The impact of zoning in Jacksonville

[strider]

Springfieldgirl:

Quote from: stephendare on Today at 09:26:02 AM
Yes.  Much more black and white.

I find it funny that we say we would like nicer, more upscale businesses and you guys try to somehow make nice and more upscale into white. Who are the racists here?

The point is that a few who are among the minority social economic group of the groups that comprise Springfield seem to be the ones trying to control who and what gets opened.  While there is always a chance that race plays a part in it, however, I do not believe it is an intended part, rather an unintended consequence of the issue.

Back to the idea that many seem to say they want a urban setting, but seem to push for things that make it more like the familiar suburb.  It even seems like the current zoning plays to that idea of Springfield being more of a suburban community that a true urban one. I would propose that if left to their own resources, SPAR Council would "enforce" the overlay in such a way that Historic Springfield would become this island unto itself and therefore the community would find itself cut off from everything it needs to stay viable.

[Dan B]

Will the city issue a stop work order on a job that is progressing legally, and above board? Does race come into play in issuing a stop order? I thought that sort of thing was outlawed many years ago.

Asking a sincere question, has the  fish market submitted plans, or pulled permits? Are they required to?

Are they a store, market w/ seating, or a restaurant? Will they sell alcohol? Will it be available to go?

Aside from the garish use of color, I really dont have an opinion about them one way or the other. Does anyone have any actual information on them?

[Dan B]

Springfieldgirl:

Quote from: stephendare on Today at 09:26:02 AM
Yes.  Much more black and white.

I find it funny that we say we would like nicer, more upscale businesses and you guys try to somehow make nice and more upscale into white. Who are the racists here?

While there is always a chance that race plays a part in it, however, I do not believe it is an intended part, rather an unintended consequence of the issue.

Thank you for being intellectually honest on this issue. I actually kind of agree with you.

[thelakelander]

Everyone.  This thread is a discussion about zoning.  Lets get it back on track.

[strider]

Back to the idea that many seem to say they want a urban setting, but seem to push for things that make it more like the familiar suburb.  It even seems like the current zoning plays to that idea of Springfield being more of a suburban community that a true urban one. I would propose that if left to their own resources, SPAR Council would "enforce" the overlay in such a way that Historic Springfield would become this island unto itself and therefore the community would find itself cut off from everything it needs to stay viable.

Is there any truth to this?  If so, how do we change it?  How do we stop the "selective" enforcement if that is indeed what is going on? 

[Springfield Girl]

It is not selective enforcement. Read the planning staff's report, I feel it explains things very well. Zoning itself is selective though, if not our neighborhoods would be a free for all. I think if everyone used common sense these decisions would be very easy. I always ask myself, would I want to live next door to this use and I think if everyone would answer this question honestly we would not have the problems we do now. The past has proven that when undesirable uses are forced on a neighborhood, residents move out and the neighborhood declines and suffers.

[Dan B]

Everyone.  This thread is a discussion about zoning.  Lets get it back on track.

Lake, can you split out the fish market info. I wasnt aware SPAR had taken a stance on that place, and as I really dont know anything about it, I would be curious to know more.

Thanks!

[strider]

It is not selective enforcement. Read the planning staff's report, I feel it explains things very well. Zoning itself is selective though, if not our neighborhoods would be a free for all. I think if everyone used common sense these decisions would be very easy. I always ask myself, would I want to live next door to this use and I think if everyone would answer this question honestly we would not have the problems we do now. The past has proven that when undesirable uses are forced on a neighborhood, residents move out and the neighborhood declines and suffers.

I’m not sure what planning staff’s report you are talking about?

Yes, I agree everyone should use some common sense, however, I feel we will disagree on what constitutes common sense. 

Common sense says that if 3rd and Main is a more intrusive use than the car wash, then perhaps the car wash should be reasonable considered.  Common sense says that if a community has accepted three other  commercial in fills as good, then when someone asks about a fourth one, he should not just be told ‘it’s against the overlay”.  Common sense says that if a use is permissible, the community should not be working against it.  Common sense says that to do so sends potential business owners and investors elsewhere.

A quote from the thread about the car wash:

one girl wanted to open a business related with kids but claimed she was rejected by community representation and decided to take her thing somewhere else. The other lady was with Fresh Ministries on the Eastside (literally across the tracks). She sensed the same "gulf" in communication and vision that I have described on these threads over the last few days. She encouraged more dialogue. Many had a fear that the area could develop a negative reputation in the eyes of the commercial sector if Springfield remains a difficult place to open a business due to continued outright "community opposition" before dialogue has taken place.

While this thread is about zoning laws and their effects on the community,  this quote applies as how zoning is enforced is truly what effects the community, perhaps even more so than the actual zoning laws themselves.

[chris farley]

Ennis the building which houses the Pearl is much earlier than 1912, I believe it is c 1901, they took down houses to build it.  I have a copy of a May 1911 newspaper which shows it as a drugstore, along with the building at the NE corner of 8th and Main and another at the nw corner of 3rd and Walnut, all owned.run by the same man who lived over the one at 8th and Main.  The Pearl building is the one that is in that early postcard looking up Main - it had awnings and trim, the trolley is on a single track.  To the right of the Postcard you can see a little of Latimer's grocery store that stood on the SE corner of Main and 1st. Main Steet started really commercializing right after fire.

[tufsu1]

wait...so back in the early 1900s people tore down existing houses to build up commercial buildings....who knew 

[chris farley]

Some were moved i.e. one of the ones in Hoyt Terrace, if you go into American Memories, to their panoramic maps you can get  1888, but the best is 1893. It is said that there were only 100 houses in Springfield prior to the fire, I believe this map - hand drawn - says differently. At that time the street car was only electrified up to the waterworks, but by 1897 -  it was up to 8th street.  Where Carls now stands used to be stables for the mules which pulled the cars, but became like a terminus

[thelakelander]

Thanks Chris.  I thought some of those buildings were older but, at the moment, all I had to go by was what the property appraiser had listed.

[billy]

If you have a library card you can access the Sanborn Maps online, I think.

[BenDayHoe]

Ask for the right things here now and Springfield will get nothing.

We can’t say commercial infill is bad and then say three layers is wonderful in the same sentence anymore.

Someone wants to buy a old infill commercial building that has been empty for decades.  He looks around and sees Three Layers, The Meeks building, the other offices on Walnut.  He thinks having his office there would be a good idea and yet, when he inquires about it, he gets told he can’t have an office in the residential area.  By the local organization that consistently speaks praises for the Meeks building, Three Layers, etc., which I belive, all had to have PUD's or exceptions to be there anyway.  He starts telling his business associates to stay away from Springfield.

Maybe someone should ask Mr. Meeks how he got a single family home, that’s located next door to his business on Laura st rezoned for commercial use. I was told its going to be a law office.

[thelakelander]

Most likely a zoning exception, variance or rezoning to a PUD.  Its quite common and is fine for the neighborhood,considering the code is poorly written.  The problem is when we start with the against the overlay nonsense for permissible uses by exception.  Permissible by exception just means that project should be evaluated on an individual basis on whether it is a positive or negative on the surrounding area.