What's Disney willing to do for high-speed rail?

[thelakelander]

Very interesting article.  I thought Disney had already committed to forcing most of their airport guest to use HSR to get to their property.  Apparently, they changed their mind?

By Dan Tracy and Jason Garcia

Sentinel Staff Writers

C.C. "Doc" Dockery, the retired Lakeland insurance magnate who has championed high-speed rail in Florida for decades, was ecstatic when he learned Walt Disney World was offering free land for a station if the train gets the go-ahead.

"What a marvelous opportunity," said Dockery, who added that the marketing muscle of Disney could bring countless riders to the system that also would link Orlando International Airport with International Drive, Lakeland and Tampa.

But whether Disney will do anything to get its millions of customers to actually ride the train is unclear.

Disney officials are mum about their intentions, telling the Orlando Sentinel only that "it's premature to speculate on the details surrounding high-speed rail" because no one knows whether it will be built.

And the state Department of Transportation, which is overseeing the high-speed-rail effort, is far from sure what Disney will do.

"We haven't had a serious dialogue with them. We haven't gotten that far," said DOT Assistant Secretary Kevin Thibault.

Industry analysts say it is unlikely Disney would steer guests toward the train because it could conflict with its shuttle and luggage service at OIA known as Disney's Magical Express.

The complimentary program, available to guests staying in Disney World hotels, ferries more than 2.2million people a year between the airport and the giant resort.


Buses: Disney 'edge'

Since it was launched four years ago, Magical Express has become an integral part of Disney's strategy to get vacationers to spend all of their time â€" and money â€" on company property.

It helps lure people to Disney's own hotels and makes it less likely they will leave the resort at any time during their vacations.

Magical Express "is a big deal for them, and it should continue to be," said Steve Baker, who runs Baker Leisure Group in Orlando. "It gives them a competitive edge when people are deciding where to stay."

What's more, through Magical Express, Disney can oversee its guests' vacations almost from the moment they step off a plane in Orlando.

"I think it's important for them to control the experience. They feel like they do it different and better than other people," said Jerry Aldrich, president of Amusement Industry Consulting in Orlando.

Back in 2003, Disney had an informal arrangement with the state to provide a stop for a proposed high-speed train from Orlando to Tampa. Disney, which had a less-ambitious shuttle and bus arrangement for OIA passengers then, promised to move its visitors on to the train, even including passes in its standard vacation packages.

They have made no such vow this time. Instead, Disney says the train would "complement" Magical Express.


'Incredibly popular'

"Our Disney's Magical Express Service, which was introduced in 2005, has been incredibly popular with our guests," Disney spokeswoman Zoraya Suarez said. "Based on this feedback, it is important that we continue to offer our guests a direct connection between the airport and Walt Disney World Resort."

As long as Disney continues to run the shuttle service, analysts say it is unlikely that many of those riders would shift over to high-speed rail.

For one thing, Disney offers Magical Express for "free" â€" the cost is rolled into the regular hotel-room rate â€" whereas customers might have to pay for a high-speed-rail ticket.

Trains also aren't usually conducive to traveling families, who often are shepherding children and luggage, Aldrich said.

"Typically," he said, "trains are high-speed, and they move you from one point to another, and maybe you have a briefcase or something small."

Thibault said the state could negotiate any number of options with Disney, including offering an express route straight from OIA to the attraction depot.

It also could discuss costs, possibly undercutting the expenses of the Magical Express, although Thibault said he had no idea what Disney spends on the service.

"That's part of the discussions we'll have," he said.

Disney has made one big concession with the train by agreeing to a stop by International Drive and the Orange County Convention Center, where there are thousands of hotel rooms owned by rivals.

The attraction previously balked at an I-Drive station. A spokeswoman said the reluctance was more about fear that a high-speed train could interfere with the operation of a planned commuter system than worries about the competition.

High-speed rail, in fact, is supposed to work in tandem with a planned commuter train called SunRail that would run from DeLand in Volusia County through downtown Orlando to Poinciana in Osceola County.


Running by 2014?

The state, in its $2.5billion application for federal funding for the high-speed train, does not count on picking up any passengers with Disney or I-Drive stops. They put the potential ridership at 1.9million to 2.2million. The I-Drive stop could add 530,000, while Disney could go from none to 2.2million.

The state has applied for federal stimulus money to pay for the train. Federal officials received nearly 300 pre-applications seeking more than $100 billion from a fund holding only $8billion. Winners could be announced by the end of the year. Florida could start construction within 14 months, with operations beginning late in 2014.

But even if the train does get on track, it might not have many Disney guests on board.

"My gut is, Disney will do what they can" to support the train, Baker said. "But they'll take care of Magical Express first."

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/florida/orl-asechigh-speed-disney-101109101109oct11,0,7927399.story

[tufsu1]

yes and no...they always said they wouldn't put their visitors on trains if it was decided that the route would go to I-Drive/Convention Center area....what thy did just agree to was at least having a station at Disney

[Ocklawaha]

Wow let's build this railroad if Disney agrees to give us their 2 million "Magic Express Riders," Faye has told us that would do the job to make this a showcase project.

Just a bit of digging would reveal that our two lousy, slow, conventional Amtrak trains carry a million a year as is. So isn't this an exercise in blowing 2.5 Billion to give Disney a choice of which Magic Express it's customers want to use? If we spent half of this on Amtrak Florida, we could create corridor train service over much of the State. Reminds me of the Gang Who Couldn't Spend Straight!

OCKLAWAHA

[tufsu1]

not really Ock...if it was, then the HSR Authority would have caved to Disney's demands and run the line down the Greeneway into the back of OIA....instead they chose the I-4/Beachline route

[CS Foltz]

I would forget Mouseville for anything! If they want a rail system then let them pay for it. HSR is not nor should it be a feeder system for the World of Mouse! If they were willing to pay, as in a public/private enterprise, that would be one thing but so far I have not seen nor heard anything from Mouse Central. LR in the Orlando area appears to be something that will take place and best of luck to them........at least their government has some vision and a plan which is more than I can say about Jacksonville!

[tufsu1]

HSR will be a public/privatepartnership...the intent is that govt. would build it and then a private company would lease and operate the system.

[Ocklawaha]

HSR will be a public/privatepartnership...the intent is that govt. would build it and then a private company would lease and operate the system.

A model we should be using locally for our Streetcar and perhaps our Skyway too, since JTA has to play both offense and defense in the same game.

Realizing of course that you have an interest in the HSR project, I still cannot support this plan until it truly serves all of Central Florida, by going through the communities the people live in. To call this anti-sprawl, and then lay the tracks 10 miles north of town is speaking out of both ends! As one who has lived many years in the Orlando-Sanford-Lake Mary-Deltona areas, NOBODY is going to drive to OIA to ride a train to Lakeland. WON'T HAPPEN! If OIA had a location like JIA, that is freeway close, and $ friendly, maybe, but out in BFE, WON'T - as in - WILL NOT HAPPEN!

OCKLAWAHA

[CS Foltz]

I don't have a problem with a public/private enterprise as long as it does what it is supposed to do! Any system that is useable by local people and has HSR capability would help..........of course it needs to travel where the people are rather than bypassing or else have feeders to get to HSR hub point/station. We need to do something soon or all will be lost!

[tufsu1]

Realizing of course that you have an interest in the HSR project, I still cannot support this plan until it truly serves all of Central Florida, by going through the communities the people live in. To call this anti-sprawl, and then lay the tracks 10 miles north of town is speaking out of both ends! As one who has lived many years in the Orlando-Sanford-Lake Mary-Deltona areas, NOBODY is going to drive to OIA to ride a train to Lakeland. WON'T HAPPEN! If OIA had a location like JIA, that is freeway close, and $ friendly, maybe, but out in BFE, WON'T - as in - WILL NOT HAPPEN!

OCKLAWAHA

I don't exactly have an interest in HSR...I actually think the money would be much better spent on commutre rail and Amtrak vs. a new line down I-4....but I do want the statemenets being made to be accurate.

And in the interest of facts....OIA is hardly in the middle of nowhere anymore...it is adjacent to the Beachline Expwy. and SR 436...especially as Orlando continues to grow/sprawl out to the east (look at the UCF area on an aerial).

That said, you are correct that people travelling from Sanford to Lakeland won't likely use HSR....but what about people flying into OIA who will be visiting the area...or what about folks in Lakeland who are flying out of OIA for a trip?

[thelakelander]

From Lakeland, I'm just as likely to fly out of Tampa. Tampa's terminal is easier to get in and out of, fares are identical and the drive is shorter.   Nevertheless, its roughly a 45 minute drive to Orlando's airport.  If flying for a couple of days, you can leave the car at a long term economy lot for $5 or $6/day.  I say this because, if you are traveling with a family of four, its more economical to drive than to pay up to $60/ticket roundtrip.  In addition, if the Lakeland station is USF Poly, I've already fought through congestion in Lakeland (ex. Florida Avenue, Memorial Blvd, etc.) and have been on I-4 for 10 minutes or so.  At this point, its clear sailing.  With this in mind, I would not expect significant Lakeland traffic to be using this rail line to get to Orlando's airport.  While the business community could possibly use it, they are also just as likely to fly out of Tampa since its closer.

I also would not expect the rest of Polk County's population to use the line to get to Orlando.  Every other significant Polk County city resident would have to go several miles west (opposite direction with no direct route to USF Poly) to get to Lakeland to then go east.  It would be more time efficient to just take US 27 to I-4 and the GreeneWay and pocket the extra couple of hundred bucks (assuming more than one person is catching a flight).

[tufsu1]

Here's a good article on the big picture of HSR in America

http://citiwire.net/post/1391/

[JeffreyS]

Great Article.

[Captain Zissou]

^ I liked the article, but it just reiterates what people here already know and believe. It does bring in some staggering numbers for the indirect cost of a car centered economy.  It's strange to me that a society that went absolutely bonkers over the "green" movement would reject rail transit so stubbornly.  

[Ocklawaha]

The whole problem with the MMHSR plan, is they only plan to join the very edge of one urban area, from a station that is more trouble to get to then its worth, to a expressway interchange in Tampa.

1. The plan completely ignores local traffic

2. The stations are badly placed

3. Unlike most rail projects, this one fails to pierce a single metropolitan area.

4. Trying to jump start rail in Florida by going from one train a day, Orlando - Tampa, to 22 trains
    isn't going to work.

5. One of the original plans called for running through Orlando to Sanford, and hence on to the   
    coast. The effect would be to serve the people that live in the area, as well as picking up
    access to Amtrak and Auto-Train at Sanford, including the Sanford Shop complex, the former
    diesel shops and the now silent Rand Railroad Yard. This plan made some sense and is off the   
    table.

6. Not unlike the JTA BRT project, people are accustomed to the schedules today, one bus every
    45 minutes. No amount of magic investment to bring that up to one bus every 10 minutes is
    going to fill seats. As Lake says "lipstick on a pig, it's still a pig". This is the same Florida - think
    going into this sudden urge for a flying Mickey Train.

7. Anyone want to bet me that if it is finished, Disney will continue to look out for number one rat,
    and HSR will be left to it's own devices? I wouldn't take that bet if I were you.

8. Anytime one of us brings up that it won't connect to anything, 3 or 4 speak up that it will cause
    connections to happen. FAT CHANCE! This is Florida, does anyone know how long our Amshack
    sat out in the Northwest side, between two junkyards and under a highway overpass, before
    the first JTA bus stopped there? Yeah, don't ask... "FLORIDA THE TRANSIT STATE..."

OCKLAWAHA

[CS Foltz]

This really appears to me to be not thought out completely, thoroughly or designed with any end mission in mind! The Mouse could care less unless Sunrail or HSR just happened to stop at Mouse Central somewhere along the proposed route and I have to ask why? If they don't want HSR............that's just fine with me, but put it where it will do the most good for the less cost! I mean gee...........get another study going.....got lots of consultants out there that would be more than happy to slant the results in the direction of whoever is paying right? Let the Mouse build their own railroad.....lets build a system we all can use, not just a very select few!