SPAR's "RED ALERT" aimed at neighbors...uses Proton Lab staff and faculty ?!?

[sheclown]

As long as you are saying that we cannot exist where legally we are allowed to exist, then how can we find middle ground? 

Not only do we follow the law, but we are covered under the Fair Housing Act. 

You don't get a vote as to whether or not you want us.  The city and the federal government say we can stay.

[Dan B]

Its not a matter of you not existing. Its a settled issue, that your licenced facility on Pearl is grandfathered in.

Beyond that one house is where the issue is.

If it were a settled issue, then this discussion wouldn't still be happening.

[sheclown]

So, you don't believe we exist, legally?

[strider]

Let’s try this for middle ground.  SPAR Council backs off their smear campaign, gives up on their attempts at finding a way to change the laws to get rid of us  and we go about our business and leave them alone.  We continue to insure that our houses are well maintained, the renters are good neighbors and we continue to check on our houses regularly as we do now.  We also will agree to leave the overlay alone as long as you leave us alone and allow us to continue to operate our legal businesses in peace. Oh, and a public apology for the all the times they lied about us might be nice too.

Not much chance of that, is there?  So, here we are and here we stay, vigilant and ready to counter whatever they may dream up next.  If this attack, which seems to be “get them at what ever the cost, regardless of truth and fairness“, continues, then all is fair game. The choice has always been theirs.  To accept the truth, to actually follow the laws themselves and to accept everyone who lives in the community or to continue as they have. Which do you think it will be?

[Dan B]

Its not a matter of whether or not I think you have the right to exist. I think the issue is unsettled.

I personally do not believe it should be allowed, but unlike other posters on here, I dont believe the world revolves around me.

Truth be told, I really almost dont care about the 5 person 'sober houses', except that there is now a model that can be replicated by others, like JuCoby Pittman.

I dont believe that you and Joe have it out to make Springfield a bad place, but I believe there are others who could care less what kind of swill they put here.

I HOPE that some sort of a compromise can be had with the 'sober houses', that disallows that model to be used again, but in the end, it wont be decided by me, and my opinion is just that... my opinion.

[sheclown]

...and this is a place where we can begin a conversation, Dan. 

[fsu813]

Strider,

what "smear campaign"? Are they actively posting on MetroJax about how horrible you are, or is it the other way around?

They do thier work behind the scenes, for the most part. They didn't publicize thier emails, you dug them up. SPAR is allowed to communicate with thier members without being accused of a "smear campaign" right? They are allowed to express thier opinion to thier elected officails, right?

As are you. The only difference is that SPAR wouldn't dig up your old emails and try and start a public propaganda war against you.

If you feel they have, then the most logical place to look would be thier Weekly Newsletter, since this is how they communicate with all thier members.

Is it there? No.

What about the paper News Letter sent our every couple of months? Is it in there? No.

Hmmm......so if SPAR is trying to launch a massive smear campaign they aren't doing a very good job.....

working privately to achive thier goal, yes. a public smear campaign, no.

while you could be doing the same thing, working with others behind the scenes to achive a goal, you instead attempt to make it as messy and loud as possible, repeatedly mistating the "issue" SPAR has with you. Purposely i suppose, to draw sympathy.

do you think you've persuaded anyone?

I agree with most others in stating that the rehab homes you have now are fine. but we don't want new / additonal rehab homes/boarding houses.

that's the issue.

especially since not all owners of such houses will run them as well as you do yours.

Now as far as "finding a middle ground", my understanding is that this was done sometime ago. SPAR agreed not to pursue the issue any further, your existing rehab houses were fine, as long as you don't open new ones.

but that agreement went out the door when you found a way to open new ones legally. so the loophole is legal, but goes against the sentiment of the law when it was written.

well, that pisses some people off, understandabley. Not me personally, b/c i can't blame you for trying to take advantage of the loophole.....everyone tries to find loopholes in taxes, speeding, double coupons, etc. But when a loophole is revealed, don't be surpised when it's eventually addressed.

I've got a question. How much money do you stand to make or lose if the zoning/overlay law is changed?

I don't have a direct finanical interest in this, neither does SPAR. but you do, so i think it's a fair question to ask. what do you have to gain?

[sheclown]

I think Louise saying Joe threatened her and then mailing a copy of Claude's letter banning Joe from the SPAR building to city council members, General Counsel, city department heads and saying "this is the type of person we are dealing with" is pretty ugly.

I could go on.  In about every third email she or Claude mentions Joe by name. 

[sheclown]

We earn enough to keep our houses out of foreclosure. 

The last thing this neighborhood needs is another couple sitting idle.

[Gonzo]

Dan, the city ordinances say that five people living together in a family situation is a family, related or not.  It is not the overlay.

This group of people can live in a single family home.  It is considered a family.

This is what we have done.  Where is the "loop hole?"

So then, no, There is no middle ground?

I am confused.  Gonzo?

See, this is what I meant when I said both sides need to back down. Keep in mind I am trying to see eye-to-eye here...

Strider you say the law is on your side. But, just because something isn't illegal does not necessarily mean you should do it. An example would be that it is not illegal to smoke but, it is well documented that it is not only bad to you, but can cause serious illness to others through consequences of the behavior.

SPAR, on the other hand, should act responsibly and loose the holier-than-thou attitude. The neighborhood consists of many types of people. Rich, poor, black, white, young and old. Coexistence with all should be a paramount directive. While another of their goals should be to assist businesses it also has a duty to limit the density of certain types of business in a responsible and ethical manner.

It seems that the posturing both sides are exhibiting is a big portion of the problem. Someone felt threatened so they pushed back whether that was unintentionally overshadowing someone or by writing a letter is immaterial. Everyone took it too far. There is bad blood and no one seems to want to see past it. Shades of the Hatfields and McCoys!

Middle ground:

Strider, continue to operate your current houses in a responsible manner, but do not open any more within the neighborhood. Accept that the overlay will be changed to prevent further homes of this nature from opening. This does not prevent you from expanding your business it merely prevents you from doing it in Springfield.

SPAR, get off Strider's back. Allow him to operate his legal businesses free from harassment. But, continue to work towards preventing further group homes from opening. Ethically operate the organization in complete transparency and in accordance with all bylaws.

[Gonzo]

The real issue which keeps getting missed is that SPAR is acting predatorily.

That can't be fixed by making the victims defend themselves, and such an approach is silly.

SPAR does not need to be asked to 'LAY OFF" by its handful of members.

It needs to become a positive agency for change and not put itself in these types of situations.

After looking over the letters that started this whole thread, I have to ask what is predatory about them? It seems to me that they are emails from concerned citizens to other concerned citizens about a topic of great concern.

The supposed issue with The Proton Beam people is a non-issue. Have you never spoken to a co-worker and asked them to support something you feel strongly about? It happens daily in my office. And, yes, company email is used.

The issue is that a large majority of Springfield residents do not want more rooming/boarding/recovery houses in the neighborhood. And they have every right to do lobby to prevent more from opening just as proponents have the right to lobby for them.

Brass tacks time fellas. There are those on this board who have a serious spilled-milk complex. While I do not always agree with SPAR -- and, indeed, have not renewed my membership for that reason -- I agree that we do not need more group homes. And while I do not want more group houses I think that the ones that are currently operating legally and ethically should be allowed.

Once again I say, act like adults, sit down at a table and talk it out. There is middle ground but both sides have to be willing to give. And none of that, "his half of the cookie is bigger than mine."

[iluvolives]

We earn enough to keep our houses out of foreclosure. 

The last thing this neighborhood needs is another couple sitting idle.

Does that mean that this is a side business for you?

[sheclown]

Yes

[thekillingwax]

I'll say this: I've never been pro-SPAR. We've had run ins with them in the past and I usually don't care about their goals. When all this business with the group homes and crap started, I felt bad for those involved but the past few weeks of activity here have made my opinion of the folks involved in the group home trade do a complete 180. The dragging out of emails and constant attacks makes you look pathetic.

And do you honestly think people would rather have more group homes than an empty house? Especially when you're wielding your rehab huts like a weapon? Don't mess with us or we'll open more? Really? What happens when something else doesn't go your way- will you threaten to mismanage your properties? Purposefully house dangerous people?

You want a real starting point? How about all the parties involved get the hell out of my neighborhood and leave us sane, quiet people alone?

[strider]

FSU813: what "smear campaign"? Are they actively posting on MetroJax about how horrible you are, or is it the other way around?

A definition: A smear campaign is an intentional, premeditated effort to undermine an individual's or group's reputation, credibility, and character. "Mud slinging", like negative campaigning, most often targets government officials, politicians, political candidates, and other public figures. However, private persons or groups may also become targets of smear campaigns perpetrated in schools, companies, institutions, families, and other social groups.
Smear tactics differ from normal discourse or debate in that they do not bear upon the issues or arguments in question. A smear is a simple attempt to malign a group or an individual and to attempt to undermine their credibility.
Smears often consist of ad hominem attacks in the form of unverifiable rumors and are often distortions, half-truths, or even outright lies; smear campaigns are often propagated by gossip spreading. Even when the facts behind a smear are shown to lack proper foundation, the tactic is often effective because the target's reputation is tarnished before the truth is known.
Smears are also effective in diverting attention away from the matter in question and onto the individual or group. The target of the smear is typically forced to defend his reputation rather than focus on the previous issue.
Smear tactics are considered by many to be a low, disingenuous form of discourse; they are nevertheless very common.
The problem is, SPAR Council has indeed done this, whether they just did it through their newsletter, e-mails to city officials and word of mouth, they still did it.  While you could argue that we have done the same thing, the big difference here is the we actually used the truth and what we said about SPAR Council has been verifiable.

They do thier work behind the scenes, for the most part. They didn't publicize thier emails, you dug them up. SPAR is allowed to communicate with thier members without being accused of a "smear campaign" right? They are allowed to express thier opinion to thier elected officails, right?

As are you. The only difference is that SPAR wouldn't dig up your old emails and try and start a public propaganda war against you.

Of course they can express their views to their membership and city officials.  One would hope though that they would actually tell the truth when doing so.  Using misinformation, exaggerations and out and out lies to further your way of thinking to your membership is bad, to do so with city officials is horrendous.  If this is a war, SPAR Council started it over a year ago when they elected to call code enforcement multiple times. Even when we were found to be legal. They never picked up a phone.

If you feel they have, then the most logical place to look would be thier Weekly

Newsletter, since this is how they communicate with all thier members.

Is it there? No.

What about the paper News Letter sent our every couple of months? Is it in there? No.

Actually, some of it is.  Perhaps when the failed to send them to me, a paid up member, they also forgot to send them to you? August 7th SPAR Speak is one that somehow didn’t make it to the front page of the website nor to my mail box.  Did it make it to yours?  Did you notice the lies about the overlay in it?

Hmmm......so if SPAR is trying to launch a massive smear campaign they aren't doing a very good job.....

working privately to achive thier goal, yes. a public smear campaign, no.

In politics, back rooms filled with heavy cigar smoke is a common theme.  A back room , behind the scenes smear campaign filled with lies and innuendo fits right in with the SPAR Council mentality.  Or did you forget that these same “innocent” few who we are “smearing” so badly have totally forgotten that they too are supposed to follow the laws.

while you could be doing the same thing, working with others behind the scenes to achive a goal, you instead attempt to make it as messy and loud as possible, repeatedly mistating the "issue" SPAR has with you. Purposely i suppose, to draw sympathy.

No misstating, or did you miss the e-mails, SPAR Speak quotes , copies of the by-laws, ETC that has gone along with all of the posts in the various threads over the past months?

do you think you've persuaded anyone?

Don’t know.  I would hope that some will read the truth and get it.  Others will not. 

I agree with most others in stating that the rehab homes you have now are fine. but we don't want new / additonal rehab homes/boarding houses.

that's the issue.

No, it isn’t.  No matter how you try to spin it, it is the people you don’t like in your neighborhood.  It isn’t the businesses, it isn’t even me and she clown (though we do seem to be the poster children of whom they do not like) it is the people themselves.  You do not like them, you do not trust them, perhaps you even fear them.

And we are not talking about a treatement facility nor a half way house nor even permissible and accepted by the overlay low density group care homes, we are talking about a simple rental.  With five unrelated adults living in it.  Who have as much right to be here, and if we go by some of the posters opinion of whom should be allowed in Springfield, then they may have even more right to be here than you do. Some of these guys, these transients who bring nothing good to Springfield, if you listen to some here, have been living in their HOMES for 2 years or more.  If SPAR Council had their way, they would be out of their HOMES and in the streets

especially since not all owners of such houses will run them as well as you do yours.

Thank you for the compliment. We are decent landlords.

Now as far as "finding a middle ground", my understanding is that this was done sometime ago. SPAR agreed not to pursue the issue any further, your existing rehab houses were fine, as long as you don't open new ones.

but that agreement went out the door when you found a way to open new ones legally. so the loophole is legal, but goes against the sentiment of the law when it was written.

Here we have an issue.  No one considers even the low density group care homes allowed in Springfield by the overlay, let alone a simple single family rental a special use, except of course for you and Dan and a few others along with SPAR Council. Go back and read the overlay, read the codes and learn what is right and wrong with your statements above. None of the actual Special Uses have expanded against any law or through any loophole.

well, that pisses some people off, understandabley. Not me personally, b/c i can't blame you for trying to take advantage of the loophole.....everyone tries to find loopholes in taxes, speeding, double coupons, etc. But when a loophole is revealed, don't be surpised when it's eventually addressed.

Well, how is that all working out for them? And you?

I've got a question. How much money do you stand to make or lose if the zoning/overlay law is changed?

I don't have a direct finanical interest in this, neither does SPAR. but you do, so i think it's a fair question to ask. what do you have to gain?

Actually, everyone has a financial interest in this and every issue in Jacksonville.