High Speed Rail: A No-Brainer

[JeffreyS]

What speeds are we hoping for on the FEC line?

[fsujax]

up to 90 m.p.h.

[thelakelander]

Ock...careful what you say....sometimes costs and users (which should not be a major measure) don't line up very well.

The Amtrak on FEC line is expected to cost over $700 million with all upgrades....and is projected to carry 910,000 passengers a year in its tenth year of operations (after all upgrades)....that amounts to less than 2500 passengers per day.

Clearly the Outer beltway and SR 9B will have a better cost/user ratio!

I've heard that Tri-rail may be looking to piggy back Amtrak's improvements to extend their service along the FEC.  In addition, if Jax is smart, we'll do the same thing.  The addition of two commuter rail corridors along this line will lead to a better cost/user ratio for the investment.

[JeffreyS]

Hopefully several communities along the Florida east coast will use Amtrak to jump start transit efforts. Jacksonville needs to take advantage of this.

[FayeforCure]

wonder if Sen. Dockery got the message?

Here is what she says:

September 15th, 2009 03:47pm
Dockery Says No Change From SunRail Supporters
by admin


State Sen. Paula Dockery mailed a report to fellow senators recently saying basically that the supporters of an Orlando commuter rail, which she helped defeat because of the liability clause, and the Florida Department of Transportation, which participated in secret negotiations with CSX Transportation haven’t changed their ways.

The FDOT, which at times during the last legislative session seemed to be lobbying for the private corporation and the Orange County businessmen who stand to gain from the commuter rail have not backed down from wanting the taxpayers to be liable for accidents and damages that the rail company may cause to the general public.

In her letter, she states, “as a courtesy to Orlando Mayor Buddy Dyer, I met with him and other SunRail proponents for a brief presentation and tour of the proposed commuter-rail project.”

The visit apparently did nothing to dissuade her belief that the commuter rail has little to do with moving passengers to their jobs.

“While the meeting was friendly and informative, what I saw was largely their desire for extensive redevelopment along the rail corridor,” she said. “What I didn’t see was any movement by the Florida Department of Transportation toward renegotiating the terrible terms of this deal with CSX Transportation.”

After reading her letter, can someone please tell the FDOT that it is a state agency? The most memorable e-mail statement from all the boxes of documents on SunRail obtained by Dockery was from a FDOT employee to a CSX consultant calling a Federal Transit Administration official “nasty.”

Dockery said she is still wary of any special session that could be held in October to ratify a gambling compact with the Seminole Tribe. The commuter rail people could still try to slip SunRail in.

http://polkpolitics.blogs.theledger.com/10003/dockery-says-no-change-from-sunrail-supporters/

[thelakelander]

I wonder if her tone will change after yesterday's bomb from LaHood or she is willing to kiss her husband's toy goodbye?

[tufsu1]

Paula needs to figure out that if she doesn't get behind SunRail, she'll have herself to blame for killing her husband's HSR dreams!

[FayeforCure]

I still feel that since this project was initiated during the boom days of Florida, and the ridership numbers are rather low, that the real reason for Sunrail was to promote extensive redevelopment along the rail corridor in order to create ridership.

Is it primarily a developers bonanza rather than a people mover system?

Also I believe Florida was still flush with revenue, so the CSX deal didn't get the proper scrutiny, and there was heavy resistance to any modification. In addition I wonder if the counties are still that willing to come up with their share of the funding, with their own recessionary financial troubles to deal with.

[JeffreyS]

I wonder if LaHood hurt Florida's bargaining position with CSX.

[thelakelander]

Things are becoming quite simple for Florida.  No Sunrail, no HSR, no Amtrak/FEC.  Its all or nothing as far as the Feds are concerned.

[tufsu1]

I still feel that since this project was initiated during the boom days of Florida, and the ridership numbers are rather low, that the real reason for Sunrail was to promote extensive redevelopment along the rail corridor in order to create ridership.

Is it primarily a developers bonanza rather than a people mover system?

nope...the original purpose of the project was to provide a transportation alternative while I-4 is under construction for many years (scheduled to begin around  2012)....Tri-Rail got started the same way (as an alternative to I-95 construction)

[FayeforCure]

I wonder if LaHood hurt Florida's bargaining position with CSX.

I agree. The Sunrail at any cost folks, for sure will be salivating at the supposed LaHood ultimatum. Thoigh I am still not sure that LaHood mentioned Sunrail specifically, I wonder if LaHood and Mica, who are fellow Republicans owe each other some favors:

Congressmen Back LaHood In Dispute Over VMT Comment
By McNally, Sean
Publication: Transport Topics
Date: Monday, March 2 2009

You are viewing page 1
ARLINGTON, Va. - Con- gressional leaders from both parties last week defended Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood after a spokesman for President Obama rebuffed LaHood's suggestion that the government might use a vehicle miles-traveled tax to finance highways.

The Democratic chairman and ranking Republican ( John Mica) on the House transportation committee as well as the chairman of the House Appropriations transportation subcommittee all said that the White House rebuke of LaHood, an Illinois Republican, was unfair and that VMT ( vehicle miles tax) should be considered as a serious alternative to fuel taxes.

The issue concerning VMT flared up Feb. 20 after a LaHood interview with The Associated Press in which the former congressman, who served 14 years in the House from 1995 to Jan. 3, said the government "should look" at a tax on the number of miles that vehicles travel.

White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs, asked if Obama had weighed in on the concept, said the president had not done so but that VMT "is not and will not be the policy of the Obama administration."

http://www.allbusiness.com/government/government-bodies-offices-legislative/11820503-1.html


Here is a really good article explaining what went wrong with Sunrail. We'd do well to either fix those issues or turn to a better conceived LRT system for Orlando:

6/25/2009         

News

Rail is dead. Long live rail
Why SunRail's demise isn't a bad thing   

By Jeffrey C. Billman

Barring an 11th-hour reprieve, on June 30 the state’s deal with CSX for a 61.5-mile, $600 million-plus commuter rail line between DeLand and Poinciana will officially go the way of the dinosaur. With it goes the aspirations and spent political capital of the legion of lawmakers who spent years pushing for SunRail â€" especially Orlando Mayor Buddy and U.S. Rep. John Mica, a Republican who has spent decades in Washington securing federal money for mass transit, only to watch the locals screw it up.

In the end, SunRail drowned in a toxic stew of Tallahassee political machinations, parochialism and a recession that sucked the life out of most big-ticket items (save Dyer’s venues, of course). After losing a climactic vote in the state Senate in May, dejected SunRail supporters threw a temper tantrum that any toddler would admire. Orlando city commissioner Patty Sheehan blamed the “knuckle-dragging Neanderthals” in the state Legislature.

“I think the forces of evil have won,” Dyer added. Perhaps there’s truth to the idea that conservatives’ knee-jerk opposition to spending on infrastructure improvements doomed SunRail. But if SunRail’s supporters want someone to blame, they should find a mirror.

SunRail’s many shortcomings are rooted in this simple fact: After the collapse of light rail almost a decade ago, our leaders were so desperate to get something done that they gave away the store (not unlike the new arena deal with the Orlando Magic, one could argue). The deal as presently conceived is a boondoggle, a corporate giveaway, an expensively ill-conceived effort that will subsidize exurban sprawl and do little to take cars off I-4.

We can do better. SunRail’s demise affords us that opportunity.

Back in 2006, the state’s Department of Transportation agreed to pay CSX $432 million for 61.5 miles of track. FDOT planned to invest another $173 million in improvement. According to critics, the cumulative capital investment of $615 million â€" $10 million per mile â€" makes this the most expensive rail purchase in U.S. history. Mica promised that the feds would pick up half, with the state and local governments splitting the rest. In turn, the state would lease the track back to CSX for off-hour freight runs at a fraction of the state’s maintenance costs.

To sweeten the deal â€" $10 million per mile isn’t sweet enough, apparently â€" the state also agreed to pay for any accidents associated with the rail line, even if CSX were at fault. If a CSX freight train crashed, Florida taxpayers would have been on the hook. State CFO Alex Sink said she wasn’t sure the state could find an insurer to underwrite that $200 million policy.

This deal, negotiated in secret, is the very definition of corporate welfare. And taxpayers wouldn’t get much in return. At best, projections forecast 3,500 daily riders â€" barely a dent in I-4 traffic â€" on a train that would top out at 45 mph and stop every three miles or so. It wouldn’t get you where you were going very fast. And if your ultimate destination weren’t within walking distance, you’d have to hop on the LYNX bus. As anyone who’s relied on LYNX can attest, that’s not a heart-warming prospect [see “Take the keys,” April 19, 2007].

SunRail supporters cast it as a down payment on what this region really needs: an intermodal network of light rail lines, buses and other mass transportation options that would efficiently link downtown, UCF, the airport, International Drive, Innovation Way and whatever other employment and entertainment hot spots emerge. Ideally, this network would hook up to federally funded high-speed rail lines that crisscross the state and render the car irrelevant â€" or at least, less necessary.

Commuter rail doesn’t do that. It subsidizes those who choose to live in the hinterlands. It papers over the poor growth-management decisions of yesteryear rather than encouraging smart growth. It’s not a cure; it’s a Band-Aid.

Light rail was a good idea torpedoed by special interests and political cowardice. Commuter rail was supposed to be the cheaper, more digestible alternative. Now that it too has imploded, maybe it’s time to step back and re-evaluate our options: If we’re going to spend the money, why not spend it on something that would actually work?

jbillman@orlandoweekly.com

http://www.orlandoweekly.com/news/story.asp?id=13255

I used to live in Poinciana,........the worst decision I made. It is so out in the middle of nowhere,........it is the typical developers bonanza, that has hurt public transportation efforts due to lack of sufficient density: Can you say sprawl?

[Ocklawaha]

Ock...careful what you say....sometimes costs and users (which should not be a major measure) don't line up very well.

The Amtrak on FEC line is expected to cost over $700 million with all upgrades....and is projected to carry 910,000 passengers a year in its tenth year of operations (after all upgrades)....that am ounts to less than 2500 passengers per day.

Clearly the Outer beltway and SR 9B will have a better cost/user ratio!

This is where it gets interesting, you seem to be warning that people will apply the same ratios to the FEC that they do to Sunrail or HSR. Sure they will, and why not? The average investigative reporter in this state, because of a complete lack of transportation experiences, is dumb as a bag of rocks. Hell's bells, they'll try and run the Sunset Limited down the Skyway.

Fact is, the FEC railroad project is a completely different animal then HSR, Sunrail OR the Skyway, the former is LONG DISTANCE RAIL TRAVEL and the later 3 are all "corridor-commute" in makeup.

Your warning does make a good heads up for Lake, Lunican, Stephen, Myself and even you as it's author. We need to make damn sure these Yahoo's know the difference... Riding in a Amtrak Viewliner Bedroom, having just had my ham and eggs in the diner, is a far cry from standing in the Skyway, or squishing ones self into a fixed plastic seat on a commuter train.

OCKLAWAHA

[FayeforCure]

I still feel that since this project was initiated during the boom days of Florida, and the ridership numbers are rather low, that the real reason for Sunrail was to promote extensive redevelopment along the rail corridor in order to create ridership.

Is it primarily a developers bonanza rather than a people mover system?

nope...the original purpose of the project was to provide a transportation alternative while I-4 is under construction for many years (scheduled to begin around  2012)....Tri-Rail got started the same way (as an alternative to I-95 construction)

Yup, that's what was said to the public. The projected reality is far different:

At best, projections forecast 3,500 daily riders â€" barely a dent in I-4 traffic â€" on a train that would top out at 45 mph and stop every three miles or so. It wouldn’t get you where you were going very fast. And if your ultimate destination weren’t within walking distance, you’d have to hop on the LYNX bus

http://www.orlandoweekly.com/news/story.asp?id=13255

[CS Foltz]

"Developers bonanza for sure...........still have a need for HSR, LRT and intown rail systems of what ever one wants to call it!