The impact of zoning in Jacksonville

[chris farley]

Ennis I did a lot of research on the buildings between 7th and 8th when I was treasurer of SAMBA.  In 1911 there was a pullout section to the newspaper for Springfield for 10 years after the fire, the building that had happened was incredible.   The photos in it are grainy but Kevin's at the corner of 7th and Main had lovely  wrought iron balconys all the way around as did  the the GRAY (name) building  c. 1907 halfway up the block, but theirs just across the front. On 8th after the Drugstore was a very large nursery, but no fire station.  I will share the stuff with you since I am interested in putting back buidlings as much as possible.  I know Kevin would wish to put back the balconys.  It is also important that all of the transoms are saved and restored, note the ones hidden under all kinds of crap pretty much all the way up the west side of that block, you can see their outlines and the dropped ceilings in the storefronts.
The drugstores I talked of previously were named J.Daniel Boone (they manufactured soda fountain equiment under that name  as well) and the owner's name was McDonald.  Sadly the one on Walnut was only pulled down about 8 years ago,
There are errors in the directories - that is to be understood - some of our buildings and houses are much older than those records show.  Shec is working on this.
Strangley enough although commercial stuff was being built, incredible mansions were also built at the same time on Mail , there are photos of them.
Billy sadly the early Sanborns did not always cover all of the Springfield buildings, it is like an octopus you have to keep following tenticles.  I try following bodies also that is how I have been able to find streets as they changed names.

[buckethead]

DogWalker.

As tedious as this sounds, Im actually hugely interested in the construction and layout of both greek and roman cities.

A very dear friend, Kortland Bottger (archaeology and classical studies) and I spent many many hours together examining the layouts and planning behind the classical world.

But the polis/forum/walls and stratified military/noble/slave/prols layouts dont really correspond to our modern notion of zoning.

You may not realize this, but modern cities were not 'zoned' until the late 20s.  The practice became nearly universal during the Roosevelt Administration.

Michael Llewyn, a sometime contributor to this site, and a professor at Florida Coastal School of Law is a master on the subject, and has produced the most intelligently argued papers on the downsides of zoning.

He refers quite often to the city of Houston Texas, which literally has no zoning laws at all as the basis of much of his discussion.

I just got back from Houston. I go there for a week or so every one or two months. When I move around the city, I am astounded by the way there is no method to the madness. While I agree with your assesment of what would constitute a good example of mixed use, I do not desire for Jacksonville to model itself after Houston: the ugliest beautiful city in the world.

[chris farley]

Re the Meeks building, it is my understanding of the overlay that these houses may have cottage type industries in them, there are restrictions on signage, number of clients in and out, but I think it allows for this.  Maybe I am wrong there are many small businesses in houses.   When I was at SAMBA I read the 33206 phone book and walked Spriongfield finding businesses, I think I came up with 189 - amazing number in houses i.e. travel agent, speech therapy etc.  Note the two at the top of Silver and 8th, one was real estate and one a beauty spa

[thelakelander]

The property appraiser's GIS website's zoning layer is down, but if the property isn't zoned CN-S, they would have had to apply for an exception or rezone to PUD.

For those interested in what the overlay says, use this link: http://library8.municode.com/default-now/home.htm?infobase=12174&doc_action=whatsnew

The beginning of the overlay section is Sec. 656.365

[strider]

Re the Meeks building, it is my understanding of the overlay that these houses may have cottage type industries in them, there are restrictions on signage, number of clients in and out, but I think it allows for this.

The commercial Meeks property on Laura had been down-zoned to RMD-S and had last been used as a church.  Mr. Meeks had to get a PUD for several reasons.  One of which is the staffing company that is run out of the building.  It was my understanding that this PUD is such that a regular old labor pool could be done there.  Not saying that will happen, but that it could.

As to the house next door, it was also RMD-S and is also now a PUD. Obviously he applied for it and was probably approved without question from the community.  If the neighborhood doesn't complain and/ or supports a zoning change, it typically happens.

In RMD-S, Mr. Meeks could have opened a low density group care home, but not the offices he has now, even by exception.

[strider]

Note the two at the top of Silver and 8th, one was real estate and one a beauty spa

I can’t speak for everyone one you found, but these two are zoned CRO-S and so the uses are permissible uses under the overlay, not as "cottage industries"...I realize you mean what zoning is calling "Home occupations ",…  but cottage industries does have a nicer ring to it...

Once the GIS maps are back up, you can see that in most cases either CCG-S or CRO-S is often carried down the various streets off of Main and 8th for the first 1/2 block, sometimes a little more.   Also, in some cases, the commercial infill was left CRO-S as well….I think only if the building was still a viable commercial structure and use.

[sheclown]

In Richmond (where I am right now), there is a zoning called "urban business" in which the bottom floor of a dwelling can be retail/commercial and the upper floors are residential.  This is spread out throughout the urban core on selected streets.  Apparently, there is also the zoning called R6 which means that the corner building on each block can be retail/commercial on the 1st floor.  This is how much of "The Fan" is zoned and that is a very vibrant urban neighborhood.

Do we know what other cities do? 

[thelakelander]

Love the Fan.  Here are a few images I took back in 2007.

[sheclown]

15 years ago, The Fan was a blighted area.

[thelakelander]

I think you'll agree when I say its more like a Riverside on steroids now.

[sheclown]

absolutely. 

[thelakelander]

Re the Meeks building, it is my understanding of the overlay that these houses may have cottage type industries in them, there are restrictions on signage, number of clients in and out, but I think it allows for this.

The commercial Meeks property on Laura had been down-zoned to RMD-S and had last been used as a church.  Mr. Meeks had to get a PUD for several reasons.  One of which is the staffing company that is run out of the building.  It was my understanding that this PUD is such that a regular old labor pool could be done there.  Not saying that will happen, but that it could.

As to the house next door, it was also RMD-S and is also now a PUD. Obviously he applied for it and was probably approved without question from the community.  If the neighborhood doesn't complain and/ or supports a zoning change, it typically happens.

In RMD-S, Mr. Meeks could have opened a low density group care home, but not the offices he has now, even by exception.

You're right.  Both Meeks properties have been rezoned to PUD.

http://apps.coj.net/PAO_PropertySearch/Basic/Detail.aspx?RE=0708670000

http://apps.coj.net/PAO_PropertySearch/Basic/Detail.aspx?RE=0708660000

I think everyone would agree that the Meeks properties are great additions to the neighborhood.  They are good proof of why zoning exceptions and PUD rezoning should be seriously evaluated before drawing the line in the sand and refusing pending investment in Springfield before true dialogue has taken place.  The more properties and proposals we can take serious and find a way to properly accomodate/integrate into the urban landscape, the quicker our commercial corridors will revitalize.

[Dan B]

It is interesting to see what projects where the stance of "we are just asking for you to enforce the law" is taken by certain individuals and organizations and the ones where it is not.

In fairness, when Meeks was working on his Office thats on the corner, Strider was wholly against it, for many of the same reasons that several are against the car wash, including traffic, and non-residential use in a residential area.

It has only been in recent years that he has become so enlightened.

[thelakelander]

Don't know about Strider's position, but I am in favor of ALL projects that are permissible by exception or going PUD to be evaluated with proper dialogue and planning before the rejection hammer comes down.  Imo, there's nothing worse than abandonment and parking lots.  We have too many of those and should be working to fill up vacant properties as quickly as possible. Let's keep this on the topic of zoning.

[ChriswUfGator]

Shouldnt strider be able to speak for himself dan?

What is your post about?  To project your opinion of his opinions?

The thread is about zoning.

No that's not how they roll around Springfield...or at least not around 1321 N. Main anyway.

Next they'll find some old code fine that was vacated and use it to de-validate him as a greedy slumlord.

Nobody's allowed to have any ideas for the neighborhood. That's against the rules. You didn't get that memo?