High Speed Rail: A No-Brainer

[Ocklawaha]

61,758 Passengers a year board AMTRAK in Jacksonville, (with only two trains) which is FOURTH behind, 1. Sanford, 2. Orlando, 3. Tampa, 4. Miami, in that order. A national system that has survived hand to mouth for 35+ years, on less then the American taxpayers invested in the Denver Airport. Our Amshack is far from downtown.

6.3 Million a year board aircraft at JIA on 200 flights, if we funded air like we do rail, consider that on the average of just two flights daily, our airport numbers would be 63,000 a year. What does this tell you about the supposed attraction of fast air service next to regular Amtrak trains? Point to point, when all things are calculated, the train is JUST AS POPULAR as the plane! Our airport is far from downtown.

180,000 Cruise passengers a year, board in Jacksonville. Again, a very limited service schedule, and poor temporary infrastructure. Our cruise port is far from downtown.

From 1919, until 1971, the railroads averaged 15,000,000 million passengers a year at Jacksonville Terminal, in downtown! Does anyone else see a problem here?

Now these High Speed Rail numbers based on nothing but sprawl speculation, because the system misses every urban area except for Tampa, and it's hardly a LRT system for them. Don't worry though Jax, they have us in "Phase Two", where they plan to "enhance Amtrak service" to Jacksonville. Based on this history, that probably translates into the Florida East Coast train, and a new coat of paint for the Amshack.

OCKLAWAHA

[tufsu1]

Editorial from the SP Times...it gives a pretty persuasive argument as to why SunRail, TriRail, Amtrak/FEC, and HSR do rlate to each other.

http://www.tampabay.com/opinion/editorials/leadership-lacking-on-high-speed-rail/1042887

[tufsu1]

An one more...this is an in-depth piece on the Lake Nona Biotech Cluster, which is adjecent to OIA

http://www.floridatrend.com/article.asp?page=1&aID=51804

[Ocklawaha]

Editorial from the SP Times...it gives a pretty persuasive argument as to why SunRail, TriRail, Amtrak/FEC, and HSR do rlate to each other.

http://www.tampabay.com/opinion/editorials/leadership-lacking-on-high-speed-rail/1042887

The bone that is being tossed at Jacksonville, is about 4 routes too small. The HSR long range vision map still shows a HSR mainline from Tampa to LAKE CITY, via Ocala and Gainesville. No real in depth relationship to Amtrak or commuter rail, there either. The Amtrak alignment between Tampa and Orlando, cuts right through the heart of every community while the HSR plan misses all of them. As I've said before, this will only result in places like Lakeland, Kissimmee, Haines City, building north to reach the MMHSR trains.

If our rail commitment is so strong, why has Florida allowed Amtrak to cut us from about 12/14 trains daily to just two trains. Worse still, we haven't exactly pushed to reestablish rail to Waldo - (Gainesville) - Ocala - Leesburg or Waldo. Ocala - Leesburg - Tavares - Orlando, is a very logical route, but GW cut the budget so severely that Amtrak dropped service to the central highlands of Florida. Why did the state sit on it's hands and allow CSX to rip out the Auburndale - Wildwood segment, which was the direct link between North Central Florida and Southeast Florida. The way the maps are drawn, we're about to write off not only north central Florida, as well as every town between Auburndale and West Palm Beach.

Our leadership is clueless on how to create a passenger network, and less so on how to fund it. If Florida, was doing ANYTHING but trying to grab 2.5 Billion dollars in stimulus money for a poorly planned Mickey Mouse express. We might have a shot, but Tallahassee, needs to spend some serious time in North Carolina, Virginia, California, Oregon and Washington. Rather they seem perfectly content to open the Florida East Coast route, while shutting down the Jacksonville-Orlando, route, as well as Auburndale - West Palm, and Jacksonville - Ocala - Tampa, and even Tri-Rail. They don't come much more thick headed then FDOT.

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

It would have been nice to do it in and around the Parramore/Citrus Bowl/old magic arena area between DT and OBT.  It could have really anchored a part of Orlando's urban core in need of an economic stimulus.  Oh well....

[tufsu1]

You know, tufsu, this isnt all theory.  Close doesnt count when people are having to rely on their homes and livelihoods.   Connect means it goes to.  Not near.  Not within telescope distance.  Not two transit changes away, but connects to.

I assume you think buidling commuter rail along with moving Amtrak back into the Prime Osborn is a good idea...but how many people live and work there?

Again I reiterate, transportation is all about connections!

So, in the case of Lake Nona...it means an HSR stop at the airport with local circulator shuttles to/through the community....no different than hopping on an airport shuttle to get to rental cars or remote parking.

[tufsu1]

Within two miles? 80 thousand people.

sure..but very few live/work on-site...so they would still need to use some other mode of transportation to get to their final destination right?

[JeffreyS]

The Prime Osborn already has downtown circulator{skyway} connected.

[FayeforCure]

You know, tufsu, this isnt all theory.  Close doesnt count when people are having to rely on their homes and livelihoods.   Connect means it goes to.  Not near.  Not within telescope distance.  Not two transit changes away, but connects to.

I assume you think buidling commuter rail along with moving Amtrak back into the Prime Osborn is a good idea...but how many people live and work there?

Again I reiterate, transportation is all about connections!

So, in the case of Lake Nona...it means an HSR stop at the airport with local circulator shuttles to/through the community....no different than hopping on an airport shuttle to get to rental cars or remote parking.

I completely agree. Stephen seems to have a misplaced idea that HSR should connect directly to a hub of innovation.

That is rarely the case.

What the ScienceProgress article was making the case for is the fact that one type of innovation (HSR) can spur and promote other types of innovation in the vacinity. I think shuttle use to and from Lake Nona to HSR is perfectly feasible.

It's Big Picture thinking that not everyone here seems ready for.

[thelakelander]

You know, tufsu, this isnt all theory.  Close doesnt count when people are having to rely on their homes and livelihoods.   Connect means it goes to.  Not near.  Not within telescope distance.  Not two transit changes away, but connects to.

I assume you think buidling commuter rail along with moving Amtrak back into the Prime Osborn is a good idea...but how many people live and work there?

Again I reiterate, transportation is all about connections!

So, in the case of Lake Nona...it means an HSR stop at the airport with local circulator shuttles to/through the community....no different than hopping on an airport shuttle to get to rental cars or remote parking.

I completely agree. Stephen seems to have a misplaced idea that HSR should connect directly to a hub of innovation.

That is rarely the case.

What the ScienceProgress article was making the case for is the fact that one type of innovation (HSR) can spur and promote other types of innovation in the vacinity. I think shuttle use to and from Lake Nona to HSR is perfectly feasible.

It's Big Picture thinking that not everyone here seems ready for.

Couldn't the same thing be done for Sunrail?  Both are a good bus ride (assuming there is a bus connection in the future with Lake Nona) away.  In any event, its better to directly hit your major activity centers with transit, especially the dense clusters.  Although adjacent to Five Points, Springfield, Riverside Avenue, San Marco Square and the Sports District, the skyway struggles to attract riders even though its integrated with PCTs to provide the final leg of the trip to a few of these locations.  If it were built in a way that provided a direct "walkable" link to these destinations, it would not struggle to attract riders.

[thelakelander]

Lake Nona won't be that type of cluster.  If it were in Metro Boston, it would somewhere out near Foxboro.  Lake Nona is sprawl although it's a better use of the land than the stuff that has gone up around the GreeneWay in the last decade or so.  USF Poly, is also sprawl.  If these projects are successful, they'll pull new development further away from the established core of their communities.  To compare them to Jax, these centers would represent our Southpoint/Deerwood Park/Tinseltown/UNF corridor or Nocatee.

[tufsu1]

here is the type of cluster envisioned by the article:

nice try but somewhat wrong....one of the major hi-tech clusters in this country is on SR 128 in Massachusetts....its kind of a western beltway for Boston.

Whether right or wrong, many of these types of industries prefer to be on a suburban campus...just look at Silicon Valley, much of the DC beltway baron companies, Atlanta's perimiter, and Scripps in CA (La Jolla is 15 miles from downtown San Diego) and FL.

Nevertheless, looking at the graphic above, you will not that this is about a 5 square mile area....high speed rail in this case would likely come into North Station...and then folks would TRANSFER to the "T" to get to their detination.

[JeffreyS]

Stephen I agree we should as a State try to capitalize on connecting to the SEHSR. Just choosing the where your first day will have the most riders is not long term thinking. Adding each block onto a larger than the State system seems like more of a rational growth pattern. I like the idea of HSR but this State already has plenty of ROW that Amtrak could use to give us a statewide system that would provide the upgrades and locations to grow commuter systems in all of Florida's markets.

[tufsu1]

What you left out of your  cursory 'analysis' (in a scientific way, im sure) was that the benefits described by the Florida Study you referred to were actually talking about the benefits of the full 425 mile tri city HSR which was voted down, and is not the project you are describing.

Again, somewhat misleading...if you use that logic, then we voted down the whole system.

in 2000, FL voters approved HSR connecting the 5 largest urban areas....that was interpretedf at the time to mean Tampa Bay, Orlando, West Palm, Ft. Lauderdale, and Miami (although one could put Ft. Lauderdale/Miami together which would make Jax. next on the list).

Then, following a poo poo campaign by Gov. Bush about it bankrupting our state, FL voters repealed the constitutional amendment in 2004....but the high speed rail authority (also part of the 2000 amednment) was never repealed.

[tufsu1]

TUFSU.  Would you please bother reading the actual post?

Just this once?

In the post.  You will find the rationale for increased mass transit (NOT HSR, as Faye attempted to pawn off) for clusters.

I did...guess I just see things differently than you....for me, any means of transporrtation that is available to the public for groups of people (i.e., rail, ferries, planes) is mass transit!