Black Sheep Restaurant Group Planning New Restaurant for 5 Points

[Captain Zissou]

^ Doesn't the bottom floor of this building have a bunch of patio space anyway??  Other than the structural column on the corner, this building has as little mass as possible.

[cline]

^ Doesn't the bottom floor of this building have a bunch of patio space anyway??  Other than the structural column on the corner, this building has as little mass as possible.

From the rendering, it appears that the ground floor will have a significant amount of open space.

[Allan D]

Most restaurants, retail and bars in Avondale, Five points, Downtown and San Marco can not provide the parking they are required.
Most if not all get some sort of parking exception/variance.

True and we will not be asking for an exception because we are exceeding our parking number.

The Black Sheep group is adding as much parking as they can and the parking they will provide, undoubtedly will be used by patrons for all of the businesses in the area.

All the parking we are adding will be open to the public

FYI: The previous developer is the same guy that ran Panera out of his building on Hendricks and has rubbed RAP and many others the wrong way. He wanted to put a Dunkin Donuts drive thru in the building. HE also had issues with RAP over a house he owned in the historical district.

Very informed and true comments








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[floridaforester]

This is a perfect example of why I moved from Avondale to Riverside.  I will soon have another fine restaurant an easy 2 block walk from my home on Herschel.  Love my 5 Pts!

Nice work Allan and welcome to MetroJax.  Best of luck going forward with the project and hopefully any existing live oaks on the lot can be protected as much as possible (water & laurel oaks will soon fall apart anyway).

Just an aside, but now all we need is a good Indian restaurant in the n'hood and I will never have to leave my bubble    Can you work on that for us as well, Allan?

[simms3]

The building looks to use a lot of glass.  If that is the case, massing at its presently designed size is irrelevant because glass reduces the "scale" of the building to something way more manageable.  The glass will have reflections of the area and will break up the cement or whatever material they plan on using as long as it isn't that fake beige/tope mediterranean stucco so popular with developers here.

BTW, way off topic, but next to where the Chunky Chef used to be (now there is a hair studio there, on Bay across from Modis, I noticed a hollowed out space with an Asian themed garden inside and very cool modern woodwork.  Does anyone know what that is?  I took a picture of this place and will post in a downtown photo thread soon.  I am just thinking of downtown and how sad it is that a restaurant like Chew has to/will be leaving the area.

[grimss]

I guess one could argue that this design is appropriate in relation to the scale and size of the 1661 building? no?

Valid point, but 1661 is set back from the lot line whereas this design, as presently conceived, is right up against the sidewalk and is immediately adjacent to Mossfire.  1661 sits in splendid isolation on its block.

Actually, the ground floor retail in 1661 is not set back from the lot line, it is adjacent to the sidewalk similar to the layout of this proposed building.

Just had lunch at Zoe's and I'm staring at about 6 feet of quite nice landscaping between the sidewalk and the covered walkway on the first floor of 1661.

[cline]

I guess one could argue that this design is appropriate in relation to the scale and size of the 1661 building? no?

Valid point, but 1661 is set back from the lot line whereas this design, as presently conceived, is right up against the sidewalk and is immediately adjacent to Mossfire.  1661 sits in splendid isolation on its block.

Actually, the ground floor retail in 1661 is not set back from the lot line, it is adjacent to the sidewalk similar to the layout of this proposed building.

Just had lunch at Zoe's and I'm staring at about 6 feet of quite nice landscaping between the sidewalk and the covered walkway on the first floor of 1661.

True.  There is a strip of grass.  Not sure that equals "splendid isolation" though.  And the side that faces May Street is directly adjacent to the sidewalk. 

[tayana42]

While I often read the informative posts on Metro Jacksonville, I have rarely posted; please forgive my poor technical skills.

Here's a quote from Westsider:
I’m  spitballing here, but maybe the restaurant unnamed is being built & designed for the people who frequent 5 points?  You know, the young crowd who may not mind riding their bikes to go eat.  Possibly the office level will be occupied by some of these dastardly , young people with their entrepreneurial spirit, bicycles and fresh ideas.  

Dear Westsider,
It's sounds like you have never dined at Orsay or Chew, both among the very best our city has to offer, but also not inexpensive.  Based on the development cost of this project, it's not likely that this restaurant is being designed for "the young crowd who don't mind riding their bikes to go to eat".   I think any reasonable person will accept that the patrons of this new restaurant will not be coming by bicycle.  In support of this argument, I suggest you go to the parking lots of Orsay, Chew, Biscottis, or The Brick, and note the absence of bicycles. 

Here's a quote from the developer's public relations spinners:
" You can bet there will be a sizable bike rack to support the large number of cyclists in the community."  

That's sounds cool but, according to the plan, it would appear that the sidewalks will be too narrow to allow for bike racks, especially "sizable" bike racks (even without bikes in them).

My point remains that the addition of a 120 seat restaurant, a floor of condominiums, a floor of offices, and a rooftop bar, means the addition of well over 100 additional vehicles added to the neighborhood at peak times.  Yet only 23 new spaces are being proposed.  That's adding a lot of cars and it will impact negatively on the residents who live nearby.

And don't think that some empty spaces in 1661 garage will solve the problem; it may help now, but once that building is fully occupied, any "public" spaces will likely be gone.  And, I don't believe there is "public" parking in that garage, I think it's space for patrons of the building tenants. 

These are difficult economic times and the addition of a new development in the neighborhood with added jobs is very, very appealing, especially when it includes one of our best restauranteurs.  That should not mean a developer can expect waivers on significant elements of their plan.  The zoning overlay was designed to benefit the community.  Riverside is still recovering from very poor zoning laws enacted back in the 1960's; we don't want to return to that.  The plan simply needs to address the issues that are being argued here.

I read the discussion put out by RAP and it sounds reasonable to me.  The RAP discussion is posted somewhere earlier in this string.

 

[grimss]

^ Great post, Tenaya. DH and I had a nice discussion with one of the project partners last time we dined at Orsay, and I understand the restaurant concept will be a little more "5 Points Flexible" than the other Insetta projects. My general understanding, based on the posts, is that we all are enthusiastic about the project, but that many of us (me included) want to make sure the scale suits the neighborhood. This is TOTALLY feasible with a modern structure--indeed, I personally welcome that kind of design.   But I'd also welcome a little setback, some more green, and some responsible parking solutions.

[nestliving]

why are we worried about parking?

[ubben]

Modern design--great. And I don't care about parking either--I'll walk, bike, or park two blocks away. But considering that architects in Florida have done nothing but sit on their hands for the past three years during the recession, couldn't they have come up with something a little more dynamic than this boring design with that free time? It looks like it should be in Southpoint along Butler Boulevard. They definitely phoned this one in. Funky, eclectic Five Points deserves much better.

[stjr]

Don't like the proposed triangular building here?  Try these for inspiration.  



























Of course the most famous granddaddy of all triangular buildings, New York's Flatiron Building!

[grimss]

LOVE LOVE LOVE the Flatiron. I used to live right down the street from this--IMHO the coolest building ever!! (albeit with SUPER slow elevators). If you've ever heard the phrase, "23 Skidoo," it's tied to this building. In the early 20th century, carriages full of women used to stop near the base of the Flatiron building, adjacent to what was the original Madison Square Park. (This was a central shopping area of the day.) So many men would congregate to catch a glimpse of the women's ankles as they alighted (SO exciting) that policeman would station themselves there, at the corner of lower Fifth and 23rd, to keep the onlookers from pestering the women. They would say, "Skidoo!" (so cute), to shoo them away.

[Jumpinjack]

Cozy Corner, Margaret and Dellwood in Five Points

[Allan D]

LOVE LOVE LOVE the Flatiron. I used to live right down the street from this--IMHO the coolest building ever!! (albeit with SUPER slow elevators). If you've ever heard the phrase, "23 Skidoo," it's tied to this building. In the early 20th century, carriages full of women used to stop near the base of the Flatiron building, adjacent to what was the original Madison Square Park. (This was a central shopping area of the day.) So many men would congregate to catch a glimpse of the women's ankles as they alighted (SO exciting) that policeman would station themselves there, at the corner of lower Fifth and 23rd, to keep the onlookers from pestering the women. They would say, "Skidoo!" (so cute), to shoo them away.

grimss - that's a good factoid.  Jon's dad remembered the same when we began this project 4 months ago.  We have yet to bring in a structural engineers to determine if the 5 Points pedestrians will get a similar show.