S.R. 16 Shands Bridge

[Doctor_K]

^ I'll bet the greater public have no clue about that.  Good point.

[stjr]

One other problem with sales taxes for infratructure....it can only be used for capital costs, not operations/maintenance.

So how do you fund the maintainenance on all the new/widened roads built with the sales tax?

Property taxes?  And don't forget all the attendant schools, utility and drainage infrastructure, additional public safety costs, etc.  That's how urban sprawl costs the taxpayers.  Ironically, some of the most antitax people I have met are the developers that benefit from this system.

[tufsu1]

so basically you are saying that we should fund operations of new roads through increased property tax revenues?

Based on that, I guess development caused by new/widened roads is a good thing.

[north miami]

We need an upgraded Bridge.The bridge is the tail wagging the dog.
The benefits of the proposed beltway are over promoted."Traffic" alleviation being the weakest claim but it doesn't matter- the northern Brannon Chaffee leg was erroneously but sucessfully promoted as "alleviation" for Blanding.Proponents have quietly made one step after another,including public work shops et al carefully monitored by an army of Planners & Consultants.The legally binding public  opportunity to demand"NO BUILD" quietly passed long ago.
Mayor John Delaney had a hand in the beltway...key D.O.T. Brannon Chaffee leg permit application before the water Management District and Corps of Enginneers was facing scrutiny- the DOT application premise was the B/C leg was stand alone with no plans for the controversial extension....and Delaney's letter of support broke the log jam.
I could go on for many pages.How many of you know of the thirty year history??
The result is the beltway will acommodate Orlando style sprawl in the name of 'growth management' and 'jobs'.
During the past couple of years "water wars" we have been furious over evil central Florida's over growth yet unaware of the unfolding yet unseen impacts in our own back yard....and that goes for most of the environmental community and RiverKeeper advocates please sit down...your organization was one of the worse in this matter during key early periods...as in blank stares.
Key 'drivers' behind the beltway in Clay county have been specific land owner entity.
We could name the beltway in honor of Reinhold/Jack Myers or the Chamber of Commerce.
Over St.Johns county way Randy Ringhaver once sent a letter out opposing the beltway-but the route was 'shifted' to skirt his property-that is why the projected roadway makes some twists and curves east of the bridge.
Note Denver's 'beltway' system has a long standing missing section on the northwest due to strident public concerns and opposition.
When officials are faced with opposition here their comment is to the effect;it's twenty years away.
the great 'conservative' First Coast ....where Miami begins!

[stjr]

so basically you are saying that we should fund operations of new roads through increased property tax revenues?

Based on that, I guess development caused by new/widened roads is a good thing.

Tufsu, you said sales taxes pay to build roads, not maintain them.  In Florida, that leaves property taxes as the main source for maintenance funds, correct?  The problem is that added property taxes don't appear to pay enough for BOTH the maintenance of roads and the services demanded by the new residents paying them.  As such, each new residence created under this model puts us further behind the "8" ball.  That's why "development caused by new/widened roads" is a BAD thing.

[CS Foltz]

stjr........at one time, here in Jacksonville,we had such a thing called "Concurrency" where the developer was required to pay a portion of the funds needed to enhance an area with water,sewer,power and roads. Some how under the guise of encourageing business this requirement was dropped. I still say that Daniel Davis had a hoof in that taking place but my point is it was removed. The good thing about it was that any developer had to shoulder some of the cost to put a development in..........of course it was not allways used were the development was at and sometimes used in other parts of Jacksonville but that was the way it was set up. Makes me wonder just what the North East Builders Association had to do with that?

[stjr]

stjr........at one time, here in Jacksonville,we had such a thing called "Concurrency" where the developer was required to pay a portion of the funds needed to enhance an area with water,sewer,power and roads. Some how under the guise of encourageing business this requirement was dropped. I still say that Daniel Davis had a hoof in that taking place but my point is it was removed. The good thing about it was that any developer had to shoulder some of the cost to put a development in..........of course it was not allways used were the development was at and sometimes used in other parts of Jacksonville but that was the way it was set up. Makes me wonder just what the North East Builders Association had to do with that?

CS, in my opinion, concurrency was just a token or down payment (lip service? a bone?) on the real cost of growth.  Proponents of better education funding have never seen payments toward schools in the name of concurrency.  How about public safety?  Lot's of "hidden costs" of growth developers and others don't want to talk about.  They wouldn't want anyone to know the real costs of urban sprawl.

[north miami]

The fact that the true costs of growth have not been profiled effectively to the public nor be part of state  is amazing.We can lay this at the feet of the 'environmental community" and I get to say that due to particular recent past qualifications.Instead we all fall in line with the mantra of "projections","inevitable growth" and an irrational idealism in defense of never ending 'growth'.

[tufsu1]

stjr........at one time, here in Jacksonville,we had such a thing called "Concurrency" where the developer was required to pay a portion of the funds needed to enhance an area with water,sewer,power and roads. Some how under the guise of encourageing business this requirement was dropped. I still say that Daniel Davis had a hoof in that taking place but my point is it was removed. The good thing about it was that any developer had to shoulder some of the cost to put a development in..........of course it was not allways used were the development was at and sometimes used in other parts of Jacksonville but that was the way it was set up. Makes me wonder just what the North East Builders Association had to do with that?

As I've stated on this site many times, concurrency still exists...nothing has changed.

All that happens in the state Legislature was the passage of SB 360, which takes away the state mandate for concurrency...local concurrency requirements, including those in Duval County, still exist!

[north miami]

SB 360 is cause for the demise of Crist popularity among many in the environmental community...even though some of them got tangled up in the forces to pass during the session.This is the untold story- why some enviros stepped back.
If SB 360 could have been done all over again as if by magic it would have-quickly.Can't put a happy face on it.
Any move to reduce any state/DCA oversight is suspect.

A primary feature of "Growth Management"  promotions whether state or local can be to relax ('sedate'?) the public.

[JaxBorn1962]

Tolls are DUMB they add to the Pollution Problem we have now. Put a 1 cent sales tax to pay for these needed roads.

Not true at all...in fact, most tolling is now via transponder (SunPass, EZPass, etc.) so there is very little slowing down..

In fact, one could argue that modern-day tolling helps reduce pollution in that it adds to the cost of driving, thereby yielding fewer trips.

Not everybody will have the (Sunpass, Ezpass, Etc Etc) so you still have to have the booth attendent take money from those without the pass. Go on the Florida Turnpike and see for yourself? Tolls are Dumb in 2009 and beyond!

[JaxBorn1962]

Tolls are DUMB they add to the Pollution Problem we have now. Put a 1 cent sales tax to pay for these needed roads.

Not true at all...in fact, most tolling is now via transponder (SunPass, EZPass, etc.) so there is very little slowing down..

In fact, one could argue that modern-day tolling helps reduce pollution in that it adds to the cost of driving, thereby yielding fewer trips.

[reednavy]

Is that your saying "Tolls are dumb"?

If you're no for tolls, then how do you expect some roads to be paid for. How do you think Orlando would be w/o toll roads? Matter of fact, what about all the other cities and states that have them?

If you're smart, you get a Sunpass or whatever, so you don't have to deal with the attendants. The newer toll plazas are reducing the number of attendant booths, as more people know that having the prepaid device is easier and allows for a smoother commute.

[tufsu1]

Not everybody will have the (Sunpass, Ezpass, Etc Etc) so you still have to have the booth attendent take money from those without the pass. Go on the Florida Turnpike and see for yourself? Tolls are Dumb in 2009 and beyond!

Or you could go to the Lee Roy Selmon Crosstown Expressway...try the reversible lanes....just make sure you have a SunPass first, because they only use open road tolling on those lanes!

[JaxBorn1962]

Is that your saying "Tolls are dumb"?

If you're no for tolls, then how do you expect some roads to be paid for. How do you think Orlando would be w/o toll roads? Matter of fact, what about all the other cities and states that have them?

If you're smart, you get a Sunpass or whatever, so you don't have to deal with the attendants. The newer toll plazas are reducing the number of attendant booths, as more people know that having the prepaid device is easier and allows for a smoother commute.

What is so HARD do you have BLINDERS ON we need a 1-2 cent SALES TAX IN DUVAL TO PAY FOR THE ROADS THAT COULD HAVE TOLLS ON THEM . Its that easy and if that road goes into Clay or St Johns have a 1-2 Cent sales tax there. Sure we would have to Vote on a Sales Tax and if that lost. Then the Old Dumb Toll Roads will be back, by this time gas will be $5.00 to $7.00 dollars a gallon in which not many people will be driving.