Florida 9B, linking 9A and U.S. 1, moving forward

[Jason]

IMO, collector/distributer roads between Racetrack and CR 210 would be ideal because it would easily push the stalled traffic exiting/entering I95 at CR210 away from the through traffic.  The CR210 interchange is already getting mile long exit ramps on I95 SB to separate the exiting traffic from the other lanes.  They could be easily tied into a C/D system.

[CS Foltz]

I keep getting the impression this is a game plan being made up as it tries to move forward. I have yet to see just how 9B is going to do much of anything other than open that area up to developers which we need without planning for it like another hold in the head! Maybe we should consider making the 9B extension a "Toll" road in order to control traffic useage and get some return on our tax money?

[Jason]

If it is to be a toll road I think we will see just how useless it is. 

[cline]

I keep getting the impression this is a game plan being made up as it tries to move forward.

Actually, this has been in the works for years.  The PD&E and design are already done.  Its not exactly being "made up as it tries to move forward". 

[CS Foltz]

cline that maybe so....I don't know for sure much about anything other than when I look at the total cost expended for the various projects being discussed,planned and in the works and stop and think about just what those dollars could do for a "Rail" system in place of all of the concrete being planned.........I say "What the Hell"! Noise reduction walls when the decibel levels make plain sound to the point it could be considered a health hazard, 6 to 8 lanes acoming  because we need the additional wideth to handle all of the potential traffic? Gentlemen what is wrong with this picture?? 9B is just a developers inroad which kinda makes me wonder just who owns that part of the world and what might be their ultimate goal........I wonder what the developement will be named.......that would be the first one in and really glad I could help!

[thelakelander]

When I get some time, I'll post a few land use maps and further explain how it will open land for future development.

I bet you all thought I forgot about this!  Here are a few maps to show why I believe 9B will open more land for low density sprawl development.

The image below contains an aerial, land use and zoning classification information for an isolated "high and dry" plot of land dab smack in the middle of the 9B segment between 9A and US 1.



A. Zoning Use (upper left illustration)

Notice the blue spot labled "CO."  That stands for commercial office.  Permitted uses include:

Commercial Office (CO) District.   
(a)   Permitted uses and structures.   
(1)   Medical and dental or chiropractor offices (but not clinics or hospitals).
(2)   Professional or business offices.
(3)   Cosmetology and similar uses including facilities for production of eyeglasses, hearing aids, dentures, prosthetic appliances and similar products either in conjunction with a professional service being rendered or in a stand alone structure not exceeding 4,000 square feet.
(4)   Day care centers incidental to a professional office
(5)   Essential services, including water, sewer, gas, telephone, radio, television and electric, meeting the performance standards and development criteria set forth in Part 4.
(6)   Single family dwellings which were originally constructed as single family dwellings.

Who would zone for these types of uses on a plot of land with no visibility or access?


B. Land Use (upper right illustration).

Notice the same spot, now green, and labled "CGC" or Community/General Commercial.  Also take a look at the land labled LDR (Low Density Residential) going up the east side of 9B and 9A.  My guess, is this commercial area will serve the low density sprawl that is eventually build on the land surrounding it, east of 9A and 9B. 


C. larger Zoning Use image (lower left illustration)

I find it interesting how 9B splits this area right in half.  Its hard to imagine an isolated parcel like this, having a commercial designation and no possibility of future road access to connect it to the rest of the city's street network.


D. Aerial (lower right illustration)

I find this aerial to be quite revealing.  Judging from the plant material, most of this property seems to be pretty dry.  All it needs is a little access and visibility to make it marketable.  9B will immediately provide the visibility.  A few frontage roads can provide a little access.  However, when push comes to shove and congestion becomes an issue, there's little doubt in my mind that some type of interchange (midway point would be in the area identified as RPI or Residential-Professional-Institutional in land use map) can be developed to give future development access to 9B.  So in other words, the establishment of the 9B corridor opens development opportunities to land that has, up until now, been severely isolated and out of sight.

[stjr]

Lake, good work.  Add that the land in this area is owned by the Davis's and others with intentions to develop, and you can be sure it will be under asphalt and concrete quick enough.

What would be especially interesting is if 9B has a built-in overpass in the vicinity of this area to cut an east-west road from US1/Philips Hwy to the eastern side of the future 9B.  That would be an assurance of urban sprawl.

[north miami]

Many years ago I noted an MPO future roadways proposal map depicting a St.Augustine extension on down in to 'off limits' lands;Dee Dot,that we had just defended from the proposed Southeast Landfill.
Later,when the Nocatee "surprise" sprung it all made sense.

There is considerable predictive capability in tracking 'sprawl',although community organization and environmental groups have typically entered the arena late in the game.These posts are rare...and refreshing.

[reednavy]

Why can't they go around Bayard, instead of taking the entire SE corner of it?

[stjr]

Many years ago I noted an MPO future roadways proposal map depicting a St.Augustine extension on down in to 'off limits' lands;Dee Dot,that we had just defended from the proposed Southeast Landfill.
Later,when the Nocatee "surprise" sprung it all made sense.

Good insight, North Miami.  It would be a "natural" to extend St. Augustine Road through Bayard as its new "main street" and onward to an interchange with 9B and then under it to the eastern lands held by the Davis's.  Unfortunately, its not "if" but probably "when".  Now we can begin to see the real reason for 9B and why sprawl just keeps unfolding.  

I'll go one step further in my prediction.  The St. Augustine Road extension will become a new road to the beach.  Based on aerials, tying into Wilderness Trail/Palm Valley Rd. would bring it to A1A/Ponte Vedra at the southern boundary of TPC.  How convenient!

[Aerial of Wilderness Trail/Palm Valley Rd.: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=30.186869,-81.398649&spn=0.025188,0.038409&t=h&z=15 ]

[Ocklawaha]

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Nice maps Lake, good information.

As tusfu1 and myself have said about 100 times in other threads, this WHOLE THING is about the port. If you don't think this Port expansion gos WAAAAY PAST the local hype, just check out the Federal site on this road, I-795. It has taken the entire Southeast 50 years to get the I-22 corridor added to the Federal Interstate List, but along comes some home ports and badda-bing - badda-biff, instant Interstate connector.

I have been thinking of Jason's suggestion that port traffic could just use I-295/95's crumbling interchange and then head East/North to and from the port. Highway 9B/795 does cut off some miles, but the answer might be in part the fact that anyone traveling I-95 through the I-295 already knows that there isn't a solid piece of concrete anywhere on 95. A few more pounds and it's going to become the nations first gravel interstate.


Headed North?


Hecksher Drive, I-295, MLK/Talleyrand? SOMETHING BETTER MOVE SOON!

The pounds are very interesting too. If we hit the projected 3,000,000 containers, actually I believe the Port is Projecting TEU's. A TEU is the standard shipping measurement for container traffic. While they do come in some other sizes and lengths, as a measure yardstick a TEU is a 20' x 8' 5", max weight 58,000 pounds (think in terms of what THAT would do to your driveway). If only a quarter of our containers head South into Florida, (realistic because Disney has named us THEIR cargo port for ALL Disney/Orient toys and...) that's still 750,000 TEU'S. One comes out with something like 4,350,000,000 Billion pounds. Ouch.

Unless City Hall steps up and rebuilds that "S" line, and cuts a deal for ownership and a shortline to leaseback neutral access to all of the Port, then every ounce of 2,054 big rig truck traffic moving south daily, will be on the highway.

I still say build it, and build additions all the way to the port, get the money while the Federals are handing it out! HEAVY ROADWAY construction, NOW!

OCKLAWAHA

[north miami]

Stevedare-

I see in an earlier post you note the need to track land owner involvement and influence in the Beltway process.

The curiosity is exactly,perfectly likely too late.
I have been a student of the beltway proposal since 1978.Today's organizations such as the River Keeper,Sierra etc. have been clue less.Only the Florida Wildlife Federation has seen involvement-I insisted on the creation of the FWF Northeast office due in part to address the 'defacto' beltway.The FWF has since engaged in Beltway related matters.(I abruptly resigned from my FWF vice chair position due to 'profound sense of futility'.Selfishly-I say get on with it- good for my book.I'm not staying around here anyway)
FTU David Baierlein trailed me for two days during critical (long past) events.
There are elements likely deserving formal investigation.
For starters: on the Clay County side  Reinhold Corp/Jack Myers key 'driver' since the earliest implementation of the Local Government Planning act of the early 70's. Genesis Group as consultant for County Brannan/Chaffee sector plan and later,during Lake Asbury sector,Myers.And don't forget the Lake aAsbury sector plan (#1 - this time Prosser Hollock*Nocatee*) that wasn't- curiously deemed not authorized by state DCA on the eve of transmittal after months of proceedings failed to win pre determined putcome sought by development.See also Jack Myers attempt to swap Ravines State Conservation Lands for the beltway alighnment most beneficial to Reinhold...the early 70's dream.

On the St.Johns county side- see a curious swing in the road near the river-at the needed convenience of Randy Ringhaver and his 'sensitive' holdings,who earlier mailed a letter asking fellow land owners to oppose.

All the above but a figment of a highlight.I can't believe how bad 'Folio' is with this,-although as a result of a small mailing I made to Anne Schindler last month she knows or is reminded of much more than shared here.

[north miami]

stjr-
your thoughts on St.Augustine road extension...

Indeed,what we see is not what we get."Nocatee" came as a surprise perhaps in part to gain development credits/vesting while the getting was good,on the heels of pesky citizen Future Land Use Maps et al.
And they hit a home run,with weak legal challenge by Florida Wildlife Federation and Sierra,further watered down by Thousand Friends of Florida and outright public endorsement and a 'protected' Intracoastal area that was former sludge dump.

Since Nocatee St.Johns county has seen a run of DRI amidst basically ignored FLUM as only past PZB member David Wiles can describe.The future is paved-of course in friendly growth management terms,with remnant natural features.The unfolding urban transformation of a county that sold itself against evil Duval county will be telling.

Here too-the lack of "news" & insight.

[stjr]

I'll go one step further in my prediction.  The St. Augustine Road extension will become a new road to the beach.  Based on aerials, tying into Wilderness Trail/Palm Valley Rd. would bring it to A1A/Ponte Vedra at the southern boundary of TPC.  How convenient!

On looking again at the aerials, an even more preposterous possibility is BOTH a St. Augustine Road local traffic extension to at least the intracoastal AND an interstate extension from the I-295/9A - 9B interchange eastward to the beaches.

See map at: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Jacksonville,+Duval,+Florida&ll=30.17125,-81.470833&spn=0.201535,0.307274&t=h&z=12

[reednavy]

I'm not so sure about the Wilderness Trail extension, those are some very expensive waterfront homes in the way.

Oh wait, FDOT will just abuse eminent domain.