Florida 9B, linking 9A and U.S. 1, moving forward

[CS Foltz]

What really burns me up about the Port expansion is that rail was not considered initially..........expansion of 9A was and the taxpayers were going to have to pay to beef up and widen the roads! Rail was not in the running to begin with and it took public outcry to get the so-called Port Authorities moving in that direction! Faced with the prospect of hundreds and hundreds of truck wearing on that stretch, it should not take a mental giant any time to wonder why rail was not the first choice for transportation of containers......I mean bulk ship and then truck from a shipping point  rather than truck 380 miles plus outbound on roads my tax dollars pay to build and then maintain! The Port people had no vision, no plan and not alot of cents!

[tufsu1]

What really burns me up about the Port expansion is that rail was not considered initially..........expansion of 9A was and the taxpayers were going to have to pay to beef up and widen the roads!

Why shouldn't taxpayers fund infrstaructure improvements related to economic development?

and btw...you do know the port authority is a public entity right?

[CS Foltz]

Well that would depend on your definition of "public entity"! If you mean a stand alone Agency that is funded for and by the public.........yea, mine and your tax dollars busy funding not only the Port operations but the salaries of all involved. Mine and your tax dollars busy funding the 9A road upgrades required to transport 100's of containers out of the Port because of no Plan from the start to use rail instead of the road! A true public entity would be self sufficient, by my standards, and they are not..........still receiving public funds to operate but the public has no accountability, which is kinda like JAA come to think on it. Their current Clark replacement was recommended by Mr Ferrin. A true "Public Entity" should be responsible to the public and you are telling me they are?

[tufsu1]

Both JTA and JPA have board meetings that are open to the public...what private company does that?

And as for the new Airport Director, he comes highly qualified from Oakland's airport....and Mr. Ferrin knew him from when he worked at Oakland's port.

[Murjax]

I'm not so sure about the Wilderness Trail extension, those are some very expensive waterfront homes in the way.

Oh wait, FDOT will just abuse eminent domain.

I don't know about you, but I think it would be incredibly difficult to get an interstate (or an interstate like highway) to abruptly end at the 2 lane Roscoe Blvd in Palm Valley. It wouldn't be possible. If it were, eminent domain would be well, imminent. Seriously if there's so much money in the budget for 9B, why not build a rail line from Wilderness Trail in Palm Valley to the FEC mainline near the Avenues Mall. Aside from the few obvious roads it would have to be bridged over (9A, Southside, 95, Phillips Hwy) there is almost a continuous stretch of land (yes even west of 9A for a mile). If FDOT wants to fix a transportation problem, they should probably start there, because the last time I drove through Nocatee it was rather empty.

[stjr]

I'm not so sure about the Wilderness Trail extension, those are some very expensive waterfront homes in the way.

Oh wait, FDOT will just abuse eminent domain.

I don't know about you, but I think it would be incredibly difficult to get an interstate (or an interstate like highway) to abruptly end at the 2 lane Roscoe Blvd in Palm Valley. It wouldn't be possible. If it were, eminent domain would be well, imminent. Seriously if there's so much money in the budget for 9B, why not build a rail line from Wilderness Trail in Palm Valley to the FEC mainline near the Avenues Mall. Aside from the few obvious roads it would have to be bridged over (9A, Southside, 95, Phillips Hwy) there is almost a continuous stretch of land (yes even west of 9A for a mile). If FDOT wants to fix a transportation problem, they should probably start there, because the last time I drove through Nocatee it was rather empty.

I agree, Murjax, let them build a rail system, if they built anything at all.  My first preference would be for the Davis family to negotiate donating/selling their remaining lands west of the intracoastal to I-95 to the State or Feds for a state or national park.  See my MJ thread on this idea at: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,6223.0.html .

As to the connection to Wilderness Trail, the pathway I saw, looking at the Google aerial photo/map (see link below), was bridging over Rosco to the east-west portion of a newly 4 laned Wilderness into a stub of a newly 4 laned Palm Valley Rd./SR 210 terminating into A1A.  Once such a limited access east-west highway "landed" on to Wilderness, heading eastward, it could be a "local" road to A1A.

[Aerial of Wilderness Trail/Palm Valley Rd.: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=30.186869,-81.398649&spn=0.025188,0.038409&t=h&z=15 ]

[CS Foltz]

tufsu1 there is what is called an "Annual" meeting if it is publicly held, as in Stockholders! Open meeting are great but policy as well as a game plan are not taken from the public meeting. Supposedly the Board controls direction with or without input from the Public! Don't get me wrong, when I have the chance to put my two cents worth in I take the opportunity.......especially if I have a vested interest, as in money from my pocket or taxes, but I have no say in the game plan or business plan. I just get to pay for it one way or the other. Rail was not considered from the start up for the Dames Point Facility and that is a shear lack of vision or planning! 9A is just  a road for developer expansion that the taxpayer gets to fund and maintain and what burns me up is within several years it will have to be rebuilt because of the heavy truck useage!

[tufsu1]

9A is a road for developer expansion, and not a bypass around the city? 

And I guess the public funded and maintains the road, but never uses it? 

And why would an expressway have to be rebuilt just because trucks use it...or do you mean resurfaced?

[CS Foltz]

9A is a bypass around the city, when it is fully completed...........my understanding and looking at the maps leads me to believe it is the other half of 295 bypass! What is apparent is 9A was not designed for heavy truck traffic and that idea is based on the upgrades and widening being proposed. This is based on the "Container" traffic departing from Dames Point when rail should have been the Number One moving system rather than trucks but due to a lack of vision and proper planning from the Head of the Port Authority down. It does not make any monetary sense to have to build a road up and plan on having to rebuild due to heavy traffic within 3 years from being beefed up to supposedly handle said traffic! Most containers are 20' x 8' or variations there of.....weight limitations at 80 Thousand Pounds which is the truck limits for traveling on the road,except for permitted loads limited to daylight travel and with escorts. Container trucks don't have escorts but they have weight and because of  that 9A will breakdown in a very short period of time...........road was not designed for those kinds of weights from the start...........we get to pay for the upgrade and the next upgrade and the next one? 9B would complete that side of the loop but at what cost?

[tufsu1]

9A is fully complete...and has been for about a year...9B has nothing to do with completing the loop!

Widening of 9A to 6 lanes has always been contemplated....that's why the Dames Point bridge was built w/ 6 lanes and the median is wide enough on the rest of the road.

[Ocklawaha]

Ock, you haven't responded to those who have pointed out 9B was conceived of by St. Johns County officials well before the current port expansions.  We aren't too stupid to recognize bait and switch.  We are insulted by the games public officials play with these projects to backfill with excuses for their construction.

Sorry stjr, I've been off on other threads seeing what I could stir up... Might have been before the "Current Port Expansions," as you say. I've been here since just after WWII and damn if I can remember a single time when the Port wasn't 1. Expanding, or 2. Planning Expansion. Even that I-22 Corridor that in the 1960's was announced as a multimodal KCY-JAX Expressway/Railroad/Utilities route that would open the West to JAXPORT. Only back then I don't think we called it "Jaxport." Just as along with the Dames Point Bridge, I can think of Mayport, 20TH Street-Merril, Timaquana-University (which I think was later changed to Butler), Fleming Island-Switzerland M/L... Out of the whole batch, only one was built, today we call it the Broward. I can certainly see how the current Port Expansion with it's target being almost 100% containers, without balanced rail access, could be the start of a disaster. So even if the studies predate the current port moves, it has been linked to the port since I first heard of it. Chicken or Egg? What does it matter when your looking at 3 Million Containers?

OCKLAWAHA

[CS Foltz]

tufsu1 I guess you have not been out by Merrill Road anytime of late? When I first started doing work for Powertel (became Voicestream and then T Mobile) the Merrill Road area was nothing but tree's! Within 3 years the outer Perimeter was completed and linked everything together ...........Outer Perimeter has expanded to take into account additional T Mobile customers who now live in that area's.........telecom use's high power forcasting logarithms and demographics to forecast where the system needs to think about placing a tower or a system at in order to maintain system continuity. That particular area has shopping malls and condos and apartment houses from hell.............they are sprouting like mushrooms! This is why urban planning is critical before we build over our own toes..........but plan for expansion. Dames Point was not designed for Rail from the start and the thought of millions of containers traveling over that section of road is ridiculous. I have no problem paying for needed infrastructure or maintaining it..........I have a problem with unplanned commercialism utilizing public roads when the obvious option should have been rail not public roads.......rail can handle the millions of containers to a hub point.......roads create problems for the traveling public not to mention the roads themselves!