(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4140/4878339077_82e58ffed6.jpg)
Jonathan Insetta's restaurant group (Black Sheep) has an ambitious plan for building a modern, efficient infill project in the fast growing 5 Points district of the Urban Core. Insetta, of Chew (http://chewrestaurant.com) and Orsay (http://restaurantorsay.com) fame, is planning to open a new restaurant as the anchor of a three story commercial building which will feature a rooftop bar and gathering space.
The name has not be determined, but the location has. The group has been working hard to reach a complex set of goals, to place the restaurant at the corner of Margaret and Oak, next to Mossfire Grill. The flatiron lot where the restaurant will sit, presents a unique set of hurdles in terms of parking and some existing trees.
Black Sheep is proposing to add 23 new spaces on Oak Street and upgrade the 13 spaces on Margaret adjacent to the property. All spaces will be open to the public with a 3 hour limit to encourage visitors to eat, walk and shop. You can bet there will be a sizable bike rack to support the large number of cyclists in the community.
As you can glean from the designs and scale model shown, the plan is an efficient use of space using true urban density design principles while also creating new parking. This project also creates new jobs and new street front retail which finishes a continuous retail link from Riverside Park to Memorial Park, one of the longest retail strolls in the city.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4139/4878947422_cd3b9cbd34.jpg)
While urban development and the food and beverage industry are both fraught with risk, especially in today's climate, Insetta's experience and reputation from Downtown's Chew and Avondale's Restaurant Orsay (both in historic buildings) will be helpful. The neighborhoods of Riverside, Avondale, and Historic Five Points have been aware of and involved in the project for weeks.
There is much work left to do for the project to become a reality including the final city approval and a unique commercial zoning change called an Urban Transitional Area (UTA) added to HB 485 that would make this district much like downtown's with regards to seating capacity required.
HB 485(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4137/4879200552_c8a5e4136f.jpg)
The addition of 5 Points to this well supported bill will make it easier for bona fide restaurants to survive and thrive in the spatially constricting spaces that a historic retail area presents.
The UTA â€" The Riverside Overlay set up the Urban Transitional Area (the Commercial area of 5 Points) to encourage this type of infill development â€" imagine, living, working and shopping all within a ½ mile radius. As projects like this, Publix, 1661 and others are developed, the area can truly live up to it’s Urban name.
So not only is Black Sheep investing in the neighborhood it is also paving the way for the further proliferation of destinations in Five Points, opening an economic development zone that allows a more reasonable seating requirement for historic districts. See map below.
Should this change work, expect further developments, local restaurants, jobs, and foot traffic in from Historic Five Points all the way to the river. Our neighbors and co-workers (http://www.wingardcreative.com) seem galvanized at the idea of further local, sustainable development in 5 Points and hope that urban infill and historic development spreads with the success of this project.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4121/4878591409_a75ae7f989.jpg)
A statement from Jon InsettaQuote"We at Black Sheep Restaurant Group are very excited for the opportunity to become part of the 5 Points neighborhood. At Chew and Orsay we pride ourselves in the symbiotic relationship we maintain within our surrounding community and hopefully we can be a force for positive change with this new project. As owner operator of both the restaurant and the building itself we bring a level of commitment to the community that few can match.
I also believe that we can act as a bridge between historic 5 Points and the newer commercial district to the south. The project will create more jobs as well as fit the spirit of the urban transition area overlay. We plan on being a part of 5 Points for many years to come and see ourselves as a very positive addition to an already amazingly diverse community of independent and national businesses. 5 Points has a synergy and identity that we feel right at home in.
What are your thoughts on the project and the design?
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4138/4879200502_598510dac9.jpg)
http://www.urbanjacksonville.info/2010/08/10/black-sheep-restaurant-group-planning-new-restaurant-for-5-points-next-to-mossfire/
QuoteThe name has not be determined, but the location has. The group has been working hard to reach a complex set of goals, to place the restaurant at the corner of Margaret and Oak, next to Mossfire Grill. The flatiron lot where the restaurant will sit, presents a unique set of hurdles in terms of parking and some existing trees.
That was the site of a pretty contentious fight in the past by RAP. That's a SMALL site for such infill.
This could get pretty interesting.
How will this be different from the previous project planned for this space due to the unique size restrictions/concerns of the past?
THANK GOODNESS!!!!! That is a prime piece of real estate that has been sitting dormant for nearly a decade. RAP was saying that it was too dense for that area, causing a 'canyon effect' with 1661 next door. I think this is a perfect use. Will they be able to borrow parking from 1661 or have a valet service? I would hate for parking to kill this, as it is in a very walkable and urban neighborhood, but in Jacksonville it's very possible.
The design isn't perfect, but I love the scale of the building and how it fits into the area as a whole. I wish them great success and a speedy development.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on August 10, 2010, 11:48:29 AM
I would hate for parking to kill this, as it is in a very walkable and urban neighborhood, but in Jacksonville it's very possible.
Good thing it's walkable because that's what visitors will have to do! :) There already is a shortage of parking in this area, especially at meal times, and this little bit won't make much difference. Add a new, sure to be successful restaurant, and the area is going to be packed.
Quote from: stjr on August 10, 2010, 11:52:10 AM
Quote from: Captain Zissou on August 10, 2010, 11:48:29 AM
I would hate for parking to kill this, as it is in a very walkable and urban neighborhood, but in Jacksonville it's very possible.
Good thing it's walkable because that's what visitors will have to do! :) There already is a shortage of parking in this area, especially at meal times, and this little bit won't make much difference. Add a new, sure to be successful restaurant, and the area is going to be packed.
I can concur with that statement. The last 5 times I went to Larrys I had to park North of 5 Pts Theatre and walk to get my sandwich to-go, lol.
That was RAP's concern before. Im very interested to see how Mr Insetta's plans will improve on previous plans.
Nice! Let the Renovation of Five Points keep moving NORTH!
Keep going and redo that whole strip of Mossfire, the Dental place and this Black Sheep thing, Global Alarms, Sake House, etc. similar to what they did just a block south with the Publix area.
Quote from: rjp2008 on August 10, 2010, 12:12:33 PM
Nice! Let the Renovation of Five Points keep moving NORTH!
Keep going and redo that whole strip of Mossfire, the Dental place and this Black Sheep thing, Global Alarms, Sake House, etc. similar to what they did just a block south with the Publix area.
I'd say that's one of the nicest blocks in the area. O'brother's was recently redone, the dentist is absurd nice, Mossfire is ok.... Maybe the place on the corner could use a touch up, but that's it. Do you mean turn that area into a strip mall, or what?
Knowing the trees in the area, it's going to be interesting. There's a lot of low hanging oaks and stuff at this corner. I wonder how this rooftop bar is going to work out? Are they going to be taking out trees?
I really hope they don't cut down those oaks for this, but from that model it looks like they will.
I don't know how well this building will blend in with surrounding structures either. It looks a little office park-ish. Interesting.
Quote from: RiversideLoki on August 10, 2010, 12:24:25 PM
Knowing the trees in the area, it's going to be interesting. There's a lot of low hanging oaks and stuff at this corner. I wonder how this rooftop bar is going to work out? Are they going to be taking out trees?
On an unrelated note... were u in the Times Union today???
I'd like it if more buildings in the area would look like what this will look like I'll just say that.
I would like to see some restaurants open up in the empty spaces in Five Points.
Quote from: rjp2008 on August 10, 2010, 12:54:25 PM
I'd like it if more buildings in the area would look like what this will look like I'll just say that.
I think that's what the southside is for?
That model is pretty bland right now and I am sure the buidling will have some colors/detail to brighten it up.
Quote from: fieldafm on August 10, 2010, 12:37:04 PM
Quote from: RiversideLoki on August 10, 2010, 12:24:25 PM
Knowing the trees in the area, it's going to be interesting. There's a lot of low hanging oaks and stuff at this corner. I wonder how this rooftop bar is going to work out? Are they going to be taking out trees?
On an unrelated note... were u in the Times Union today???
Why, yes! Yes I was.
(http://i.imgur.com/lC5Yk.jpg)
Quote from: rjp2008 on August 10, 2010, 12:54:25 PM
I'd like it if more buildings in the area would look like what this will look like I'll just say that.
I agree to an extent. I like the idea of EXISTING vacant lots being home to modern architecture. But I don't want our neighborhood to turn into a scenario where you have developers/owners knocking down buildings just to put in modern architecture.
That being said, I'm really excited to see this come to fruition. Here's hoping!
They need to make sure they fragment that massive white solid gesture. Perhaps with metal paneling, as this is durable enough to be used at street level.
Hey Joey, quick question, who's design is this?
Nevermind. Milan just told me! D-Coop! I knew the design looked familiar. It definitely has Mike and Logan's flare.
is that a "la fin du monde" behind the model?
"I agree to an extent. I like the idea of EXISTING vacant lots being home to modern architecture. But I don't want our neighborhood to turn into a scenario where you have developers/owners knocking down buildings just to put in modern architecture."
Yup. Agree. I would try to replace/move non-historical buildings like Wendys and help places like
Pizza Palace become much, much better attractions.
Yeah, Wendy's is a big offender. That corner could definitely use some more apropos architecture considering the corner it's on. Wendy's would be better inset into one of the empty store fronts on Oak street by publix. Drive through is handy... but it's just a drunk magnet.
I guess I shoulda called Jon back early yesterday instead of waiting til today so Joey could nab my scoop
;)
Quote from: acme54321 on August 10, 2010, 12:35:51 PM
I really hope they don't cut down those oaks for this, but from that model it looks like they will.
I think tree removal is one of the more contentious issues right now. Will have to wait and see.
TU Just posted an article: http://jacksonville.com/business/2010-08-10/story/new-multiuse-building-planned-five-points
Notable » Insetta 90% sure Chew downtown will close if this restaurant is built.
Quote from: urbanjacksonville on August 10, 2010, 06:40:28 PM
Quote from: acme54321 on August 10, 2010, 12:35:51 PM
I really hope they don't cut down those oaks for this, but from that model it looks like they will.
I think tree removal is one of the more contentious issues right now. Will have to wait and see.
We have had an on-site informal meeting with a RAP representative and a City landscape architect who concluded that most, if not all, of the trees that may be removed are toward the end of their lives - water oaks and older palms. There are trees, including a large live oak in the city's right of way on Oak Street, that will be preserved. Additionally, we will add new canopy trees in the newly created and upgraded parking areas.
Quote from: acme54321 on August 10, 2010, 01:04:58 PM
Quote from: rjp2008 on August 10, 2010, 12:54:25 PM
I'd like it if more buildings in the area would look like what this will look like I'll just say that.
I think that's what the southside is for?
That model is pretty bland right now and I am sure the buidling will have some colors/detail to brighten it up.
The color has not been decided on yet, but it will not be strictly white.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on August 10, 2010, 11:48:29 AM
THANK GOODNESS!!!!! That is a prime piece of real estate that has been sitting dormant for nearly a decade. RAP was saying that it was too dense for that area, causing a 'canyon effect' with 1661 next door. I think this is a perfect use. Will they be able to borrow parking from 1661 or have a valet service? I would hate for parking to kill this, as it is in a very walkable and urban neighborhood, but in Jacksonville it's very possible.
The design isn't perfect, but I love the scale of the building and how it fits into the area as a whole. I wish them great success and a speedy development.
Thanks for the support Capt Z -
Differences in last proposal mentioned in another post - I believe our proposed building is shorter than the previous, so we hope to create less of that canyon effect. Our proposal is also more mixed use in nature and owner occupied, which we feel fits our and the neighborhoods goals better.
Valet parking in Jacksonville deserves it's own blog thread. It's not a matter of available parking and cost to the business in Jacksonville as much as it is the "vibe" it sends.
The real parking challenge for everyone in 5 Points is during lunch which is not typically valet time, especially in Jacksonville. The addition of 23 spaces, if we can get approval, is a key part of our business model and our sincere desire to be a contributing part of 5 Points.
Recently, JTA announced continued and expanded service of the Riverside Trolley that should make it easier for more people to travel to and from 5 Points from Downtown to the northeast and Kent Campus to the west. We hope that our project will be a catalyst in the urban development of 5 Points.
During the evening, parking is less of an issue. A city parking report done during the last rezoning request deemed the parking in the area underutilized. If you are willing to walk a city block at night, you can park immediately. If you feel it's unsafe, further development and infill can only make it safer.
We are very excited at the opportunity to fill this lot with a great building and remain open to answering questions regarding the process and specifics.
http://www.urbanjacksonville.info/2010/08/10/black-sheep-restaurant-group-planning-new-restaurant-for-5-points-next-to-mossfire/
I am a huge fan of modern architecture but this proposed design for the triangular site next to Mossfire Grill in 5 Points is simple hideous in the extreme. It is the worst kind of bad modern architecture; it looks like a Southside office complex. I sincerely hope RAP opposes this design with all of it power.
Quote from: trigger on August 11, 2010, 09:06:43 AM
http://www.urbanjacksonville.info/2010/08/10/black-sheep-restaurant-group-planning-new-restaurant-for-5-points-next-to-mossfire/
I am a huge fan of modern architecture but this proposed design for the triangular site next to Mossfire Grill in 5 Points is simple hideous in the extreme. It is the worst kind of bad modern architecture; it looks like a Southside office complex. I sincerely hope RAP opposes this design with all of it power.
Trigger,
Give it a chance. Orsay worked very closely with RAP on their remodel and will on this project. It is a model and a sketch, not the finished project.
Plus it is located in the urban transition overlay which has different standards than most of RAP's district.
Ben Davis
I don't think that block is in the Riverside/Avondale Historic Distric, so RAP may not be able to do anything about it. My biggest concern is the loss of the oak trees on that parcel. Hopefully this is just an early model that gets dressed up some. I don't mind modern architechture in the historic areas as long as it's interesting and blends well with everything else.
I actually like it. I think contemporary architecture can be a great addition to a historic area. Unfortunately it is usually done with the wrong scale/massing and the result is it looks out of place. This site is small and there is only so much you can do with it. Parking sucks around there - I wonder if that will be a problem for the restaurant.
Allan,
What are the plans for the rooftop? Will it be part of the restaurant or its own separate bar space? Also, how will that affect possible residential units directly below it? I like the idea of the rooftop bar/club. I think it will add to the area in a big way.
It has my stamp of approval. IMHO one oak tree out of the thousands in the neighborhood is worth losing for this development. As for final design: looks like they have spent considerable time and money already on the model, the site plan, and the video. Therefore this is probably very similar to what will end up on the site.
Financing for a restaurant is pretty difficult. Mr. Orsay will likely have to work out pre-lease of about 5,000 SF at least to get financing. I bet a small law firm or doctor's office could locate there.
Well a live oak is worth something. A water oak really isn't. If you guys have ever seen pictures of the early development of every neighborhood in town: they were all clear cut. This development is worth losing one or two water oaks, imho.
Build right around the tree and have it inside the restaurant lol.
Great Design! Utilizes the space in an excellent manor. Helps the urban wants and needs. De Stijl (esque) meets a bit of post modern with a bit of today. Can't wait to see the finish product. will look amazing i bet!
Quote from: trigger on August 11, 2010, 09:06:43 AM
http://www.urbanjacksonville.info/2010/08/10/black-sheep-restaurant-group-planning-new-restaurant-for-5-points-next-to-mossfire/
I am a huge fan of modern architecture but this proposed design for the triangular site next to Mossfire Grill in 5 Points is simple hideous in the extreme. It is the worst kind of bad modern architecture; it looks like a Southside office complex. I sincerely hope RAP opposes this design with all of it power.
no no no no no.
You know what they say: "Opinions are like assholes."
I personally like the design. I've hung around enough architects' offices in this city to see some pretty awesome modern designs that just go to the wayside because some fuddy-duddy hates modern architecture. Remember, the same people that say "I love modern architecture but..." are usually the same people in this city that say "I have black friends but..."... OK so that's a little extreme.
We need to take the sticks out of our rears in terms of architecture here. Most of Jacksonville's "new" architecture is so boring and bland because no one wants to shake up the scene and rock the boat. We love our McOfficeCondos, McStripMalls and McMansions. They're cheap to design and cheap to build. Hell, there are a few firms in Jax that JUST Specialize in rubberstamp plans. That's how JAX rolls. Take the new courthouse (*puke*) for example.
Of course, proponents of that type of architecture will often say "But it matches the classical style of Klutho or whoever." to them I say "No it doesn't. Your new 80 million dollar building looks like a scaled up family care medical office. Probably used the same rubber stamp plans."
It's nice to see some of the younger talent shine. I hope this thing gets built.
Agreed^^^
There are some cool houses in the metro, but as far as commercial space, we have the most boring designs for all of our buildings. It's no wonder that AD or Florida Design never even bother with anything in Jacksonville and no modern interior design, kitchen, furniture, or other stores open up locations here.
We have some great architects in this city, but most never bother with anything contemporary.
It's already a tiny footprint. How could the building be profitable/able to stand if it takes away half of the space?
Roof top bar will be easy...everyone just gets a GIANT straw and drink out of that HUGE beer bottle shown in the second picture!!
"Remember, the same people that say "I love modern architecture but..." are usually the same people..."
I believe the City of Jacksonville's track record on modern architecture is very well established as being somewhere between bad and crap. It's pretty clear that there are very few people in this city who really know what good modern architecture is and their very limited experience is the problem not the criticisms of this design (using that term very loosely). I've seen good architects crap better designs in their sleep than this (OK, not a very good mixed metaphor there but you get the point).
Quote from: trigger on August 11, 2010, 10:33:10 AM
"Remember, the same people that say "I love modern architecture but..." are usually the same people..."
I believe the City of Jacksonville's track record on modern architecture is very well established as being somewhere between bad and crap. It's pretty clear that there are very few people in this city who really know what good modern architecture is and their very limited experience is the problem not the criticisms of this design (using that term very loosely). I've seen good architects crap better designs in their sleep than this (OK, not a very good mixed metaphor there but you get the point).
Thanks Trigger, good reply!
I agree.. I've "seen" lots of what some would term "better designs". The problem is, you don't see them *built* that often. You see the same garbage over and over. Stucco and ugly columns and beige and junk. Always drab, never edgy, never pushing the limits.
I'm no professional architecture critic, I'm definitely no architect. I'm a computer guy that has worked with lots of architects. I just see what tickles my fancy and say "Holy crap, those renderings are amazing! I'd love to see that built!" But it never happens.
Modern in this town is code for cheap. There are very few people in this town with the cojones to design and build a really outstanding piece of modern architecture.
What do you think about the UNF student union? Would you consider that modern?
UNF Student Union? I'm drawing a blank, which really tells the story. I'm sure I've seen it and it made zero impression.
The UNF student union has modern architectural touches. It is a nice addition to campus. Just Google Image it. Here is a pic on wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:UNF_student_union_at_night.JPG
OK, I remember it now. Yes, some nice touches. Unfortunately, it's stuck in the middle of a truly pedestrian example of campus master planning.
First of all, I am a huge supporter of Insetta's work and believe he sets a high standard for dining in Jacksonville. Adding to 5 points will be positive for the area and we shouldn't worry about the parking. A couple of thoughts.
I like how the building facade below is broken up. I realize the Oak street lot is not big, but I think adding some character, like a balcony, to the design would help it blend into the neighborhood.
(http://i750.photobucket.com/albums/xx145/jhinke/flatironmilwaukee.jpg)
This picture showcases an enclosed glass restaurant on top of the building. Personally because of our rain and hot hot sun here, what if the rooftop had an actual top to it, but left the walls open-air. This way diners would be protected from the elements but still able to enjoy the fresh air and breeze. Again this would add a lot of character and a new dimension to the building. The current design looks bland to me.
(http://i750.photobucket.com/albums/xx145/jhinke/RooftopRestaurant.jpg)
Modern Architecture..... Bring it on! Is Jax ready for this? ;D
(http://oneshotexhibition.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/iac_building_low_04.jpg)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_uEbqqVgaYXA/SlO7GpbmcyI/AAAAAAAAACg/K3FNdng28c8/s400/CapsuleTower.jpg)
(http://www.archithings.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/New-York-Residence-by-Massimo-Iosa-Ghini-Associati-1.jpg)
(http://www.homehousedesign.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/Apartment-Building-Design-in-New-York-HL23-Pictures-587x879.jpg)
(http://architourist.pbworks.com/f/1255441548/1255441548/ChelseaModern1.JPG)
(http://www.architeria.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Architetural-Pazhou-Hotel-Building-in-China-by-Aedas.jpg)
(http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2009/07/24/alg_architecture.jpg)
Now that is the kind of modern I think would look great in five points! Something funky for a funky area :o
How's this for 'Modern' :
(http://www.aiaorlando.com/newsletters/2006-2008-images/june06/jax-federal.jpg)
and this:
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-4402-p1090626.JPG)
and this:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6f/Jacksonville_Veterans_Memorial_Arena.JPG/250px-Jacksonville_Veterans_Memorial_Arena.JPG)
http://www.ladowntownnews.com/articles/2010/08/06/news/doc4c58a445ba9c5257016709.txt
Just to give people a heads up on what other downtowns are working on. This is in Downtown Los Angeles...my hometown :( Which even with a shitty economy, they still have dreams out there. and actually work to get these dreams to live.
But here's a bite of where today's architecture needs to go.
another view from the highway
http://la.curbed.com/uploads/2010.03.wilshiregrandsecond.jpg
There is already a modern building in the 5 Points area built in about 1979. It's the medical office right behind the 5 Points theater on Margaret Street. Even has a big hole in the side.
Wasn't the building that was torn down so that 1661 could be built also an example of modern architecture?
It was a Taylor Hardwick designed medical office building. It was pretty fugly, in disrepair and had a roof design that didn't quite act very functional.
I was never a big fan of that building, but I think there were quite a few people who were.
Quote from: Dapperdan on August 11, 2010, 09:47:35 AM
Allan,
What are the plans for the rooftop? Will it be part of the restaurant or its own separate bar space? Also, how will that affect possible residential units directly below it? I like the idea of the rooftop bar/club. I think it will add to the area in a big way.
Dapper - Short answer - they will operate as one restaurant and that's specified in the rezoning application. The rooftop restaurant seating and bar will operate and close at the same time as the restaurant below - weather permitting. The best reference is the lounge at Orsay as it will differ in design from the main dining room with a more casual feel and available for dining, cocktailing, and gathering. We just won't have a roof.
We plan to have offices on the 3rd floor that would be vacant in the evening, the bulk of the rooftop's operating hours.
Quote from: fieldafm on August 11, 2010, 02:01:37 PM
It was a Taylor Hardwick designed medical office building. It was pretty fugly, in disrepair and had a roof design that didn't quite act very functional.
The fact that 'most' architects don't take functionality into much account has provided me with a solid career. I didn't go to school for architecture, engineering or interior/exterior design, but my job is taking the design of others and making it work.
Personally, I like the design of the new building, but it's incorporating the functionallity into it that's a pain in the ass.
That's a real small footprint within which to provide an elevator and handicapped restrooms on every level too.
Anybody know who the architect is?
Quote from: Dog Walker on August 11, 2010, 05:29:29 PM
That's a real small footprint within which to provide an elevator and handicapped restrooms on every level too.
Anybody know who the architect is?
Design Cooperative on Hendricks Avenue. They should have been credited long ago. And there are actually 2 staircases, handicapped restrooms on every public floor, an elevator and a dumbwaiter to get food to the roof.
Quote from: Allan D on August 11, 2010, 06:53:11 PM
handicapped restrooms on every public floor
Is there an "ACLU" representing the restrooms, also - you have to have handicapped ones as well as regular ones?????? ;)
Having built / renovated 5 restaurant spaces over the years, my impression, after dealing with the Government (plural), is that the restrooms are the most important and troublesome part of the project. As my sainted father once remarked to an Orange Park building inspector "They're coming here to eat, not to shit", but that's not how the inspector saw it.
Good luck building anything these days. Don't forget the fire sprinklers! I have no doubt Jonathan will get it done.
Westsider, All commercial buildings have to have restrooms that are accessible by wheelchairs. That imposes a long list of design criteria giving these restrooms a much larger footprint than the one in your home.
Hats off to the Design Cooperative making this work in such a small footprint and mixed use too!
Sure parking is going to be a problem, but clustering clubs, restaurants etc. into a small area adds to the excitement and vibe. People will walk a couple of blocks.
Quote from: Dog Walker on August 12, 2010, 08:36:55 AM
Sure parking is going to be a problem, but clustering clubs, restaurants etc. into a small area adds to the excitement and vibe. People will walk a couple of blocks.
Agreed, that and most people visiting the building will more than likely live in the "urban core" so they are generally use to the parking / walking scenario. I don't see it being a big problem at all. I'm definately excited to see more coming into 5-Points! Hopefully we can fill some of these empties in the main strip soon as well.
Parking problems are a good thing. It means people want to be in your district and increases the need for viable mass transit. Anyway, there's on-street parking on Lomax between Oak and Riverside if you're willing to walk a block or two. I'm looking forward to this getting off the ground and filling in one of the last gaps on Margaret Street.
The other thing people don't realize about the parking situation is that yes, parking in 5-points can suck sometimes. But it's no indication of how well a business will do because so many people walk/bike to 5-points.
I personally have a hard time taking anyone seriously that doesn't want to walk a block or two from their car to where they're eating.
Quote from: RiversideLoki on August 12, 2010, 09:45:44 AM
The other thing people don't realize about the parking situation is that yes, parking in 5-points can suck sometimes. But it's no indication of how well a business will do because so many people walk/bike to 5-points.
I personally have a hard time taking anyone seriously that doesn't want to walk a block or two from their car to where they're eating.
Agreed! When I lived off James St last year I had no problem walking to 5-Points from there. I think if anything the "lack" of parking forces visitors to walk past the other stores and attractions in 5-Points instead of parking right in front of their desired location and walking straight in.
Quote from: RiversideLoki on August 12, 2010, 09:45:44 AM
The other thing people don't realize about the parking situation is that yes, parking in 5-points can suck sometimes. But it's no indication of how well a business will do because so many people walk/bike to 5-points.
I personally have a hard time taking anyone seriously that doesn't want to walk a block or two from their car to where they're eating.
Heck, we bike to 5 points from San Marco and Springfield - that way we can eat more when we get there!
I personally (being an avid biker) would like to see more attention toward bike racks and special areas designated for those riding bicycles. I think if more people see the attention toward alternative transportation, then more may be prone to ride and or walk. Hopefully the plans proposed have some cool bike racks incorporated into the development, after all it is the urban core and a good percentage of us do ride.
+1
I am planning on moving to Riverside in a couple months, and a big reason for it is the walkable/bikable nature of the area. Any place with a few spots for bikes would get my business. I think there are many people in the area who would love to bike, but don't, because there aren't adequate facilities for them.
All of us who live in Riverside and bike a lot to get places make do. The lamp posts, the trees, the fences in front of Mossfire and O'Brothers all get used. The tough one is the Publix complex. There is only one rack or the fence at Publix itself. European Street Cafe has a rack that is heavily used.
Wish some of the merchants in the area would put up some of those neat "bicycle topped" posts like they have on the Northbank Riverwalk. They don't take up much space.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 12, 2010, 09:13:52 AM
Parking problems are a good thing. It means people want to be in your district and increases the need for viable mass transit. Anyway, there's on-street parking on Lomax between Oak and Riverside if you're willing to walk a block or two. I'm looking forward to this getting off the ground and filling in one of the last gaps on Margaret Street.
Parking is also available in the garage in 1661 on the first and (maybe) second floors.
Quote from: Dog Walker on August 12, 2010, 10:40:55 AM
All of us who live in Riverside and bike a lot to get places make do. The lamp posts, the trees, the fences in front of Mossfire and O'Brothers all get used. The tough one is the Publix complex. There is only one rack or the fence at Publix itself. European Street Cafe has a rack that is heavily used.
Wish some of the merchants in the area would put up some of those neat "bicycle topped" posts like they have on the Northbank Riverwalk. They don't take up much space.
Agreed, we always make do, however that extra effort from the businesses shows possible customers (bikers) that they are welcome here. Obviously they are regardless but it just gives out a good impression. What I DONT want to see is some cheap tubed bike racks, if they are gonna do it, get creative, incorporate it into the design of the building. Anyone can throw up a cheap tubed bike rack. I am also a fan of the "bicycle topped" posts, however unless you're stacking friends bikes on top of friends bikes it can only hold so many without getting in others way. But as stated I'd rather see those than the cheap tubed racks.
^ Do you have any examples of creative bike racks?
Quote from: Captain Zissou on August 12, 2010, 11:00:06 AM
^ Do you have any examples of creative bike racks?
We have a lot of great artisan metal working talent in this city. I think something could be commissioned cheaply.
TONS of neat ideas...
(http://www.psfk.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/bike-rack-seating-nyc.jpg)
(http://www.bikingbis.com/_photos/Bikerack.sized.JPG)
(http://bikeblogs.org/sf/files/2008/08/artsy_bike_racks_nyc1.jpg)
(http://www.brokencitylab.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/bikerack.jpg)
(http://brokensidewalk.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/new_bike_racks_01.jpg)
I think its time businesses in the Riverside neighborhood be more like the beach. Nearly every business at the beach has a bike rack on or near their establishment.
I could care less what it looks like. Most racks at the beach are constantly full(Ive had people place their bikes on top of mine during busy days, lol).
Lamp post racks like the ones downtown would be great! I've got a mig welder, I'd tack them on myself :)
Quote from: RiversideLoki on August 12, 2010, 11:14:01 AM
Quote from: Captain Zissou on August 12, 2010, 11:00:06 AM
^ Do you have any examples of creative bike racks?
We have a lot of great artisan metal working talent in this city. I think something could be commissioned cheaply.
TONS of neat ideas...
(http://brokensidewalk.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/new_bike_racks_01.jpg)
This one is in Louisville, KY in the downtown district near the river. I've personally taken some pictures in front of it. I tried finding them but no luck. Another very neat downtown filled with people. HELLO JACKSONVILLE?! Take a look!
Quote from: wwanderlust on August 16, 2010, 09:11:29 AM
Dear god, let this place open soon. Five Points needs a place to get a decent meal (that isn't sushi).
Though I agree there are a lot of sushi places popping up, you must admit there is quite a nice selection in the 5-Points area now.
While the new building looks like it is going to be a good addition to the neighborhood, I'm disappointed that the group didn't consider using the building on the corner of Margaret and College Streets. It has plenty of parking and would save a beautiful old building.
Quote from: Dog Walker on August 18, 2010, 07:42:27 AM
While the new building looks like it is going to be a good addition to the neighborhood, I'm disappointed that the group didn't consider using the building on the corner of Margaret and College Streets. It has plenty of parking and would save a beautiful old building.
That is a beautiful building, but I always see that building as being some sort of B&B or law/medical offices. It doesn't seem like it'd make a good restaurant. If I had the cash and it were zoned residential, I'd have bought it up in a heartbeat. I dunno why the owner is sitting on it. Probably because he knows it's a great location.
Also, parking there isn't really viable. It would be offstreet on college only, or in the medical office across the street or in Pizza Palace's parking. And I don't think they'd enjoy sharing.
^ I don't think that building would be appropriate for a restaurant, especially not one looking to seat 120. It would be a great office or maybe retail. I love the building and I wish someone would restore it, but I don't think this would be the best use of it.
I would love to see RAP restore it and use it as their office space. If they moved and restored a new building every 3-5 years, that would be great for the neighborhood.
Actually there is a good deal of parking behind the building. The owner is desperate to get rid of it. I am pretty sure the mortgage holder now has it.
A couple of years ago it sold for almost $600K and had a new roof put on, but I bet you could get it for half that now. The interior has been stripped back to the studs and the original floor plan revealed.
How about a French restaurant called "Paris on the Park"?
Put a canopy over the tiled terrace in front for outdoor dining and it would make a great restaurant.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on August 18, 2010, 09:47:05 AM
^ I don't think that building would be appropriate for a restaurant, especially not one looking to seat 120. It would be a great office or maybe retail. I love the building and I wish someone would restore it, but I don't think this would be the best use of it.
I would love to see RAP restore it and use it as their office space. If they moved and restored a new building every 3-5 years, that would be great for the neighborhood.
Agreed... It is a fairly large structure but I feel that it isn't quite setup for the food industry. Offices would definately be a better option. That and it's a little distant from the rest of 5-Points. I like Black Sheeps choice in location.
For referance, this is the rendering of the previous project that was opposed.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-6875-oakstreet-sm.jpg)
I really am curious as to the differences in these two projects in relation to the parking issues that were previously raised? Im not rooting against this project, I genuinely am curious b/c the renderings don't seem much different.
okay, so we all love Orsay and Chew. Me included. However...
The proposed building shows no architectural imagination, the project is woefully short on parking, and it's a bit too big for the site.
Let's be honest, while we would all love to see more bicycles used for transportation, it's not reality in Jacksonville. It takes a determined biker to ride in this summer's heat and rain. Result: the customers and employees of these new enterprises will push parking further into the residential areas and impact negatively on all the surrounding businesses.
Until we have working mass transit it is unwise for the city to permit further exceptions to the parking requirements.
Instead of pounding a square peg in a round hole as Black Sheep is trying to do, why not look at alternate sites in the area. Restore an historic building for example.
[
Although I like the idea of the design. I really need to understand this bldg in relation to Mossfire. This bldg looks out of scale with the rest of the block. And although we see one side clearly I wonder what is on the other 2 sides of the triangular bldg.
Mr. Stephen Dare,
I respect your opinions and I agree that we do build for cars and very much want that to change. But until we have alternative transportation that works for most people, why not take the position that perhaps the better motto would be "Stop Building". Why must the neighborhood residents and nearby businesses suffer from "parking overload" simply because the developer demands that the city waive the requirements for parking?
Why not direct your displeasure at the JTA and demand better mass transit for example.
It's really unfortunate that 5-points is in this position. The solution that I would like to see is for all vehicular traffic in 5-points to be suspended from say 8 pm to 3 am Thurs - Sat, and really make this area a destination and not a thoroughfare. Wendy's drive-thru (among other things) makes that unfeasible as does the general ire drawn of people when you tell them they can't park directly in front of their destination. It's seems to be quite the dichotomy of the neighborhood, isn't it? We want new things close by so we can walk there, but we still want to be able to park our cars right out front. This lack of willingness to change is probably one of the reasons no one has tried to infill that parking lot empty space. Why do 'they' have to provide alternative transportation when I can think of 2 bike shops on park that can provide 'you' your own. I know Florida is stifling hot and muggy and rainy, but we still have no problem sitting on the patio with a drink and a smoke. No one's asking you to ride the Tour de France, just a few miles (depending on where you live)
RAP has just posted a detailed assessment of this project at www.riversideavondale.org/index.php?id=121. Largely positive about the modern design, less so about the mass and scale.
Dear Westsider,
Your suggestion that we need to ride our bikes to 5 Points is one I admire. Some of the establishments in 5 Points that cater to a young crowd do have patrons who arrive by bicycle. But let's be realistic: how many customers of Orsay or Chew or the new proposed restaurant do you think now ride, or will ride their bikes to the restaurant for dinner? I submit the answer is: none.
And wasn't the previous development proposal for this site denied for similar reasons?
Why the sudden support for this development? Orsay is a neighborhood favorite and deservedly so, but they must be treated equally under the law.
Thanks for listening.
Quote from: tayana42 on August 19, 2010, 11:38:33 PM
Dear Westsider,
Your suggestion that we need to ride our bikes to 5 Points is one I admire. Some of the establishments in 5 Points that cater to a young crowd do have patrons who arrive by bicycle. But let's be realistic: how many customers of Orsay or Chew or the new proposed restaurant do you think now ride, or will ride their bikes to the restaurant for dinner? I submit the answer is: none.
And wasn't the previous development proposal for this site denied for similar reasons?
Why the sudden support for this development? Orsay is a neighborhood favorite and deservedly so, but they must be treated equally under the law.
Thanks for listening.
You're so very right. I almost feel that I should apologize for suggesting such ridiculousness. I am assuming from your tone, you believe the only people who frequent Chew and Orsay are old or never learned how to ride a bike or possibly unable to walk.
I have a suggestion - Horse-Drawn Carriages with complimentary champagne, not the bubbly swill, but the real mc’coy from that region in France that escapes me at the moment. They shall call to make a reservation at the new restaurant, ( because of course it’s being opened only for them, the patrons of only Orsay and Chew) and a gallant, white steed shall arrive at their home, pulling a majestic carriage. (I suppose it would have to have AC for the stifling summer heat and probably a canopy of some sort for the sudden Florida rain-showers) This steed, we’ll call him Charlie…. Charlie will whisk the couple away for a magical dinner at restaurant unnamed, and they will sing of it’s praises.
I’m spitballing here, but maybe the restaurant unnamed is being built & designed for the people who frequent 5 points? You know, the young crowd who may not mind riding their bikes to go eat. Possibly the office level will be occupied by some of these dastardly , young people with their entrepreneurial spirit, bicycles and fresh ideas. Maybe it’s even possible, I dare to say it, that the residential units might be occupied by the business owners who work downstairs who go to the rooftop bar upstairs to relax after work, then go back to their condos downstairs and do it again the next day. UNBELIEVABLE!!!!!! I’m sure that no one has thought of this yet, especially the patrons of Chew and Orsay, and most especially whoever is trying to develop the property.
The support for this development and others like it is coming from those of us who work our asses off. It’s coming from those of us who are tired of seeing this city go down the shitter because everyone is so afraid to make the correct choice over the politically correct choice. It’s coming from those of us who don’t sit behind a parking spot with our blinker on for 5 minutes because we’re too lazy to walk 4 extra spaces. Support like this comes when it’s warranted. It only takes the right idea, and everyone will back it up, and we’re tired of wrong ideas and bad planning and social agendas and what everyone else wants for us. This is what we want and this is the support you get when others want what you do!
FIN
Somewhat off-topic, but relevant to a point made in Westsider's post, and really just a moderately poignant statement on parking lot politics...
I found myself in one of those awkward "do you want that spot?" face offs at the Roosevelt Publix earlier today. The spot was on the side which would have allowed me to easily nose in, but a full-size pickup carrying a couple people seemed to really want it, even though they were facing the wrong direction. I drove five spots further, pulled in, climbed out of the Jeep, walked past them, and was INSIDE THE STORE (yes, I turned around to check on their progress, since it seemed as I walked past that the pilot was having some trouble backing the awkwardly large vehicle into the spot) before they were even able to park...
And it's been mentioned before, but the whole ground floor level of 1661 Riverside is public parking. And it's always empty.
One more dichotomy we currently face:
During the weekday many professionals wear suits or dress up at least a little for work, and as long as we don't have air conditioned trains/trolleys (which are hard to keep air conditioned anyway in the dead of summer), if they are going to patronize 5 points or any other commercial zone, they will be in a car. The good news is that during lunch four or five people will travel in one car.
It's easy to limit parking or to designate "denser" zones car-free zones during certain hours, but enforcers of such policies will only take away the business lunch crowd and if these same lunch patrons aren't there seeing the area or spending money during the weekday, they may not be there at other times either (like on the weekend or weeknights).
If a city like Atlanta, which has the best public transportation in the south, still builds places to be reached by car (and also by train if close to a station), then we, having no form of real public transportation, cannot get away from including parking. There is a whole lot of underperforming asphalt on the East side of 5 points, and without looking up who the owners are, perhaps the best solution is to build a decent sized garage and then make things walkable from there, but there ultimately will need to be a place for cars. The city of Decatur just a few miles east of Atlanta has a few garages and then people can walk from place to place. Parking is easy and often free (the garages are city-owned and taken at a loss I think).
Quote from: Brian Siebenschuh on August 20, 2010, 12:57:20 AM
And it's been mentioned before, but the whole ground floor level of 1661 Riverside is public parking. And it's always empty.
And I digress...though if Riverside picks up a lot more, hopefully we'll face the positive problem of that not being enough parking!
Quote from: outofhere on August 19, 2010, 08:33:10 PM
Although I like the idea of the design. I really need to understand this bldg in relation to Mossfire. This bldg looks out of scale with the rest of the block. And although we see one side clearly I wonder what is on the other 2 sides of the triangular bldg.
It's my understanding that in the photo below, the small building on the far left is Mossfire, so that gives you some sense of the scale of the proposed building.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4139/4878947422_cd3b9cbd34.jpg)
Quote from: stephendare on August 19, 2010, 08:18:55 PM
More pressure for parking is greater pressure for mass transit.
STOP building for CARS!
exactly!
Quote from: tayana42 on August 19, 2010, 11:38:33 PM
Dear Westsider,
Your suggestion that we need to ride our bikes to 5 Points is one I admire. Some of the establishments in 5 Points that cater to a young crowd do have patrons who arrive by bicycle. But let's be realistic: how many customers of Orsay or Chew or the new proposed restaurant do you think now ride, or will ride their bikes to the restaurant for dinner? I submit the answer is: none.
And wasn't the previous development proposal for this site denied for similar reasons?
Why the sudden support for this development? Orsay is a neighborhood favorite and deservedly so, but they must be treated equally under the law.
Thanks for listening.
Tayana,
So you believe that the Fuel building and the other vacant spaces in 5 points should remain vacant also?
As they can not provide parking.
Most restaurants, retail and bars in Avondale, Five points, Downtown and San Marco can not provide the parking they are required.
Most if not all get some sort of parking exception/variance.
So you would prefer one of the most unique areas in Jacksonville to have it's growth stunted because of parking issues?
The Black Sheep group is adding as much parking as they can and the parking they will provide, undoubtedly will be used by patrons for all of the businesses in the area.
FYI: The previous developer is the same guy that ran Panera out of his building on Hendricks and has rubbed RAP and many others the wrong way. He wanted to put a Dunkin Donuts drive thru in the building. HE also had issues with RAP over a house he owned in the historical district.
Quote from: grimss on August 20, 2010, 08:20:14 AM
Quote from: outofhere on August 19, 2010, 08:33:10 PM
Although I like the idea of the design. I really need to understand this bldg in relation to Mossfire. This bldg looks out of scale with the rest of the block. And although we see one side clearly I wonder what is on the other 2 sides of the triangular bldg.
I guess one could argue that this design is appropriate in relation to the scale and size of the 1661 building? no?
It's my understanding that in the photo below, the small building on the far left is Mossfire, so that gives you some sense of the scale of the proposed building.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4139/4878947422_cd3b9cbd34.jpg)
QuoteI have a suggestion - Horse-Drawn Carriages with complimentary champagne, not the bubbly swill, but the real mc’coy from that region in France that escapes me at the moment. They shall call to make a reservation at the new restaurant, ( because of course it’s being opened only for them, the patrons of only Orsay and Chew) and a gallant, white steed shall arrive at their home, pulling a majestic carriage. (I suppose it would have to have AC for the stifling summer heat and probably a canopy of some sort for the sudden Florida rain-showers) This steed, we’ll call him Charlie…. Charlie will whisk the couple away for a magical dinner at restaurant unnamed, and they will sing of it’s praises.
LOL, its been a long week and that was pretty funny. Thanks :)
QuoteAnd it's been mentioned before, but the whole ground floor level of 1661 Riverside is public parking. And it's always empty
Really? Wow, I did NOT know that. Thank you!
QuoteI guess one could argue that this design is appropriate in relation to the scale and size of the 1661 building? no?
It's my understanding that in the photo below, the small building on the far left is Mossfire, so that gives you some sense of the scale of the proposed building.
Off topic, but nestliving.... really cool work on the interior of the new salon in five points!!!
QuoteI guess one could argue that this design is appropriate in relation to the scale and size of the 1661 building? no?
Valid point, but 1661 is set back from the lot line whereas this design, as presently conceived, is right up against the sidewalk and is immediately adjacent to Mossfire. 1661 sits in splendid isolation on its block.
The RAP article stresses how tall this building is. It's 3 stories with a small utility area on a 4th floor. The utility area will barely be noticeable from the ground. The whole front is glass and it narrows to a point on one end. This will have the footprint of a Ford F-350.
I too have concern about the materials they are going to use, but as far as the massing goes I'm fine.
Quote from: Brian Siebenschuh on August 20, 2010, 12:57:20 AMAnd it's been mentioned before, but the whole ground floor level of 1661 Riverside is public parking. And it's always empty.
Really? Thats good to know. I always assumed it was for residents/patrons of that building only.
as to the massing/size question....1661 is 5 stories and sits across the street from one-story shops...so who cares if this building is 3-4 stories and next to the 2-story Mossfire?
Quote from: grimss on August 20, 2010, 10:18:16 AM
QuoteI guess one could argue that this design is appropriate in relation to the scale and size of the 1661 building? no?
Valid point, but 1661 is set back from the lot line whereas this design, as presently conceived, is right up against the sidewalk and is immediately adjacent to Mossfire. 1661 sits in splendid isolation on its block.
Actually, the ground floor retail in 1661 is not set back from the lot line, it is adjacent to the sidewalk similar to the layout of this proposed building.
^ Doesn't the bottom floor of this building have a bunch of patio space anyway?? Other than the structural column on the corner, this building has as little mass as possible.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on August 20, 2010, 11:13:45 AM
^ Doesn't the bottom floor of this building have a bunch of patio space anyway?? Other than the structural column on the corner, this building has as little mass as possible.
From the rendering, it appears that the ground floor will have a significant amount of open space.
Most restaurants, retail and bars in Avondale, Five points, Downtown and San Marco can not provide the parking they are required.
Most if not all get some sort of parking exception/variance.
True and we will not be asking for an exception because we are exceeding our parking number.
The Black Sheep group is adding as much parking as they can and the parking they will provide, undoubtedly will be used by patrons for all of the businesses in the area.
All the parking we are adding will be open to the public
FYI: The previous developer is the same guy that ran Panera out of his building on Hendricks and has rubbed RAP and many others the wrong way. He wanted to put a Dunkin Donuts drive thru in the building. HE also had issues with RAP over a house he owned in the historical district.
Very informed and true comments
[/quote]
This is a perfect example of why I moved from Avondale to Riverside. I will soon have another fine restaurant an easy 2 block walk from my home on Herschel. Love my 5 Pts!
Nice work Allan and welcome to MetroJax. Best of luck going forward with the project and hopefully any existing live oaks on the lot can be protected as much as possible (water & laurel oaks will soon fall apart anyway).
Just an aside, but now all we need is a good Indian restaurant in the n'hood and I will never have to leave my bubble :) Can you work on that for us as well, Allan?
The building looks to use a lot of glass. If that is the case, massing at its presently designed size is irrelevant because glass reduces the "scale" of the building to something way more manageable. The glass will have reflections of the area and will break up the cement or whatever material they plan on using as long as it isn't that fake beige/tope mediterranean stucco so popular with developers here.
BTW, way off topic, but next to where the Chunky Chef used to be (now there is a hair studio there, on Bay across from Modis, I noticed a hollowed out space with an Asian themed garden inside and very cool modern woodwork. Does anyone know what that is? I took a picture of this place and will post in a downtown photo thread soon. I am just thinking of downtown and how sad it is that a restaurant like Chew has to/will be leaving the area.
Quote from: cline on August 20, 2010, 11:10:09 AM
Quote from: grimss on August 20, 2010, 10:18:16 AM
QuoteI guess one could argue that this design is appropriate in relation to the scale and size of the 1661 building? no?
Valid point, but 1661 is set back from the lot line whereas this design, as presently conceived, is right up against the sidewalk and is immediately adjacent to Mossfire. 1661 sits in splendid isolation on its block.
QuoteActually, the ground floor retail in 1661 is not set back from the lot line, it is adjacent to the sidewalk similar to the layout of this proposed building.
Just had lunch at Zoe's and I'm staring at about 6 feet of quite nice landscaping between the sidewalk and the covered walkway on the first floor of 1661.
Quote from: grimss on August 20, 2010, 02:27:41 PM
Quote from: cline on August 20, 2010, 11:10:09 AM
Quote from: grimss on August 20, 2010, 10:18:16 AM
QuoteI guess one could argue that this design is appropriate in relation to the scale and size of the 1661 building? no?
Valid point, but 1661 is set back from the lot line whereas this design, as presently conceived, is right up against the sidewalk and is immediately adjacent to Mossfire. 1661 sits in splendid isolation on its block.
QuoteActually, the ground floor retail in 1661 is not set back from the lot line, it is adjacent to the sidewalk similar to the layout of this proposed building.
Just had lunch at Zoe's and I'm staring at about 6 feet of quite nice landscaping between the sidewalk and the covered walkway on the first floor of 1661.
True. There is a strip of grass. Not sure that equals "splendid isolation" though. And the side that faces May Street is directly adjacent to the sidewalk.
While I often read the informative posts on Metro Jacksonville, I have rarely posted; please forgive my poor technical skills.
Here's a quote from Westsider:
I’m spitballing here, but maybe the restaurant unnamed is being built & designed for the people who frequent 5 points? You know, the young crowd who may not mind riding their bikes to go eat. Possibly the office level will be occupied by some of these dastardly , young people with their entrepreneurial spirit, bicycles and fresh ideas.
Dear Westsider,
It's sounds like you have never dined at Orsay or Chew, both among the very best our city has to offer, but also not inexpensive. Based on the development cost of this project, it's not likely that this restaurant is being designed for "the young crowd who don't mind riding their bikes to go to eat". I think any reasonable person will accept that the patrons of this new restaurant will not be coming by bicycle. In support of this argument, I suggest you go to the parking lots of Orsay, Chew, Biscottis, or The Brick, and note the absence of bicycles.
Here's a quote from the developer's public relations spinners:
" You can bet there will be a sizable bike rack to support the large number of cyclists in the community."
That's sounds cool but, according to the plan, it would appear that the sidewalks will be too narrow to allow for bike racks, especially "sizable" bike racks (even without bikes in them).
My point remains that the addition of a 120 seat restaurant, a floor of condominiums, a floor of offices, and a rooftop bar, means the addition of well over 100 additional vehicles added to the neighborhood at peak times. Yet only 23 new spaces are being proposed. That's adding a lot of cars and it will impact negatively on the residents who live nearby.
And don't think that some empty spaces in 1661 garage will solve the problem; it may help now, but once that building is fully occupied, any "public" spaces will likely be gone. And, I don't believe there is "public" parking in that garage, I think it's space for patrons of the building tenants.
These are difficult economic times and the addition of a new development in the neighborhood with added jobs is very, very appealing, especially when it includes one of our best restauranteurs. That should not mean a developer can expect waivers on significant elements of their plan. The zoning overlay was designed to benefit the community. Riverside is still recovering from very poor zoning laws enacted back in the 1960's; we don't want to return to that. The plan simply needs to address the issues that are being argued here.
I read the discussion put out by RAP and it sounds reasonable to me. The RAP discussion is posted somewhere earlier in this string.
^ Great post, Tenaya. DH and I had a nice discussion with one of the project partners last time we dined at Orsay, and I understand the restaurant concept will be a little more "5 Points Flexible" than the other Insetta projects. My general understanding, based on the posts, is that we all are enthusiastic about the project, but that many of us (me included) want to make sure the scale suits the neighborhood. This is TOTALLY feasible with a modern structure--indeed, I personally welcome that kind of design. But I'd also welcome a little setback, some more green, and some responsible parking solutions.
why are we worried about parking?
Modern design--great. And I don't care about parking either--I'll walk, bike, or park two blocks away. But considering that architects in Florida have done nothing but sit on their hands for the past three years during the recession, couldn't they have come up with something a little more dynamic than this boring design with that free time? It looks like it should be in Southpoint along Butler Boulevard. They definitely phoned this one in. Funky, eclectic Five Points deserves much better.
Don't like the proposed triangular building here? Try these for inspiration. ;)
(http://www.erickvanegeraat.com/Media/scaled/ea040_01.jpg)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2571/3896329160_3957637a4a_o.jpg)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_rSf1fgQ6Ldg/ScVkNO6kmsI/AAAAAAAACLw/YSweA6XY1Tg/s400/hih-6.jpg)
(http://www15.bni-hamburg.de/bni/bni2/neu2/inc_engl/Eutricod/Eutricod_pics/Modell.gif)
(http://www.gonback.com/canada/IMG/vancou04.jpg)
(http://www.rofo.com/content/buildings/108379/standard_518eca5fcca3ccfc22c04165382097e9.jpg)
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_CODIt1hII9Q/Sn4P5825meI/AAAAAAAAA2A/JvO5xCNYQdA/DSC_0027.JPG)
(http://designshrine.net/wp-content/plugins/wp-o-matic/cache/03133_yohji1.jpg)
(http://curbed.com/uploads/2008_9_one7th.jpg)
(http://img.groundspeak.com/waymarking/ddf260d6-c092-464e-bb3f-6040594d1da4.jpg)
(http://www.socketsite.com/1390%20Market%20Design.jpg)
(http://historicbuildingsct.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/flatiron-building-norwich-ct.jpg)
(http://www.mcphs.edu/campuses/boston/academics/assets/academic_building_project2.jpg)
Of course the most famous granddaddy of all triangular buildings, New York's Flatiron Building!
(http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/About/General/2009/1/27/1233047025891/Flatiron-building-New-Yor-001.jpg)
LOVE LOVE LOVE the Flatiron. I used to live right down the street from this--IMHO the coolest building ever!! (albeit with SUPER slow elevators). If you've ever heard the phrase, "23 Skidoo," it's tied to this building. In the early 20th century, carriages full of women used to stop near the base of the Flatiron building, adjacent to what was the original Madison Square Park. (This was a central shopping area of the day.) So many men would congregate to catch a glimpse of the women's ankles as they alighted (SO exciting) that policeman would station themselves there, at the corner of lower Fifth and 23rd, to keep the onlookers from pestering the women. They would say, "Skidoo!" (so cute), to shoo them away.
(http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd256/dellwooddaisy/IMG_0604.jpg)
Cozy Corner, Margaret and Dellwood in Five Points
Quote from: grimss on August 20, 2010, 11:24:28 PM
LOVE LOVE LOVE the Flatiron. I used to live right down the street from this--IMHO the coolest building ever!! (albeit with SUPER slow elevators). If you've ever heard the phrase, "23 Skidoo," it's tied to this building. In the early 20th century, carriages full of women used to stop near the base of the Flatiron building, adjacent to what was the original Madison Square Park. (This was a central shopping area of the day.) So many men would congregate to catch a glimpse of the women's ankles as they alighted (SO exciting) that policeman would station themselves there, at the corner of lower Fifth and 23rd, to keep the onlookers from pestering the women. They would say, "Skidoo!" (so cute), to shoo them away.
grimss - that's a good factoid. Jon's dad remembered the same when we began this project 4 months ago. We have yet to bring in a structural engineers to determine if the 5 Points pedestrians will get a similar show.
^ I suspect glimpses of ankles just don't do it for most guys anymore . . . :)
Quote from: stjr on August 20, 2010, 10:41:56 PM
Don't like the proposed triangular building here? Try these for inspiration. ;)
(http://www.mcphs.edu/campuses/boston/academics/assets/academic_building_project2.jpg)
I'm sort of favoring this one for some reason. It has that modern look with the fair amount of glass, yet still has that historical spin with the brick accents. Those are all pretty cool looking buildings none the less.
So, did some pondering on this morning's bike ride. A setback more similar to 1661 would be far more beneficial...
(http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/6456/insettagroup012.jpg)
but, how would that be acheived given the size of this lot?
(http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/8931/insettagroup004.jpg)
(http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/874/insettagroup003.jpg)
Especially since, as is my understanding part of the east side of the property will be configured to add more paking?
(http://img576.imageshack.us/img576/5508/insettagroup005.jpg)
Furthermore, how would the proposed design be any different from the existing street now? As you can see, its already a pretty crowded/squeezed pedestrian experience as it is...
(http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/9471/insettagroup001.jpg)
As you can see here, without subtracting parking(already a noted concern) there isn't much space to create this desired setback configuration.
(http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/9559/insettagroup002.jpg)
This is an interesting project.
The site is pretty small so it may be illogical, financially speaking, for the developer to reduce the building's square footage for additional landscaping. On the other hand, the public ROW is much wider than it has to be. Perhaps, the best answer is to reduce the width of the lanes in the road to make room for more sidewalk space.
Quote from: stjr on August 20, 2010, 10:41:56 PM
Don't like the proposed triangular building here? Try these for inspiration. ;)
(http://www.erickvanegeraat.com/Media/scaled/ea040_01.jpg)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2571/3896329160_3957637a4a_o.jpg)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_rSf1fgQ6Ldg/ScVkNO6kmsI/AAAAAAAACLw/YSweA6XY1Tg/s400/hih-6.jpg)
(http://www15.bni-hamburg.de/bni/bni2/neu2/inc_engl/Eutricod/Eutricod_pics/Modell.gif)
(http://www.gonback.com/canada/IMG/vancou04.jpg)
(http://www.rofo.com/content/buildings/108379/standard_518eca5fcca3ccfc22c04165382097e9.jpg)
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_CODIt1hII9Q/Sn4P5825meI/AAAAAAAAA2A/JvO5xCNYQdA/DSC_0027.JPG)
(http://designshrine.net/wp-content/plugins/wp-o-matic/cache/03133_yohji1.jpg)
(http://curbed.com/uploads/2008_9_one7th.jpg)
(http://img.groundspeak.com/waymarking/ddf260d6-c092-464e-bb3f-6040594d1da4.jpg)
(http://www.socketsite.com/1390%20Market%20Design.jpg)
(http://historicbuildingsct.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/flatiron-building-norwich-ct.jpg)
(http://www.mcphs.edu/campuses/boston/academics/assets/academic_building_project2.jpg)
Of course the most famous granddaddy of all triangular buildings, New York's Flatiron Building!
(http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/About/General/2009/1/27/1233047025891/Flatiron-building-New-Yor-001.jpg)
All of these design are so much more inspiring than what is being proposed.
Looking at Feldafm's photos of the site, the idea of a 120 seat restaurant, a floor of condominiums, a floor of offices, and a rooftop bar, just seems like the developer is trying to put way too much on this little piece of dirt.
All the triangle shaped building photos submitted earlier are built on larger, usually much larger pieces of land.
This project needs to be downsized by about 50% to work on this site.
The majority of the images of above are buildings that are much denser. A lot of the parcel sizes in the photo above also look to be similar in size.
(http://historicbuildingsct.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/flatiron-building-norwich-ct.jpg)
This looks like a four story building on a similar sized lot with no adjacent parking.
I fine with the density but does anyone know if what is proposed is denser than what is allowed on site by law?
Its my understanding that in the zoning meeting(they have to get a change in zoning to allow for a PUD) they will also have to ask for an exception to the 9' setback limit.
Maybe Kay can be more specific though...?
I understand the project was essentially green-lighted at the Planning Commission meeting last night, without any requirements for setbacks. Maybe someone who was there can provide additional information?