Skyway Merits Debated

[stjr]

nah.... tufsu.  Its right up there with the courthouse and the post office.

If they cant turn a profit, then obviously get rid of them.

guess who does ride it...visitors and people attending conventions and trade shows at the Prime Osborn....so I would suggest keeping it if Jax. is at all interested in convention/tourism business.

Stephen, this isn't a question of turning a profit and I have made that clear from the beginning.  The question is how much should a subsidy be and does that subsidy detract from a subsidy elsewhere (e.g. street cars, commuter rail, bus shelters...) .  Too many people here seem to think money grows on trees and I am sorry to disappoint everyone, it doesn't.  We have to make CHOICES, you can't have it all.

For both you and Tufsu, the question is how much something COSTS versus how much it gives in BENEFIT.  Although I am not a proponent of road building our way out of transportation issues, I would venture to say there are, by a factor of a 100 (or even 100's) or more, users of Southside Blvd. for perhaps the same or less annual costs than the $ky-high-way.

Tufsu, if our visitors were looking of a Disney ride they would be in Orlando.  If you really want to accommodate visitors and conventions, put the $14 million a year into a convention center project.

Be careful what you ask for.

[Dapperdan]

Do you guys know that this system was almost fully built with federal money? I am pretty certain if we tear it down we would owe the feds all the money back.  I may email JTA about it, but I am almost certain that would be the case. You can't just tear down a  federally funded project like this. That would be like saying, we don't like 95 anymore. That land could be used for something else, so lets rip it up and claim all that land. Come on people, think a little.

[stjr]

stjr

how many more billions are we going to have to spend on road maintenance for sprawl.

No problem by me.  Take the billions for roads and spend it elsewhere.  What's your point?

Stephen, you are in denial.  You and Tufsu apparently could care less what the facts are about the $ky-high-way.  It could cost a trillion dollars and you would be mesmerized by its spell.  It is pointless to debate you in that mode.  I guess I just want to make sure unbiased others aren't swept up by your wishful thinking without at least knowing what the realities are.

[stjr]

Do you guys know that this system was almost fully built with federal money? I am pretty certain if we tear it down we would owe the feds all the money back.  I may email JTA about it, but I am almost certain that would be the case. You can't just tear down a federally funded project like this. That would be like saying, we don't like 95 anymore. That land could be used for something else, so lets rip it up and claim all that land. Come on people, think a little.

Dapper, if you check any of several previous $Ky-high-way boards on MJ, you will see we have discussed this issue several times.  Despite repeated requests from posters for documentation on charges that we would have to give money back to the Feds and can't fire the $ky-high-way employees, no one has produced a shred of specific evidence it's true.

And, as I have pointed out, this was an EXPERIMENTAL and/or DEMONSTRATION project that the Feds questioned from the very beginning.  (That's being kind.  It was really pork barrel.) So, given that it is an unmitigated failure, I don't think the Feds, if they even care, would mind us walking away from it.  Politically, I am sure we could pull it off.  The Feds should be grateful they didn't fund more of these in other cities beyond Jax, Detroit, and Miami.

[stjr]

stjr

Im not in denial.

We all have the same facts, but just have different conclusions.

I think the system should be expanded and finished, and that the city should bust its ass making the downtown so dense and populated that its necessary again.

thats all.

You've still never explained how you would build a transit bridge over the st john's. And that not the only fatal flaw in the grousing as far as I can see.

Love you my friend, just disagree.

OK, Stephen, let's kiss and make up.  I love you too, but, likewise, we do disagree. 

Regarding the bridge crossings, we have already covered that.  The Main Street and/or Acosta could be adapted for street cars.  Can't remember which, but I believe Ock and/or Lake have conceded that point even though they are in your camp.  Failing that, a bus running continuously over the bridge 24/7 would be a lot cheaper than $14 million.

I think the real question you and other $ky-high-way supporters need to answer is what should be the MAXIMUM SUBSIDY per ride for a mass transit rider.  And, if you can subsidize a street car, commuter rail, or bus rider for a fraction of the $ky-high-way subsidy, why wouldn't you want to substitute the more cost effective transit for the lesser one since you "ain't gonna get" money for all of it?

As to downtown density, that's been "coming" for over 30 years and was a premise then for justifying the $ky-high-way.   While we are far from it, your wished-for density will be supportive of all mass transit options, so it is not a factor in distinguishing the $ky-high-way from other more cost-effective mass transit options.

And, as I have noted, even though density has a long, long way to go, we do have more of it than 30 years ago, yet ridership on the $ky-high-way just keeps dropping.  Now, Tufsu says, it's not for residents, but visitors!  Really?  Where did that info come from?  I thought the reason we wanted a new convention center was because we don't have many Downtown visitors.  Regardless, I am skeptical that if locals can't figure out how to use the $ky-high-way, visitors are.   

Are there any more straws to grab?

[thelakelander]

This isn't anything new.  JTA and the city have left this thing to die.  With Saturdays being eliminated ridership is going to fall even more.  Regardless of how you may feel about it, this is unfortunate.  Completely ignoring the system, because its "taboo" to address, cost us more money and benefits no one.  

Lake, what's new is the costs keep escalating and the ridership keeps going down.

Isn't this really more common sense than "new"?  If you don't address what continues to negatively impact the system (ex. doesn't hit connect residents with origin and destination spots) and implement things (ex. higher fares, reduced service) that make it less end user friendly, ridership will drop.  Lower revenue + continued aging = high annual O&M costs.

The skyway's main problem (other than the bad rollout and route selection) is the topic is "taboo" and no one is willing to properly address the situation.  By ignoring it and walking on eggshells around the topic, things only get worse.  As long as we remain status quo on the skyway discussion, no one should expect it to do anything other but continue to drop in ridership and the cost on the taxpayer to increase.  Which means, we need to do something either way.  Address the negatives to make it more beneficial to the public or figure out how to convert the infrastructure into becoming a part of the proposed streetcar network.  As far as dismantling it, that's a silly and super expensive option that should not even be discussed.  That would really flush money down the drain.

[stjr]

If the $ky-high-way tracks can be used for street cars (seems a little odd, but I'll keep an open mind until I see more on it), I say let's go for it.

The "taboo" is that the $ky-high-way is the third rail for politicians.  Again, this is point I have been trying to make.  There isn't just limited FINANCIAL capital, but also limited POLITICAL capital.  Such capital needs to go toward a more cost-effective, greater serving mass transit solution than the $ky-high-way.  If you are going to be beholden to politicians, you have to appreciate their modus operandi.

[thelakelander]

If the $ky-high-way tracks can be used for street cars (seems a little odd, but I'll keep an open mind until I see more on it), I say let's go for it.

It would basically be an elevated portion of a larger rail system.

Blue Line LRT in Los Angeles

[cline]

Dapper, if you check any of several previous $Ky-high-way boards on MJ, you will see we have discussed this issue several times.  Despite repeated requests from posters for documentation on charges that we would have to give money back to the Feds and can't fire the $ky-high-way employees, no one has produced a shred of specific evidence it's true.

Perhaps you should talk to those in South Florida and see what the Feds said about cutting back Tri-Rail.  They will want their money back.

[thelakelander]

Feds want money back if Tri-Rail cuts service on Oct. 5
By Michael Turnbell | South Florida Sun-Sentinel
4:07 PM EDT, May 21, 2009

Ante up, Tri-Rail. The feds want their money back.


The Federal Transit Administration says it can hold the commuter train in default of a $256 million federal grant used to add a second track if Tri-Rail cuts service this fall as planned.

And don't count on getting any more federal money in the future.

"In the event of default, the FTA may demand all federal funds provided to (Tri-Rail) for the project be returned," said Yvette Taylor, the FTA's regional administrator in Atlanta.

Tri-Rail received the grant in exchange for promises to run 48 trains a day with rush-hour service every 20 minutes.

But Tri-Rail plans to drastically reduce service from 50 trains to 30 trains on weekdays starting Oct. 5 due to a cash crunch. All weekend and holiday service will be eliminated.

If no funding is found, Tri-Rail can survive another 18 months beyond October. After that, all service would end.

The 20-year-old commuter service's long quest for a dedicated funding source - a $2 tax on all rental cars in Broward, Palm Beach and Miami-Dade counties - went down in defeat in the Legislature earlier this month.

The $2 tax would have brought in $40 million or more, replacing funding that has been provided by the three county governments.

Budget negotiators declined to include a $30 million infusion to keep Tri-Rail running.

Tri-Rail's board of directors will hold a news conference Friday morning to talk about the train's dire financial situation.

The threatened service cuts come as Tri-Rail has broken numerous ridership records, putting it among the nation's fastest-growing commuter trains.

Michael Turnbell can be reached at mturnbell@sunsentinel.com, 954-356-4155 or 561-243-6550.

[stjr]

Perhaps you should talk to those in South Florida and see what the Feds said about cutting back Tri-Rail.  They will want their money back.

I am not familiar with the Tri-rail details, but my impression is this a different project on a much grander scale and is a lot newer.  At some point, even if such a provision exist, it must expire.  Nothing is guaranteed indefinitely.

I would like to see Washington tell all those South Florida voters to give that kind of money back.  They may have a legal right, but I doubt they have the political fortitude.  

Is there any significant example anyone knows of where the Feds actually demanded, enforced, and received a payback on an abandoned project?

I think this may just be an idle threat.

Add-on: Just saw Lake's post.  It will be interesting to see how this plays out.  Is it just posturing or will the Feds call in their chips?  Also, if South Florida still closes it, maybe they think a payback is cheaper than operating it.  Or, they don't have any money regardless, and the Feds can't bleed blood from a turnip?  See what happens.  Thanks for posting it.

[tufsu1]

If you really want to accommodate visitors and conventions, put the $14 million a year into a convention center project.

Stop with the misleading information....its $7 million per year for operations and another $7 million for depreciation.

Oddly enough all facilities, including a convention center, would need to account for depreciation.

[stjr]

Stop with the misleading information....its $7 million per year for operations and another $7 million for depreciation.

Oddly enough all facilities, including a convention center, would need to account for depreciation.

Tufsu, depreciation is a valid operating expense.  First, you ignore it for the $ky-high-way and then concede its required everywhere.  That's not a consistent argument.

Ask any CPA.  Ask the JTA's accountants.  It's GAAP, required by the SEC and all other regulatory agencies demanding an accounting of activities.  You can't get audited statements without it.  Even the IRS accepts it, and they don't exactly give up unjustified breaks 

JTA's report states "Operating Losses".  It's there in black and white: $14 million rounded. 

Wear and tear and obsolescence of the original investment is money out the door.  A real cost of doing business.  Why do you not get that?

[tufsu1]

Here's the problem with your theory STJR....let's say the Skyway broke even on pure operations and maintenance (which no transportation system does btw)....you would still argue it lost money because of depreciation.

[stjr]

Here's the problem with your theory STJR....let's say the Skyway broke even on pure operations and maintenance (which no transportation system does btw)....you would still argue it lost money because of depreciation.

its misleading.

Well Stjr.  Im looking for you to start forty two more posts on the need to pull up southside boulevard and the jail.

Those money losers are way huger than the unfinished skyway.

Guys, you are circling back around.  I am getting off this treadmill for now.  Reread my posts.  If you are open, you will get my points.  If your minds are closed, there is no point in carrying on.  No disrespect, I just have to move on.  See ya' later.