but none the less, the residents have been cheated. It will not last another hundred years sorry. 11 East on the other hand does stand a better chance of seeing one hundred renovated years.

The problem with you bloggers here is you all believe every old building can or should be saved. Hey not my words. I have been talking only about the Ambassador Hotel. Every one of you have been giving me countless examples.

Okay once and for all. The Ambassador Hotel will never be renovated/restored. However. There are at least 6 other downtown buildings (historical or not) that will eventually see new life. Trust me or do you want me to pull city records? LMAO.

[Tripoli1711]

All I can say, Stephen, is you may as well give up.  It seems impossible he will provide reliable backup for his assertions and he seems inherently dismissive of all "bloggers."  What is it about some people that they go on websites and then give the proprietors of the website the business?  If "bloggers" are so stupid.. don't read the blog.

To a better point- the thought of "Legitimate Clown Makeup" makes me laugh.  Illegitimate Clown Makeup might make me laugh even harder if I knew what that would look like.  It would also be a pretty bizarre name for a band.

[GENTRY]

um.  did you bother reading the post?

Im still waiting for your blistering report from a non "Forbes Magazine" source that shows that Downtown is the worst crime district since the twin cities (Sodom and Gomorrah) went up in flames.

And it would be nice if you would give a little insight on the accuracy of your own assessment.  Aside from staying in a fleabag hotel in the 90s, what actual examination of the buildings structure and systems are you privy to?

Also, since you alluded to your working knowledge of the perils of the 11east building, which of the ownership groups were you speaking about?  After all, if you are going to prominently mention the building whose renovation proves the clown makeup you are wearing is legitimate, it would be nice to know a:  who these mysterious owners were, and b: what chilling insights did they give you about the unworkablility of the building before the building was then, miraculously, renovated?

Also what are you talking about with this 'retrofit' business?

Ive only heard that term used in the building trade in connection with making a building able to survive an earthquake.

Are you aware that Jacksonville has very few of these?  We are most likely to have a Hurricane.  which the building has already survived twice.

Your actual point seems to be:

It is cheaper to redevelop buildings that have less wrong with them.

No one would refute this point.  Its a good point.  Its a sane point.

Perhaps you could hang out with that point for a hot minute and stay away from the big hot plate of Crazy?

All you want to do is argue. You obviously lack any capacity for construction terminology. Which proves to me you are spewing nonsense. Retrofit is the process of furnishing with new or modified parts or equipment not available or considered necessary at the time of manufacture and/or to install (new or modified parts or equipment) in something previously manufactured or constructed and to adapt to a new purpose or need. Sound familiar?

Since my very first post on this topic it was not an emotional discussion, as is the nature of business. I have been stating what I know as an insider and my experience with this business. I am an Architectural Engineer for the city of Jacksonville, FL and previously Manila, Philippines who simply shared his opinion on the state of the Ambassador Hotel.

I won't address your other points because you're simply too dense or too young to learn. Hopefully for your sake it's the latter.

Peace out.

[Sportmotor]

All you want to do is argue. You obviously lack any capacity for construction terminology. Which proves to me you are spewing nonsense. Retrofit is the process of furnishing with new or modified parts or equipment not available or considered necessary at the time of manufacture and/or to install (new or modified parts or equipment) in something previously manufactured or constructed and to adapt to a new purpose or need. Sound familiar?

Since my very first post on this topic it was not an emotional discussion, as is the nature of business. I have been stating what I know as an insider and my experience with this business. I am an Architectural Engineer for the city of Jacksonville, FL and previously Manila, Philippines who simply shared his opinion on the state of the Ambassador Hotel.

I won't address your other points because you're simply too dense or too young to learn. Hopefully for your sake it's the latter.

Peace out.

For someone who doesnt put any emotion into discussions, your filled with it.