Skyway Merits Debated

[thelakelander]

for you railroad guys, the history of rail has just started on the History Channel.

[gatorback]

we don't watch cable it ruins the precious mind.  if you flip to PBS you can see Amber. woo

[Ocklawaha]

"A gondola system is not the answer to all transportation problems, but it is the answer to some."

A gondola system can carry up to 2,400 passengers per hour, equivalent to 60, 40-passenger buses, Woolwine said. In urban settings, gondolas are best for transporting very large groups a short distance, such as from a parking garage on the outskirts of a downtown to the heart of the city or from a parking garage to a stadium.

However, they may not be useful in an area of a city that does not have full buses and a demand for more, Woolwine said.

Electric-powered gondolas pollute less than gasoline-powered vehicles, eliminate the need for roadway expansions and are a safer mode of travel than the alternative. Still, Woolwine said, they do have limitations. Gondolas should not be used in heavy winds and require regular maintenance that involve shutting down the system for several days during the first five years and more often for longer periods as the system ages.

Medellin METRO-CABLE, leaving train station, over wild river, small flood plain and right up into the Andes.

We built one of these systems in Medellin, and currently are starting another and have plans for a couple more. The vehicles are quite comfortable, fully enclosed, AC/Heat. The Anchor Terminal is in the valley (City) along the river in the METRO ELECTRIC RAILWAY station. From there it goes "straight" up! As the valley narrows the burbs for many of the poor or working class are stacked up the sides of the Andes. Sidewalks are simple steps... miles and miles of steps. Picture San Francisco with hills in the two mile high range....Eeeouch.

I have to say as MASS TRANSIT, it isn't much with only 3,500 or so an hour (oh my, equal to our current Skyway trains) It doesn't get close to the 30,000 Passengers Per Hour Per Direction, "MAGIC NUMBER". In Medellin, Colombia (where I lived) the system serves many thousands of poor, with access to the little homes and apartments in nose bleed country. What about Jacksonville?




Rotunda or Turntable boarding area within the TICKETED area of the train station, no extra fare needed to climb the Andes.

I COULD see dedicated use for it in certain spots. Coming out of the Southbank in one of the new residential towers might be an idea, but you wouldn't want to mix the public transport aspects with restricted residential access.Coming off the Skyway station at Kings Avenue, Train platform level, I coulld see a match. Simply step off the Skyway cars and onto the rotunda or turntable and meet a parade of gondolas for downtown or stadium. I'd say The Jacksonville Landing, Hyatt/Convention Center, all would make good matches.

Cableways CAN serve more then point to point operations, intermediate stops are all doable. The biggest drawback is the speed is barely more then a walk. Heading out in a Que of 5-6 gondolas bunched up, then shifting to a faster rope as they pass certain tower points. So speed can vary somewhat. The biggest plus is the same thing! It's a slow, high and great way to see the City, the river/(s), Port, Skyline etc... It could even offer an alternative return along the Riverwalk. They don't compete well with trains, trolleys, buses, submarines, guided missles etc... But the unique footprint, views and abilities so give them a real shot at becoming as much an attraction as a reliever.




All within 100 feet of each-other in the Medellin Station... We call this Intermodal...
BTW JTA? No BRT at this stop, but plenty of buses, and cabs on the street level
long distance trains just over the wall behind the metro train, as the line comes back
we'll see some platform and other changes here for connectivity.


Lower elevation along Hogans Creek?

Riverwalk, two way

Rosa Parks to Shands through the parks?

Mayport Cruise Terminal - Hanna - Beachwalk Airline?

Zoo to freeway parking area, JTA park n ride...

Airport RAIL STATION to JIA Terminal

JTB Commuter Rail Station to Town Center - Mayo - Beaches - Office Parks.

We could do this, and leave ourselves with our very own "GOLDEN GATE" type landmark that would pull in more of those visitor dollars. Just for fun, it would also be solving some of our traffic troubles... Wonder if Stricklands at Mayport would have a stop.

Ocklawaha

[Coolyfett]

I swear to GOD sometimes Google is good for nothing!!

I have a question. When was the Skyway started as far as building?? Like the ground breaking year? Some places say 1980 some say 1984. I think it actually started running (please correct me if I'm wrong  ) in 1987 with the Westline. But I'm asking the actual year it was started on?

My next beef!!

What the fuck is up with the change machines?? I complain to the JTA guys all the time. They need to switch over to card reader man!!! First you got the change machine that is powered on but won't take your money! Then you have the machines that take your 50 cent and the turnstiles wont move!!! Who walks around with quarters?? I don't. Then you have the machines that you can't even get to because they are locked behind a gate @ 5:30 pm!!! Nobody wants to steal your frigging showbiz pizza change machine JTA..I mean I'll jump the turnstiles and I have many times, not because of me trying to cheat but because the shit don't work sometimes!! And I know if I'm doing it, others have to be doing it as well so.....How much money does JTA lose by not being on point with the way to pay the Skyway fare?

[stjr]

Out of curiosity I went to JTA's latest annual report (9/30/2008) and found that it reports the $ky-high-way had a NET OPERATING LOSS of $13,735,138, not the $7 million previously reported in the press and elsewhere. Operating Revenues were a paltry $357,123 from passengers and a total of $529,465 against massive operating expenses of $14,264,603.

Can someone explain why the big discrepancy?  If not, the reasons for dumping the $ky-high-way just doubled!!!

Also, as I suspected, JTA benefits are running a very rich 55% of the cost of labor.  My experience is this would typically be around 20 to 30% in the private sector.

No wonder JTA can't afford bus shelters.

By the way, we local taxpayers are giving JTA $54,650,113 in operations (not the road building sales taxes, etc, which are another almost $80 million) subsidies via our taxes to the City of Jacksonville.

I bolded the relevant numbers below but for the more curious and a lot more revelations about JTA's finances go to:  http://www.jtafla.com/pdf/Annual%20Report%20for%20the%20web.pdf

Statement of Revenue, Expenses and Changes in Fund Net Assets
Fiscal Year Ended September 30, 2008

Columns, in order: Bus ASE CTC Totals

Operating revenues:
Passenger $ 8,418,407 $ 357,123 $ 480,498 $ 9,256,028
Agency - - 7,251,730 7,251,730
Charter 243,343 - - 243,343
Auxilliary transportation 267,363 - - 267,363
Non-transportation 352,531 172,342 916 525,789

Total operating revenue 9,281,644 529,465 7,733,144 17,544,253

Operating expenses:
Labor 25,979,242 2,338,767 1,833,749 30,151,758
Fringe bene_ts 14,623,839 1,151,179 717,793 16,492,811
Materials and supplies 12,866,746 1,187,224 2,158,018 16,211,988
Services 15,998,001 802,013 7,423,521 24,223,535
Casualty and insurance 1,354,058 366,397 44,137 1,764,592
Taxes and licenses 136,870 - 2,095 138,965
Other 1,450,687 529,113 287,935 2,267,735
Depreciation expense 7,201,141 7,889,910 1,391,901 16,482,952

Total operating expenses 79,610,584 14,264,603 13,859,149 107,734,336

Operating loss (70,328,940) (13,735,138) (6,126,005) (90,190,083)

Nonoperating revenues
Public funding:
United States government 5,349,297 1,555,604 805,664 7,710,565
State of Florida 4,250,155 - - 4,250,155
City of Jacksonville 53,439,498 163,052 1,047,563 54,650,113
Other subsidies 137,670 - - 137,670
Investment earnings 139,993 334,986 14,098 489,077

Total nonoperating revenues 63,316,613 2,053,642 1,867,325 67,237,580

Loss before capital contributions
and transfers (7,012,327) (11,681,496) (4,258,680) (22,952,503)
Capital contributions 8,700,146 2,310,482 1,946,348 12,956,976
Transfers in 11,100,000 3,829,119 2,834,734 17,763,853
Transfers out (6,663,853) - - (6,663,853)

Change in net assets 6,123,966 (5,541,895) 522,402 1,104,473

Net assets, beginning of year, as restated 73,451,617 113,684,269 865,039 188,000,925
Net assets, end of year $ 79,575,583 $ 108,142,374 $ 1,387,441 $ 189,105,398

[CS Foltz]

stjr...........if your correct, we need to pull the plug now on that edifice Last that I had seen put the operating expenses for the $kyway at $7 Million per year so I guess I have to ask WTF!

[mtraininjax]

It would be far cheaper to use buses to move people between the Skyway stops than using the current Skyway system.

Actually each Skyway car would make a very nice artifical reef offshore.

[thelakelander]

Here's my quote in another thread:

If its going to left to rot, then lets go ahead and start planning to either take it down or convert the infrastructure into an elevated streetcar system (DT only because skyway infrastructure is there. The streetcar can run at-grade everywhere else).  Either way, the status quo on how we completely ignore the skyway needs to change.

[civil42806]

come on everyone knows if we just extend it a little further it will be a magnificent success!!

[Traveller]

It would be far cheaper to use buses to move people between the Skyway stops than using the current Skyway system.

I once read a statistic that it would be cheaper to use chauffeured limosines to move people between the Skyway stops than using the current Skyway system.

[Doctor_K]

come on everyone knows if we just extend it a little further it will be a magnificent success!!

Success as in, connecting actual destinations and thus increasing ridership (and practically any increase whatsoever would be a substantial improvement) because it actually goes somewhere useful?  Absolutely. 

[Doctor_K]

And let me further posit these musings on the subject:

Firstly, The Skyway system, be it ever so humble and incomplete, is something unique to Jacksonville.  Other cities have something similar, but not that many.  Therefore, if nothing else, it's a gimmick that should be embraced and lauded rather than disowned and demonized.

As such, love it or hate it, it's a distinct part of Jacksonville lore, culture, discussion, and history.  To tear it down would be removing yet another part of what's ostensibly a piece of uniquely Jacksonville history.  To call for its demolition and destruction is, at least in my opinion, analogous to championing the destruction of historic building stock. 

Is the Skyway as old and historic as those few building still standing?  Absolutely not.  But everything becomes 'historical' some day.  Destruction now versus later is still elimination of something very 'Jacksonville.'

[stjr]

Firstly, The Skyway system, be it ever so humble and incomplete, is something unique to Jacksonville.  Other cities have something similar, but not that many.  Therefore, if nothing else, it's a gimmick that should be embraced and lauded rather than disowned and demonized.

As such, love it or hate it, it's a distinct part of Jacksonville lore, culture, discussion, and history.  To tear it down would be removing yet another part of what's ostensibly a piece of uniquely Jacksonville history.  To call for its demolition and destruction is, at least in my opinion, analogous to championing the destruction of historic building stock. 

Is the Skyway as old and historic as those few building still standing?  Absolutely not.  But everything becomes 'historical' some day.  Destruction now versus later is still elimination of something very 'Jacksonville.'

$14 million a year could pay to restore a lot of real significant and truly historic structures.  Calling the $ky-high-way, which really is nothing more than a bunch of bland concrete sections fastened together, historic?  That's an insult to all the historic structures (and street cars) we have watched silently destroyed over these many decades.  What it may be, at best, is an "historic" monument to lousy decision making and a waste of millions in our taxpayer dollars.  It does serve to remind us, hopefully, to never let a folly like this happen again.  You are right about it being a "gimmick".  To me, that's a proposition that is misrepresented to be something it really isn't.

I give you credit with coming up with the most far out reason yet to save the thing.  I guess desperation is the mother of creativity.

[stjr]

Do the math:

$14 million/850 riders/day (that's 1,700 trips, 2 per rider) = $16,470/year subsidy PER RIDER.

You could buy each rider a car EVERY year for that money!

[JeffreyS]

It is still a big number but about 8 million of that is depreciation just written off not money laid out for operating.