High Speed Rail: A No-Brainer

[FayeforCure]

High Speed Rail: A No-Brainer
The Transformation of Transportation
By Chris Nelder
Friday, October 2nd, 2009

"'Boondoggle‘, 'Loss-making whim‘, ‘Monument to bad territorial planning'. . .

Such are the arguments of high speed rail critics, as the United States finally gets on board the passenger rail revolution that is sweeping the world.

But that quote wasn't about the U.S., and it wasn't about today's debate.

It came from an essay by José Blanco López, Spain's minister of transport and public works, which was published in a new pamphlet from SERA, a sustainability activist organization within the government Labour party. He was talking about the two decades of opposition that conservatives had mounted against the country's progress in building a high speed rail system.



Starting with a line from Madrid to Seville in 1989, Spain pursued an aggressive and determined commitment to high speed rail that, by 2012, will produce the longest system in Europe. This year alone, most of the country's â,¬19 billion development budget will be invested in high speed rail. By 2020, López says, more than 90% of the country's total population will be within 31 miles of a high speed train station.

Here he put his country's achievement in perspective:

Shielded behind overly simple, short sighted cost-benefit analysis, critics complained with those arguments against high speed projects over years, until the success of each one of the new corridors proved them wrong and showed that in troubled economic times, the best investments for a society are the ones which improve equality.

History has proved rail's critics wrong in Spain, as economic development and rider enthusiasm followed it everywhere it went.

Cretinous Shortsightedness
Even so, ever unwilling to learn from the successes of the rest of the world, the U.S. is now starting the same effort at about the same place as Spain was 20 years ago.

The president of the U.S. High Speed Rail Association, Andy Kunz, appeared on Fox Business last Friday to make his pitch. And what argument did the show's overcoiffed co-host raise? "Amtrak has been in the red for years and years and years, and nobody in charge over there seems to be able to turn a profit, despite the fact that everybody I know takes the train from New York to Washington D.C., the Acela. It's just not working though financially," she whined.

After Kunz explained that that the Acela leg (with a maximum speed of only about 100 mph) was in fact profitable, and that the rest of the system needed to be upgraded so that it was equally attractive and profitable and capable of speeds over 200 mph, the host pressed on: "How do you get people to ride it?" Kunz patiently explained his point again, and pointed out that when Europe opened its new high speed lines, they filled up with riders immediately. The hosts then tossed off a quick wisecrack about the Chunnel and muttered about the need for profitability, but assured the audience that "Nobody more than Fox Business wants to see new ventures succeed."

Be that as it may, one wonders why Europe's success would not convince them that high speed rail would be a good thing for this country. A projection from rail proponents FourBillion.com indicates that building the 9,000 miles of high speed corridors identified by the U.S. Department of Transportation would create 4.5 million permanent jobs and 1.6 million construction jobs, save 125 million barrels of oil, eliminate 20 million pounds of CO2 per mile per year, reinvigorate U.S. manufacturing, and generate $23 billion in economic benefits in the Midwest alone â€" all alongside a long list of intangible side benefits.

Putting aside the cretinous shortsightedness and obstinacy of conservative media, let's take a look at what the rest of the world is doing.

A Global High Speed Rail Explosion
The UK's Labour party is also pursuing an expansion of high speed rail, having commissioned a study on building a new line from London to the West Midlands and extensions to the north. Currently, Britain has only one high speed line, the 69-mile-long "High Speed 1" link from London to the aforementioned Channel Tunnel ("Chunnel") to France. The Tories have offered their own £15.6 billion plan, so it seems likely that Britain will soon have a new high speed project.

France, as I mentioned last year, already has the wonderful 200 mph high speed TGV network, with 1,100 miles of track, more than 400 trains and the third-highest ranking of rail passengers per year, behind Switzerland and Japan. Personally, I found it to be the most enjoyable travel experience I have ever had.


Bombardier's ZEFIRO 380

This week, the Chinese government awarded a $4 billion contract to build 80 high speed (236 mph maximum) electric train sets for the new 3,700-mile-long high speed train network it is building. Half of the contract went to Bombardier Sifang, a Chinese joint venture with Berlin-based rail giant Bombardier Transportation (TSE: BBD.A). The company will begin delivering the trains in 2012 and finish by 2014â€" boom, done.

Bombardier is already building 20 sleeper trains for China and another 20 passenger trains, in addition to the 500 high-power electric freight locomotives that it contracted to build for China in 2007.

Russia is taking the plunge into high speed rail as well, spending nearly $1.5 billion to upgrade 401 miles of track between Moscow and downtown St. Petersburg, and buy eight electric Sapsan trains made by German conglomerate Siemens (ETR: SIE) with a top operating speed of 217 mph. Four runs a day will make the trip in less than four hours, compared with an average five hours to make the trip by airplane, including the time wasted getting to and from the airport and running the check-in and security gauntlets.

Meanwhile, Back in the States. . .

Calling the U.S. "a developing country in terms of rail," a Siemens representative told the New York Times last week that his company was a candidate for a proposed high speed link between San Francisco and Los Angeles, along with Bombardier and Japanese bullet train manufacturer Hitachi.

SCNF, the French company that runs the TGV network, has submitted its own plan to the U.S. Federal Railroad Administration (FRA) for four 220 mph corridors in California, Florida, Texas, and the Chicago-Midwest area. The company believes it could open the first line from Milwaukee to Detroit by 2018 and be in full operation by 2023. The costs would be recouped quickly, according to SNCF, returning triple the $69 billion cost of the Midwest corridor within 15 years in environmental and other benefits.

All Costs Considered
Building America's high speed rail network will be expensive â€" about that, there is no disagreement. The $8 billion appropriated for high speed rail in the stimulus plan was dwarfed by the $103 billion in applications the FRA received for the funds, and is a small fraction of what the total network will cost. The California run alone will probably cost over $40 billion to construct, and that's after the state's existing commitments to building support networks and light rail links.

On the other hand, as the director of the BART light rail system pointed out this week in his testimony to San Francisco city supervisors with the city's Peak Oil Preparedness Task Force, the U.S. currently spends as much on parking as it does on national defense. I haven't run the numbers, but it seems within reason that if that is the case, spending that money instead on high speed and light rail would cover a very large part of the total cost.

Indeed, all of the cost arguments I have heard against rail are incomplete and wrong.

The true costs of remaining committed to our current road and air infrastructure are never taken into full account. . . like the health care costs of polluted air; the cost of continuously maintaining roads, bridges and tunnels; the availability of materials (remember, several cities in America literally could not buy asphalt during the oil frenzy of last year, because refiners were cracking every last lighter molecule they could from the crude); the trillions of dollars we are spending on oil imports and defense operations in oil producing regions of the world; the billions' worth of damage that our current ways do to the environment; the insurance costs of keeping up 240 million cars and light trucks; the damage and death that those millions of drivers cause; and so on, ad infinitum.

Rail is cheaper, safer, and better on every single count.

When the boundaries are properly defined, the entire transformation of transportation from liquid fuels to renewable electricity would create millions of permanent jobs, and could probably pay for itself.

But the cost isn't really the point anyway.

The Future: A No-Fly Zone
America still has no energy plan, let alone a plan to address the looming threat of peak oil. With the decline of global oil production starting around 2012 already "baked in," due to a lack of sufficient oil megaprojects, we desperately need to start making tracks toward a high speed rail infrastructure. . . or face a painful future of fuel shortages and economic dislocation (at best).

No part of our transportation system is as vulnerable to volatile fuel prices as the airline industry. It was built on the expectation that oil would rarely cost more than $40 a barrel, and it is completely dead if oil stays over $100 a barrel. Last year's oil price spikes put many smaller carriers out of business and cost the major carriers billions. .

For my money, the airline industry may as well be dead. Not just because of the damage that oil price volatility has done and will continue to do â€" and not just because the experience of air travel has become a painful routine of delays and personal insults â€" but because it's so inferior in every way to high speed rail travel for distances under 500 miles. The TGV line from Paris and Lyons virtually eliminated air travel between those cities, and the high speed line from Madrid to Barcelona cut air travel in half in the first year of its operation.

As I have explained in this column over the last several years, we simply cannot replace enough gasoline- and diesel-burning cars with ones that run on electricity to address the peak oil challenge in the time we have left.

Like compressed natural gas vehicles, PHEVs and EVs are "silver BBs" that will help cushion the blow, but in the long term and for the majority of miles traveled, rail is truly the only answer. Rail is by far the cheapest and most fuel-efficient form of transport, requiring about a third less fuel than air for personal travel, and as little as 3% of the energy for freight.

The serious pursuit of high speed rail would also make a real and significant dent in CO2 emissions, and enable part of the urgent transformation we must accomplish from liquid fuels to renewably generated electricity. As Lord Andrew Adonis, Britain's transport secretary, put it in the SERA publication: "High speed rail is now pretty well a ‘no-brainer' transport strategy for the 21st century."

The rest of the world is already kicking our butts in deploying renewable energy. China is running circles around us in long term resource planning and buying up every hard asset under the sun. And compared with the rest of the developed (and developing) world, we're bringing up the rear in rail.

But it doesn't have to be that way.

It's Go Time
If you've watched any of the new Ken Burns series on America's national parks, you know that protecting the common good has always been a struggle against vested interests and conservatives resistant to change. It took strong-willed men of vision like Teddy Roosevelt, John Muir, and Stephen Mather to override the opposition and do the right thing for the future. We need that kind of leadership now.

If I were President Obama, I would direct the Department of Transportation to immediately begin transforming America's infrastructure to one based on electric rail, regardless of the long-term cost, starting with the highest potential traffic and fuel savings and working our way down the list from there. I would do as the French did when they created the TGV: Declare eminent domain and lay in the high speed rails where they make the most sense. I would restrict federal funding for roads and bridges to critical maintenance projects where rail can't take over the load in time â€" with not a penny more spent on new car-based infrastructure. I would forbid any subsidies for cars and trucks with a fuel economy of less than 30 mpg. I would move all subsidies for fossil fuels into renewable energy â€" then double or triple them â€" to ensure that we can run that new electric infrastructure cleanly. I would bind Congress to my purpose and ride roughshod over the objectors, making it my number-one priority.

I know it may seem hard to believe, with oil holding steady around $70 and gasoline around $3. . . but if you haven't studied the data, then take the word of a guy who has: We're in serious trouble, folks. The Armageddon of transportation is dead ahead and we need to move aggressively and determinedly to head off the peak oil challenge. Rail is hands-down our best and biggest shot.

http://www.energyandcapital.com/articles/high-speed-rail-a-no-brainer/964#

[buckethead]

The article you present has the earmarks of pure propaganda. I love the idea of hogh speed rail; Specifically at the level of 125 MPH and above. This does not mean that HSR MCO-Tampa is a good starting point. The more I consider it, the more it looks to serve the purpose of trasnferring Orlado area attraction attendees to Tampa area attraction attendees. (e.g. Universal/Disney-Busch Gardens) I agree that is makes a lovely showpiece.

Add in the occasional Tampa Bay Buccaneers fan travelling from ORL-Tampa. Do you believe there will be a significant residential base that will utilize this system? If so, why?

[CS Foltz]

500 miles or less seems reasonable to me......think I would extend that out to 800 miles but thats just me. Anything longer than that or across the pond should be aircraft but to that mark, HSR is more than adequate and if quick enough probably better.

[JeffreyS]

I love the idea of HSR throughout the country. I just wish we were not trying to build one in Central Florida that bypasses Orlando. The current model is airport to Disney to Tampa. Note Disney has now handed down in it's benevolence that the state might be permitted to have a stop at the convention center. I will throw my support to the SEHSR which includes Jacksonville in it's plans.

[FayeforCure]

The article you present has the earmarks of pure propaganda.

Or pure inspiration. Depending on how you look at it.

I prefer to look at it in terms of OPPORTUNITY.

Unless, you look at why things went wrong in the US, in large part because conservatives in leadership generally loathe paying for public transport ( another form of social welfare), you cannot possible elect and have people in leadership positions who will be consistent and effective at pushing for rail.

It's like the AA states, you have to admit the problem before you can do something about it.

It's not surprising to see Jax leadership have very little interest in rail,......the city is Republican run.

[buckethead]

The article you present has the earmarks of pure propaganda.

Or pure inspiration. Depending on how you look at it.

I prefer to look at it in terms of OPPORTUNITY.

Unless, you look at why things went wrong in the US, in large part because conservatives in leadership generally loathe paying for public transport ( another form of social welfare), you cannot possible elect and have people in leadership positions who will be consistent and effective at pushing for rail.

It's like the AA states, you have to admit the problem before you can do something about it.

It's not surprising to see Jax leadership have very little interest in rail,......the city is Republican run.

Add in the occasional Tampa Bay Buccaneers fan travelling from ORL-Tampa. Do you believe there will be a significant residential base that will utilize this system? If so, why?

I understand the dysfunction of our elected officials as a whole, as well as within each party.

Thanks for the commentary on that. Would you care to comment on the question I asked?

It was not rhetorical, mean or incendiary. Just looking for clarity. I could still vote for you despite any differences of opinion if you prove to be as capable a debater and advocate for responsible government as you have proved to be at c&p.

[FayeforCure]

The article you present has the earmarks of pure propaganda.

Or pure inspiration. Depending on how you look at it.

I prefer to look at it in terms of OPPORTUNITY.

Unless, you look at why things went wrong in the US, in large part because conservatives in leadership generally loathe paying for public transport ( another form of social welfare), you cannot possible elect and have people in leadership positions who will be consistent and effective at pushing for rail.

It's like the AA states, you have to admit the problem before you can do something about it.

It's not surprising to see Jax leadership have very little interest in rail,......the city is Republican run.

Add in the occasional Tampa Bay Buccaneers fan travelling from ORL-Tampa. Do you believe there will be a significant residential base that will utilize this system? If so, why?

I understand the dysfunction of our elected officials as a whole, as well as within each party.

Thanks for the commentary on that. Would you care to comment on the question I asked?

It was not rhetorical, mean or incendiary. Just looking for clarity. I could still vote for you despite any differences of opinion if you prove to be as capable a debater and advocate for responsible government as you have proved to be at c&p.

buckethead, it's anyone's guess but I do think there will be a significant residential base. Maybe not the 50/50 split as the FDOT predicts, but likely in the 35-50%.

High speed rail: 64 minutes

Car: 88 minutes

Annual ridership: 2.8 million to 3.2 million passengers, with trains making 14 to 22 round trips daily on the Tampa-Orlando corridor.

Estimated costs from Tampa: $25 one-way to Disney; $30 one-way to Orlando International Airport

Yet to be answered:

Can people really give up their cars?

http://www.allbusiness.com/economy-economic-indicators/economic-indicators/13040577-1.html

The last question was already substantially answered last year when gas prices were $4. Ridership on public transportation, including rail increased significantly and stayed high even after gas prices came down. So the lesson is,.....once Americans try public transportation, they generally like it and stick with it.

There are so many factors that influence ridership though besides stops,.......there needs to be easy and convenient Park and ride opportunities,......we also need good frequency of service, so that if you miss a train, you can board the next one within a reasonable time. Also, that 88 min car drive is longer during rush hour, so any time it takes getting to and from the HSR station could still amount to less time than driving. Then there are environmentally conscious people etc.

The business community sure thinks there will be residential use of HSR:

The business community has rallied to the cause, as well.

"Our company has a strong interest in transportation initiatives that benefit all sectors of the economy," said Becca Bides, spokeswoman for Busch Entertainment Corp. "As a significant employer in both Orlando and Tampa regions, we also are interested in bettering transportation options for our 11,000 employees."

We got to get started somewhere, and the ridership numbers including tourists look pretty good to me! It would be nice if Florida for once wasn't lagging behind, and regressive in its plans.

[thelakelander]

Busch must pay their theme park employees well if they expect them to live next to Orlando's airport and pay +$60 a day in transportation costs to travel to work.

How vocal have Central Florida's Fortune 500 companies (Publix, Tech Data, Int'l Assets, Jabil, Darden and Wellcare Health, etc.) been?

[FayeforCure]

Busch must pay their theme park employees well if they expect them to live next to Orlando's airport and pay +$60 a day in transportation costs to travel to work.

How vocal have Central Florida's Fortune 500 companies (Publix, Tech Data, Int'l Assets, Jabil, Darden and Wellcare Health, etc.) been?

Hmmm, yeah, let's make sure all Central Florida's Fortune 500 companies are on board........

Never mind that there is overwheming support all the way around:

Another advantage for Florida is that its lobbying effort enjoys unusual bipartisan participation. Supporters include the Republican governor, both Florida U.S. senators, eight Democratic and three Republican congressmen; 21 state Republican and seven Democratic legislators; and a broad representation of business groups, the advocacy group FastRailConnect.Us.com says.

Vice President Joe Biden and U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood in June made public comments supportive of Florida's rail plans, with LaHood saying Florida and California were leading contenders. LaHood is scheduled to address a transportation conference in Orlando next month.

http://www.allbusiness.com/economy-economic-indicators/economic-indicators/13040577-1.html

Curiously a local congressman who is a so-called supporter of HSR ( primarily to take away and privatize Amtrak's most profitable route) is not among the 11 Congressmen from Florida supporting HSR. And you know, we've just got to have his back

Meantime, let's hear from Alexander Lennartz, a freelance writer based out of Los Angeles, dealing with issues of sustainable energy policy, public transportation and green architecture:

After the Bushes have gone: High Speed Rail & the Florida corridor
Posted on July 27, 2009
by CleanTechies - Premier Partner SustainLane Premier Content Partners are part of a growing network of publishers bringing you the very best green content from across the web.


As a former resident of Florida (1999-2002…Go Seminoles) your author can assure you, the state is in need of high speed rail.

The vast state makes travel times by car irritatingly long. The most extreme example is the drive from Pensacola to Key West. Distance of that journey is 828 miles, clocking in at over 13 hours. From anywhere in the panhandle to south Florida is an all day affair behind the wheel.

Drivers along the highways (especially 10) are under the close eye of the Highway Patrol and must keep the pace under 75 miles per hour for hours and hours and hours. Out of all the HSR corridors, Florida should have the most urgent need for speed. A 220 mph train would be the optimal mode of transit from Tallahassee all the way down to Miami. The length of that journey (480 miles) gives passenger rail a time advantage over cars and planes. Any trip less than 500 miles gives trains the upper hand concerning travel times.

All of Florida’s major cities are in that crucial 500 mile range along the I-75 corridor or coast. From Jacksonville to Miami, virtually the entire length of the state, the distance is 344 miles. With this in mind, the architect of the modern Florida HSR .

Corridor, C.C “Doc” Dockery, sought to bring this infrastructure to the state. This effort ran headlong into the Bush family. For some reason, Governor Jeb Bush was diametrically opposed to HSR in Florida and did everything in his power to kill passenger rail in the Sunshine State (*FYI â€" House of Bush, House of Saud offers some rather salient points and can be found on Amazon.com here).

Florida’s population has nearly doubled since 1980 from over 9 million people to over 18 million in 2008. This constant influx of people shaped the Floridian economy into what has been described as a giant Ponzi scheme. The state is dependent on new arrivals and investment to keep the economy running. Developers built condos, malls and golf courses, but neglected to build sufficient transport infrastructure to link what they had made.

The economic crisis bit Florida in a number of ways. The housing bubble was the most significant. Also high on the list of ills is that expensive fuel hit Floridians very hard because the only way to get around the peninsula is by car. It does not matter if you are a student going to see your parents on the weekend or a retiree that wants to hit the links, without a car you are going nowhere. This dependence is unhealthy and other transport options need to be made available.

The good news is that the Bushes are out of their respective offices. Republican Governor Charlie Crist is a tacit supporter of the plan, which by GOP standards is a ringing endorsement. Governor Crist is set for a Senate run in 2010 so it may be up to a new Governor to get momentum for the project on the state level. For this project, the federal government might need to step in and get things rolling.

Posted to CleanTechies by alex

CleanTechies is a career site & business network for the CleanTech community. It focuses on renewable energy, resource efficiency, green building, and sustainable transportation.

http://www.sustainlane.com/reviews/after-the-bushes-have-gone-high-speed-rail-the-florida-corridor/FBYUSC4K9MXVUA9AR12PJPNA13QB

[Ocklawaha]

SKYWAY II, ANOTHER NO - BRAIN DECISION

OCKLAWAHA'S STORY TELLING:
German High Speed Rail Train Wreck, like the Orlando-Tampa deal this was a no-brainer... The engineers that designed the cars, discovered the old drawings for "silent wheels" here in the USA. Train wheels DO HAVE A TIRE of a super high grade / almost stainless steel outer band. These are heat shrunk onto the wheel then cooled causing the tire to contract TIGHT making the wheel look like a single piece. The tire goes on the wheel, but with Silent Wheel technology, there is a layer of thick high impact paper which deadens the sound transfer from wheel meets rail to the inside of the coach. So far, so good, only something was lost in translation and nobody in Germany knew the American PAPER WHEELS WERE DESIGNED FOR STREETCARS! No frickin' wonder the damn thing shredded. Another HSR no - brainer.

All Information from US CENSUS Bureau.

Orange County Florida,
largest single industry for females: Lodging - 13%
largest single industry for males: Lodging - 12%

The Beach Line Turnpike, divides all zip codes either north or south of the highway. Running a line of zip codes all the way across Orlando, on the ORLANDO SIDE, or NORTH SIDE of the Beach Line produces this data:

32833 zip
5,000 population
184 density very low

32825 zip
43,000 population
1348 density low

32822 zip
52,000 population
2262 density low

32812 zip
36000 population
4725 density average

32809 zip
22000 population
2612 density average

Now on the South for Airport side of the Beach Line Turnpike

32821 zip
13,000 population
798 density low

32837 zip
35,000 population
2607 density average

32824 zip
19,000 population
831 density low

32827 zip
2,000 population
80 density very low

32832 zip
2,000 population
37 density very low

So there you have it boys and girls, Orange County from about the East-West Expressway to the Beach Line Turnpike, south to the County Line. East and West across the whole spectrum from Boonie east, to Boonie west.

This is not the stuff HSR should be serving, much of this area roughly 10-12 miles north or south of the airport, and 20 miles east or west, well beyond most park and ride commute distances from OIA. Frankly had Jacksonville located JIA like Orlando did OIA, we'd have to drive to Big Talbot Island to get on a plane! If this thing gets funded it will not vindicate Faye's position, or FDOT, DOT, etc... It's going to be a transportation Titanic, that will galvanize the anti-rail forces in Tallahassee from EVER DOING RAIL AGAIN!

Using the CSX right of way, the zip code populations change drastically.  Very few numbers like 37 or 80 persons per square mile in density. Why? Because that railroad has been there since the old SOUTH FLORIDA narrow gauge was extended from Sanford to Tampa in the 1870's.

This isn't about a "SHOWCASE TRAIN" or a "MAGIC CURE" this is about money pure and simple. If it's approved after some of the scathing articles in industry publications, basically saying what Lake and I have been saying all along, then look under the table. Somebody has got a pocket full of MICKEY MONEY.

OCKLAWAHA

[Ocklawaha]

From Faye :
Curiously a local congressman who is a so-called supporter of HSR ( primarily to take away and privatize Amtrak's most profitable route) is not among the 11 Congressmen from Florida supporting HSR. And you know, we've just got to have his back

Actually Faye, recent discoverys in Amtraks lousy bookkeeping, have shown that about 3 out of 4 audits have proved that the North East Corridor IS NOT the most profitable part of Amtrak. This was mostly the fault of a news media type error and somehow became "fact". You want to see a train that MAKES MONEY in the USA, go look at Auto-Train in Sanford, or Amtraks EMPIRE BUILDER between Chicago - Twin Cities - Portland/Seattle. I know that you Faye, and tufsu1, and God knows how many others might post 100 articles about the "profit from the NEC." Amtraks Crescent Limited NYC-NOL, is another example of long distance that works. One train each way daily, (and it should be 5 each way daily) covers the NYC-Washington, Washington-Alexandria, Alexandria-Charlotte, Charlotte-Atlanta, Atlanta-Birmingham, Birmingham-Meridian, Meridan-New Orleans. Every mile is part of a smaller corridor, and it's nearly impossible to book a seat or bedroom on this train.

OCKLAWAHA

[CS Foltz]

Ock I do agree............have no choice! True HSR would involve , by my rules, runs of 5 to 8 Hundred Miles  and this so-called HSR run from Orlando Airport to St Pete does not have the total mileage to qualify as HSR. Feeder system to Mouseville is more appropriate or Airport person removal system but not High Speed Rail. Something along the lines of Jacksonville, Miami, Orlando, Tallahassee, in either direction along with route expansion out north or west makes sense to me. I read somewhere that Jacksonville to Miami is something like 388 miles and that sounds about right so with HSR (200 mph+) even taking into account several stops, run time would be about 3 to 5 hours! More stops, then more time but more than 1 to 5 people would be moving all in the same direction and if you add x numbers of cars to increase ridership, you remove x number of cars from the road. I am gonna stop there........flogging the proverbial deceased mule!

[tufsu1]

CS...your rules make no sense...most everyopne else believes that HSR can compete with air travel for distances of up to 500 (or maybe more) miles....meaning that trips of around 100 miles would qualify!

[CS Foltz]

tufsu1 I stand by my statement............which if you will note "500 to 800 miles" ! I would think that trips up to 100 miles would qualify also under that, to me that would go without saying! I believe most systems would label that as an "Express" right? New York has a mix of just subway transit for both local and express....I think that would be a matter of scheduling and available track for passing other than that most of the subway traffic is scheduled for multiple usage by different trains. Something along those lines could be used elsewhere also. HSR by my standards is high speed rail with trip duration scheduled according to ridership and requirements for the traveling public. I want a rail system in Florida that is multiuse, cost effective and statewide!

[tufsu1]

This is what you said...

True HSR would involve , by my rules, runs of 5 to 8 Hundred Miles  and this so-called HSR run from Orlando Airport to St Pete does not have the total mileage to qualify as HSR.

Are you now changing your mind and deciding that a 100 mile distance (from Tampa - Orlando) could be acceptable? 

Keep in mind that the system would then be extended 250+ miles to Miami...and possibly another 125+ up to Jax....where it could then tie into a national system