QuoteTwisted Martini is closing at The Jacksonville Landing on Saturday. The club has posted the announcement on its website.
A spokeswoman for the Landing said the same owners plan to renovate the 7,613-square-foot club and reopen by early fall with a new name and a new theme. She didn't have any more details, and the club's management has not yet responded to phone calls.
Twisted Martini opened in 2005. A second location opened in Ponte Vedra Beach but it closed in 2008.
http://jacksonville.com/business/2010-08-06/story/twisted-martini-closing-landing
Quote from: thelakelander on August 06, 2010, 06:15:46 PM
QuoteTwisted Martini is closing at The Jacksonville Landing on Saturday. The club has posted the announcement on its website.
A spokeswoman for the Landing said the same owners plan to renovate the 7,613-square-foot club and reopen by early fall with a new name and a new theme. She didn't have any more details, and the club's management has not yet responded to phone calls.
Twisted Martini opened in 2005. A second location opened in Ponte Vedra Beach but it closed in 2008.
http://jacksonville.com/business/2010-08-06/story/twisted-martini-closing-landing
atleast they are not closing for good. I cant wait to see what they come up with.
The only club that I can see going the long haul is Maverick's.
Quote from: stephendare on August 06, 2010, 06:17:49 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on August 06, 2010, 06:15:46 PM
QuoteTwisted Martini is closing at The Jacksonville Landing on Saturday. The club has posted the announcement on its website.
A spokeswoman for the Landing said the same owners plan to renovate the 7,613-square-foot club and reopen by early fall with a new name and a new theme. She didn't have any more details, and the club's management has not yet responded to phone calls.
Twisted Martini opened in 2005. A second location opened in Ponte Vedra Beach but it closed in 2008.
http://jacksonville.com/business/2010-08-06/story/twisted-martini-closing-landing
Well its not so much a closing as an update and renovation.
Clubs at a location like the landing have to do this every couple of years.
It kinda like "rebranding" in other words. I feel you
Gotta open the doors prior to FL/GA weekend!
If they make it a Latin salsa place that'd be great - would bring much activity and energy more than any other genre.
Isn't this rather sudden? Why not announce ahead of time that Sunday was the last night of Twisted Martini and throw a big party? Something is fishy.
Yeah I was wondering why the outside bar wasn't open during Art Walk. I guess they were already in the process of closing shop.
From today's Daily Record.
After five years as one of Downtown’s most popular night spots, The Twisted Martini at the Landing is closed. A source close to the club said the space will undergo a complete rebranding and will reopen, possibly as a “jungle-themed river cafe.â€
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
Was it broken? Admittedly I wasn't down there a lot during prime hunting hours, as it were, but the place always seemed hopping whenever I was there.
Is this a rebranding for the sake of rebranding or was it failing?
A jungle themed river cafe??? So, we are down to one nightspot at the landing, and it is a honky tonk joint. Awesome.
Quote from: fsujax on August 09, 2010, 11:31:49 AM
From today's Daily Record.
After five years as one of Downtown’s most popular night spots, The Twisted Martini at the Landing is closed. A source close to the club said the space will undergo a complete rebranding and will reopen, possibly as a “jungle-themed river cafe.”
Um...huh? Jungle-themed river cafe?
Hopefully Jungle themed is a poor description. I hope it is Jaguar themed. We don't need a Rainforest Cafe at the Landing.
Sounds like a potential disaster waiting to happen.
I just downgraded the Landing, again.
Any news on Fuddrucker's?
Just kidding.
Isn't Twisted and Mavericks owned by the same people? I hope Mavericks is doing well because a "jungle themed cafe" does not sound like anything that will draw people to the landing to visit. How about changing Twisted Martini to Blue Martini...
Quote from: copperfiend on August 09, 2010, 12:06:30 PM
Sounds like a potential disaster waiting to happen.
agreed
Quote from: comncense on August 09, 2010, 12:26:40 PM
Isn't Twisted and Mavericks owned by the same people? I hope Mavericks is doing well because a "jungle themed cafe" does not sound like anything that will draw people to the landing to visit. How about changing Twisted Martini to Blue Martini...
yes they are owned and managed by the same people...foot traffic at twisted had declined significantly over the last year....which as Stephen pointed out, is typical for clubs every 3-5 years
Quote from: copperfiend on August 09, 2010, 12:06:30 PM
Sounds like a potential disaster waiting to happen.
It already did.
Quote from: copperfiend on August 09, 2010, 12:17:01 PM
Any news on Fuddrucker's?
Just kidding.
You made me chuckle out loud. Thanks copper!
Kinda hard imagining Twisted Martini not being at the Landing. The last thing I remember in that spot before Twisted was the restaurant Huey's.
Twisted Martini in Ponte Vedra is now "Karma" and looks interesting... hopefully they do something fun with the Twisted space. I was there a few weeks ago and service was awful. Drink that I had the patience to finish was so-so.
I have to ask "Jungle Themed Cafe"?
don't worry CS...I doubt you ever stepped into Twisted (or the Landing in the last 5 years for that matter)...so whatever theme they choose shouldnt impact you much ;)
Quotehopefully they do something fun with the Twisted space. I was there a few weeks ago and service was awful. Drink that I had the patience to finish was so-so.
Yep... I used to be in there on a fairly regular basis... over time the best bartenders moved on, prices went up, service went down and the food became blech... Not really a surprise it is closing.
We are creeping up on a year since Twisted Martini closed and we have update (sort of) from the T-U. The owner's Twisted Martini update in PVB is now closed. I assume the empty spot at the Landing will remain empty and we won't get our jungle cafe.
QuoteSubmitted by Gary Mills on May 24, 2011 - 12:41pm
Dining Notes
Ponte Vedra restaurant/nightclub Karma has closed.
The restaurant's updated website confirmed recent rumors that it was closing following The Players Championship earlier this month. And in April, Karma reduced its hours of operation to Friday and Saturday evenings only.
Karma opened in late July in the former Twisted Martini location, and received mostly positive reviews, including one from our own reviewer.
At the time, the restaurant's owners also operated a Twisted Martini and Maverick's Rock N' Honky Tonk at The Jacksonville Landing. Twisted Martini closed in August. At the time, a Landing spokeswoman told the Times-Union that Twisted's owners planned to renovate and reopen the space with a new theme.
The space remains closed.
http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/423471/gary-mills/2011-05-24/ponte-vedra-restaurant-closes
actually I had heard the Twisted folks walked away when Sleiman tried to up their rent....the folks who own Vino's and Benny's then agreed to rent the space and open an Irish Pub....guess that didn't work out either!
Maybe we can get a Fuddruckers in there ;)
Quote from: cline on May 25, 2011, 04:29:49 PM
Maybe we can get a Fuddruckers in there ;)
I heard IKEA was going to rent the space for their new concept, IKEA LITE.
I have an idea - I know this sounds crazy but - VIDEO ARCADE.
I doubt the Landing ever becomes relevant in the nightlife scene. Places keep opening at Jax Beach and near Tinseltown. The Landing is in neutral going up a hill.
There's room for the Landing to be a player, as well as many other clusters around town. After all, we have over 1.3 million people living in metro Jacksonville.
I agree it "can" be. But I don't know that it "will" be.
Quote from: Bativac on May 25, 2011, 04:32:30 PM
Quote from: cline on May 25, 2011, 04:29:49 PM
Maybe we can get a Fuddruckers in there ;)
I heard IKEA was going to rent the space for their new concept, IKEA LITE.
I have an idea - I know this sounds crazy but - VIDEO ARCADE.
That would be very cool, and the whole family can enjoy it. Or, just give the kids a handful of quarters and tell them to get lost for a while.
Quote from: copperfiend on May 25, 2011, 04:35:26 PM
I doubt the Landing ever becomes relevant in the nightlife scene. Places keep opening at Jax Beach and near Tinseltown. The Landing is in neutral going up a hill.
Meh. With the mobility plan finally moving forward and streetcar passing by or near the Landing with termini in Avondale and Springfield, another line to the Stadium, and the burgeoning Bay Street stuff, I think it might be just fine in the long run.
And if Sleiman doesn't jack the rent so high that he runs everyone else out in the meantime.
Quote from: urbaknight on May 25, 2011, 04:42:22 PM
Quote from: Bativac on May 25, 2011, 04:32:30 PM
Quote from: cline on May 25, 2011, 04:29:49 PM
Maybe we can get a Fuddruckers in there ;)
I heard IKEA was going to rent the space for their new concept, IKEA LITE.
I have an idea - I know this sounds crazy but - VIDEO ARCADE.
That would be very cool, and the whole family can enjoy it. Or, just give the kids a handful of quarters and tell them to get lost for a while.
Really? We've digressed to giving credence to converting one of the city's finest riverfront sites into a dark, indoor video-game environment?
Our riverfront has the potential to be one of the country's GREAT WATERFRONTS. We need to think greater than Video Arcades and Theme Parks.
forget Fuddruckers or IKEA...let's go with Bass Pro Shops...and give them tax breaks just like Tampa is considering :)
http://www2.tbo.com/business/business/2011/may/25/4/bass-pro-shops-tax-break-negotiations-continue-ar-232533/
The Landing isn't losing tenants b/c of a greedy landlord... let's make that very clear.
A shrinking working population, recession and a year long road construction project have made life very difficult for a lot of restaurants.
And there was a video arcade for many years... where Mavericks(former Paris) is located
True. It's kind of silly to expect the Landing to be a grand success when the downtown environment surrounding it is in a serious decline.
Quote from: fieldafm on May 25, 2011, 05:21:37 PM
The Landing isn't losing tenants b/c of a greedy landlord... let's make that very clear.
well let's also be fair...the landlord is geared to suburban shopping centers...generally filled with relatively low-end local and big box stores....plus many of the centers are half empty (and they get a tax credit if they stay empty).
and then there's also the sitll decent level of visitors that come to town...heck, how many people will be downtown this weekend?
so maybe it isn't as simple as blaming the Landing's struggles solely on declining office populations and lack of enough dedicated parking
Quote from: fieldafm on May 25, 2011, 05:21:37 PM
And there was a video arcade for many years... where Mavericks(former Paris) is located
...and it was the best use of that space (so far). Made me love going to the Landing as a kid.
Maybe it's just time to stop looking for who to blame and get to work on fixing the problems? DT will never look good if it's main attraction remains empty and outdated.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 25, 2011, 09:56:03 PM
Maybe it's just time to stop looking for who to blame and get to work on fixing the problems? DT will never look good if it's main attraction remains empty and outdated.
now that I can agree with
Quote from: thelakelander on May 25, 2011, 09:56:03 PM
Maybe it's just time to stop looking for who to blame and get to work on fixing the problems? DT will never look good if it's main attraction remains empty and outdated.
People would still find their way there if they thought it was worth it. The Landing has a ton of potential & really should be the main attraction to downtown & all the adjacent neighborhoods. It's certainly big enough.
To me, it just seems like it's poorly managed & in the middle of an unfinished Riverwalk. There's a lot of annoyances with the Landing. The fountain in the square is only on half the time, the food court is pretty terrible & generic (and way overpriced), the stage outside looks really crappy with a banner that looks like it costs about $10 to make, the clientele a lot of times is pretty rednecky, the big screen is so pixelated that you can't even tell what you're looking at, etc.
Oh, and just try to get something simple like a bottle of water anywhere on the property with a credit card. Sure you can do it, but you'll also be required to buy a bunch of other stuff because all the places have something like a $5 minimum purchase (which is just idiotic & drives people away). This isn't some high class establishment, so save the minimum purchase crap for some other time when things aren't going downhill.
So yeah, the place needs a lot of thought. It's nothing really major, just some management that doesn't have it's head up it's ass.
The fountain and courtyard itself is actually city owned property. Hopefully, Alvin Brown's administration will be able to come to some sort of resolution with Sleiman.
It would be great if we could move the Landing and place it right where the old courthouse is currently. Then it would be closely attached to the "Entertainment" district. Maybe they both could feed off of each other. I would like to see another bar or lounge go back into the Twisted Martini area. Maybe Sleiman doesn't understand the saying "Some money is better than no money". You can't realistic ask for a high amount of rent in the condition that the Landing is in I would think.
Twisted Martini sucked. That's why it closed.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 26, 2011, 08:39:10 AM
Twisted Martini sucked. That's why it closed.
What did you find "sucky"?
Quote from: comncense on May 26, 2011, 08:35:30 AM
It would be great if we could move the Landing and place it right where the old courthouse is currently. Then it would be closely attached to the "Entertainment" district. Maybe they both could feed off of each other. I would like to see another bar or lounge go back into the Twisted Martini area. Maybe Sleiman doesn't understand the saying "Some money is better than no money". You can't realistic ask for a high amount of rent in the condition that the Landing is in I would think.
I think the Landing issues need to be addressed from a holistic viewpoint. The City/Sleiman will need to come to some resolution on land ownership/maintenance responsibility/dedicated parking, etc. for anything significant to happen with the retail center. I don't know what the rental rates are but it appears that they are already giving a ton of places little to free rent. My guess would be that even at the rate he purchased it, it has to be a money loser in his portfolio. The only true way to turn that around is to finally get control of the major problems the plague the center and the surrounding downtown environment.
The Landing needs an entire revamp. It is old and outdated. My parents used to take us there when it opened and it literally looks the same. But I dont see that happening anytime soon.
at least they added new lights out front! it's a first step. haha
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 26, 2011, 08:51:39 AM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on May 26, 2011, 08:42:11 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 26, 2011, 08:39:10 AM
Twisted Martini sucked. That's why it closed.
What did you find "sucky"?
The service!
really? because I never had any problem getting food or drinks...and I believe the owners of Dos Gatos used to work there...and they do pretty a good job with service.
Quote from: tufsu1 on May 26, 2011, 10:52:36 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 26, 2011, 08:51:39 AM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on May 26, 2011, 08:42:11 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 26, 2011, 08:39:10 AM
Twisted Martini sucked. That's why it closed.
What did you find "sucky"?
The service!
really? because I never had any problem getting food or drinks...and I believe the owners of Dos Gatos used to work there...and they do pretty a good job with service.
Yeah, I only went there once and it was such a nightmare I never went back again. This was the review I wrote about it back when it happened;
Quote
My friend Jeff I were out in my boat, and we were coming back through downtown after night fell, and we figured we'd pop into the landing for some drinks. The place wasn't that busy, but it took 20 minutes for the bartender to acknowledge us and take a drink order, 45 minutes for the (obviously fresh from the microwave) food to arrive, and meanwhile we were still waiting for the second round of drinks that was ordered a half-hour ago and never arrived.
When we were ready to leave, I snagged the waitress and asked for the check. 10 minutes go by. 20. 30. We were seated by the bar, and the bartender was walking by and asked whether we wanted anything else. I repeated "just the check". Another 10+ minutes go by. At this point, the bartender is studiously avoiding making eye contact with us, lest he be forced to go in search for our missing server.
Now I'm getting fed up, and am tired out from being out on the water all day. I said "F*ck it, we're leaving" and we walked out. It was probably about 10pm at this point. I would have left cash, but all I had was my credit card, and I'd asked for the check literally 5 times and waited 40 minutes for it by that point. Frustrating.
So after walking out, we made it all the way down the ramp to the boat dock, and I was already onboard with one engine running and just finishing starting up the other one. Jeff had already untied the bow and spring lines, and was undoing the stern line. At this point, their oversized bouncer bounds up to the railing over the boat dock, and yells at me "hey asshole, you didn't pay, get your ass back up here we called the cops". I had the side window open, and yelled back "I asked for the check ten times and waited an hour for it, you guys had your chance, I'm leaving."
At this point, he starts running towards us down the metal ramp to the boat dock, and Jeff was finished with the stern line and said "just go". So I pulled the boat back from the dock about 20', and the bouncer is still yelling at me, and I'm screwing with him saying "Ok, tough guy, what are you going to do, swim? Come on...let's see it."
Anyway, we headed off and that was the end of it. This place was an atrocious bunch of assholes though, and I wouldn't go back there if you paid me.
The only thing I found 'sucky' about Twisted Martini is they seemed to rely on the "Video DJ" thing instead of having a real DJ. I thought it was pretty cheesy. Not to mention it seemed to be the same music and videos playing every week. I never had a problem with getting drinks there though.
heh, that's a pretty funny story Chris. I've had that happen at a few places but never to that extreme though.
Quote
It would be great if we could move the Landing and place it right where the old courthouse is currently. Then it would be closely attached to the "Entertainment" district. Maybe they both could feed off of each other. I would like to see another bar or lounge go back into the Twisted Martini area. Maybe Sleiman doesn't understand the saying "Some money is better than no money". You can't realistic ask for a high amount of rent in the condition that the Landing is in I would think.
I think the Laura Street skyscrapers should better address the street. That would bring the entertainment district all the way to the Landing. Ivy's and Lit are 3 blocks from the Landing, but those blocks are populated by empty streets, dark buildings, and homeless people. People aren't going to make that walk. If there was something at Bay and Laura that people could see from Ivy's and walk to, that would complete the circuit. You would then have 6 consecutive blocks of nightlife and foot traffic all the way from the Landing to TSI.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 26, 2011, 11:08:47 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on May 26, 2011, 10:52:36 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 26, 2011, 08:51:39 AM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on May 26, 2011, 08:42:11 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 26, 2011, 08:39:10 AM
Twisted Martini sucked. That's why it closed.
What did you find "sucky"?
The service!
really? because I never had any problem getting food or drinks...and I believe the owners of Dos Gatos used to work there...and they do pretty a good job with service.
Yeah, I only went there once and it was such a nightmare I never went back again. This was the review I wrote about it back when it happened;
Quote
My friend Jeff I were out in my boat, and we were coming back through downtown after night fell, and we figured we'd pop into the landing for some drinks. The place wasn't that busy, but it took 20 minutes for the bartender to acknowledge us and take a drink order, 45 minutes for the (obviously fresh from the microwave) food to arrive, and meanwhile we were still waiting for the second round of drinks that was ordered a half-hour ago and never arrived.
When we were ready to leave, I snagged the waitress and asked for the check. 10 minutes go by. 20. 30. We were seated by the bar, and the bartender was walking by and asked whether we wanted anything else. I repeated "just the check". Another 10+ minutes go by. At this point, the bartender is studiously avoiding making eye contact with us, lest he be forced to go in search for our missing server.
Now I'm getting fed up, and am tired out from being out on the water all day. I said "F*ck it, we're leaving" and we walked out. It was probably about 10pm at this point. I would have left cash, but all I had was my credit card, and I'd asked for the check literally 5 times and waited 40 minutes for it by that point. Frustrating.
So after walking out, we made it all the way down the ramp to the boat dock, and I was already onboard with one engine running and just finishing starting up the other one. Jeff had already untied the bow and spring lines, and was undoing the stern line. At this point, their oversized bouncer bounds up to the railing over the boat dock, and yells at me "hey asshole, you didn't pay, get your ass back up here we called the cops". I had the side window open, and yelled back "I asked for the check ten times and waited an hour for it, you guys had your chance, I'm leaving."
At this point, he starts running towards us down the metal ramp to the boat dock, and Jeff was finished with the stern line and said "just go". So I pulled the boat back from the dock about 20', and the bouncer is still yelling at me, and I'm screwing with him saying "Ok, tough guy, what are you going to do, swim? Come on...let's see it."
Anyway, we headed off and that was the end of it. This place was an atrocious bunch of assholes though, and I wouldn't go back there if you paid me.
I never had anything like that happen to me there. In fact the service, drinks, and food were generally pretty top notch. When it opened twisted had some of the best 'tenders in Jax and the food selection was considered very good. IMHO Twisted began its slow decline occurred around the time they loosened the dress code standards. Personally I am not much of a "dress code" person myself but service began to get sloppy and the great 'tenders were replaced by OK 'tenders and staff. The food definitely suffered. They had the best Happy hour downtown for quite awhile...
Speaking of Twisted Martini, isn't Mavericks owned by the same people that owned it? I thought they took over that spot after Club Paris got the boot. I just wonder how they are doing in terms of business. Country bars are such a niche market that it probably does better than a regular club would do there.
yes...from what I can tell, Mavericks is doing ok...they operate as a country bar and occasional live music venue...Cage the Elephant was there last weekend
Quotethe landlord is geared to suburban shopping centers
Lets be fair, that same landlord that ‘doesn’t know what he’s doing apparently b/c he just knows stipmalls’ was also involved with the Jax Beach Town Center that helped transform Jax Beach from a woefully neglected shthole into a vibrant center of activity. That worked out pretty well, didn’t it?
QuoteTo me, it just seems like it's poorly managed & in the middle of an unfinished Riverwalk.
I walk from RAM to the Landing every weekend. The only part that is unfinished is the portion that goes from Berkman to Met Park. The Northbank Riverwalk currently connects any node of activity that exists along the shore of the St Johns with the Landing.
QuoteOh, and just try to get something simple like a bottle of water anywhere on the property with a credit card. Sure you can do it, but you'll also be required to buy a bunch of other stuff because all the places have something like a $5 minimum purchase (which is just idiotic & drives people away). This isn't some high class establishment, so save the minimum purchase crap for some other time when things aren't going downhill.
There’s only two places that do that, and it’s certainly not without precedent anywhere else in the city. I can name 10 places off the top of my head in Riverside that do the same. The Landing's available facilities are for the most part move-in ready. The same can't be said for a large number of empty storefronts in Riverside and Springfield.
QuoteIt's nothing really major, just some management that doesn't have it's head up it's ass.
Please share your experience in commercial property mgmt…
QuoteYou can't realistic ask for a high amount of rent in the condition that the Landing is in I would think.
Riverfront rent is EXTREMELY reasonable at the Landing. There are currently about 6 places participating in the Off The Grid program which offers either free or reduced rent with utility responsibility. Rent is NOT the problem.
QuoteThe City/Sleiman will need to come to some resolution on land ownership/maintenance responsibility/dedicated parking, etc. for anything significant to happen with the retail center.
QuoteI think the Laura Street skyscrapers should better address the street.
Finally, some voice of reason... thank you!
QuoteLets be fair, that same landlord that ‘doesn’t know what he’s doing apparently b/c he just knows stipmalls’ was also involved with the Jax Beach Town Center that helped transform Jax Beach from a woefully neglected shthole into a vibrant center of activity. That worked out pretty well, didn’t it?
Actually, to "be fair", the Jacksonville Beach planning department, specifically Steve Lindorff, should be the ones credited with transforming DT Jax Beach. He was the one that basically put in place the Downtown CRA as well as its funding source that funded all of the new infrastructure. That was the true mechanism that transformed downtown Jax Beach.
At any rate, could he at least paint the outside of the Landing. It looks horrible and new paint would go a long way.
QuoteActually, to "be fair", the Jacksonville Beach planning department, specifically Steve Lindorff, should be the ones credited with transforming DT Jax Beach. He was the one that basically put in place the Downtown CRA as well as its funding source that funded all of the new infrastructure. That was the true mechanism that transformed downtown Jax Beach.
Oh, you mean a government that was dedicated to rejuvinating their core, and instead of fueling the fires of a decades-old family feud, actually took a holistic approach to redevelopment and worked with willing developers?
Thank you for further proving my point.
Quote from: fieldafm on May 26, 2011, 02:35:43 PM
QuoteActually, to "be fair", the Jacksonville Beach planning department, specifically Steve Lindorff, should be the ones credited with transforming DT Jax Beach. He was the one that basically put in place the Downtown CRA as well as its funding source that funded all of the new infrastructure. That was the true mechanism that transformed downtown Jax Beach.
Oh, you mean a government that was dedicated to rejuvinating their core, and instead of fueling the fires of a decades-old family feud, actually took a holistic approach to redevelopment and worked with willing developers?
Thank you for further proving my point.
As was mentioned earlier, it is going to take a compromise from both parties to get this done. At this point it doesn't look like either one is willing to budge so you can't place all the blame on the City.
Quote from: fieldafm on May 26, 2011, 02:15:32 PM
QuoteOh, and just try to get something simple like a bottle of water anywhere on the property with a credit card. Sure you can do it, but you'll also be required to buy a bunch of other stuff because all the places have something like a $5 minimum purchase (which is just idiotic & drives people away). This isn't some high class establishment, so save the minimum purchase crap for some other time when things aren't going downhill.
There’s only two places that do that, and it’s certainly not without precedent anywhere else in the city. I can name 10 places off the top of my head in Riverside that do the same. The Landing's available facilities are for the most part move-in ready. The same can't be said for a large number of empty storefronts in Riverside and Springfield.
Well, all I can say is that you need to go back & count, because almost every place in there does it in some form. Most post signs, but some don't & it's just an unwritten rule they go by.
I'll tell you what. You post the two you know of & then I'll post the six we counted the other day when my wife was trying to get a simple drink of water for our kid.
Downstairs, Village Bread isn't open on the weekend.. so that's not it. Starbucks never had a min credit card amount. Sundrez does as well as Apple a Day. The cookie place only accepts cash. Those are the only spots downstairs besides the restaurants/bars that sell bottled water.
I understand your frustration, b/c I rarely carry cash... but do you go to Art Walk or RAM and expect to be able to buy everything you want by credit card? Having min charges on credit cards aren't unusual in any city you go.
You also could have probably asked nicely at one of the restaurants and they would have given your kid a to-go water. Give one of the bartenders at Hooters a dollar tip and be polite and I'm quite sure they would have no problem pouring you a cup with a straw for your child. They are moms too you know :)
Quote from: fieldafm on May 26, 2011, 05:08:47 PM
Downstairs, Village Bread isn't open on the weekend.. so that's not it. Starbucks never had a min credit card amount. Sundrez does as well as Apple a Day. The cookie place only accepts cash. Those are the only spots downstairs besides the restaurants/bars that sell bottled water.
Bottled water, a fountain drink, whatever. The point is, no place would do it without buying more stuff. And this was the places you mentioned, plus the ice cream shop, the bars, all the food court places, etc. So I really dont know what you want me to say. They all have minimum purchases. Finally one of the food workers upstairs felt sorry for us & sold us a large lemonade for $3. Yippee. :-\
No other mall-like places in town do this (Random Riverside stores on the street doing it has nothing to do with anything. This isnt Riverside, its a mall/entertainment venue). I dont expect that at Avenues, SJTC, etc & I wouldnt expect it at the Landing either. Especially when no one's even walking around over there & the businesses are mostly dead. But, there it is.
Quote from: fieldafm on May 26, 2011, 05:08:47 PM
I understand your frustration, b/c I rarely carry cash... but do you go to Art Walk or RAM and expect to be able to buy everything you want by credit card? Having min charges on credit cards aren't unusual in any city you go.
Again, apples & oranges. But since you asked, in this day & age of iPhones, smartphones & payment dongles like Square payment, there's really no reason why a random artist trying to sell their stuff couldnt accept cc payments. Its as simple as selling something & not selling something. I dont know many people who carry wads of cash around on them today.
Quote from: fieldafm on May 26, 2011, 05:08:47 PM
You also could have probably asked nicely at one of the restaurants and they would have given your kid a to-go water. Give one of the bartenders at Hooters a dollar tip and be polite and I'm quite sure they would have no problem pouring you a cup with a straw for your child. They are moms too you know :)
I love Hooters & all (I'm friends w a girl who works the Landing Hooters actually), but no. Thats taking it pretty far just to get some water or a soda. Most people would just leave before they'd do that.
Sorry, but no amount of spinning is not gonna make this kind of stuff not suck. And its just one of the annoyances with this place. And its not that I actually really care that much (Im sure I'll be back), just saying most people would probably be turned off by it. And from the looks of the crowd (or no crowd), stuff like that isn't helping none I'd say.
+1 to peestandingup
The stores at the landing (what few are left) are mostly run like a sketchy persian bazaar with off-putting vibes, weird rules, and 'gotchas.' Say what you will, but most people don't enjoy doing business with mall-based retail that's operated like a 7-Eleven on the wrong side of the tracks. Most malls wouldn't let this go on, the fact that it's rampant at the Landing is a sign of desperation, which only further turns customers off. The place is caught in a vicious cycle.
Realistically, the only way out at this point is to shut it down, do a total renovation and build the requisite new parking to sign chain retailers, sign the new retailers and restaurants, and then re-open it with a publicity blitz as the "new" Landing. Maybe even change the name. It's gotten to the point now where nobody from here will go there, except the few diehards who go because they see what it could be but isn't. For everybody else, you have to start with a clean slate that will attract them back down there after the two decades the place spent building a well-known reputation on how much it sucks ass.
In the meantime, Sleiman could sponsor some entertainment acts or something to draw people there, that would probably help. As it sits, and he must know this, there is absolutely no reason to go there. I can go to a sketchy convenience store a lot closer to my house. And I can even use my credit card.
Quote from: fieldafm on May 25, 2011, 05:21:37 PM
The Landing isn't losing tenants b/c of a greedy landlord... let's make that very clear.
A shrinking working population, recession and a year long road construction project have made life very difficult for a lot of restaurants.
And there was a video arcade for many years... where Mavericks(former Paris) is located
Tilt! I have about 1000 tickets from that place still. I came across one in Houston last year and if only I had my tickets with me I could've probably walked out with a nice teddy bear. :)
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on May 27, 2011, 12:20:44 AM
Quote from: fieldafm on May 25, 2011, 05:21:37 PM
The Landing isn't losing tenants b/c of a greedy landlord... let's make that very clear.
A shrinking working population, recession and a year long road construction project have made life very difficult for a lot of restaurants.
And there was a video arcade for many years... where Mavericks(former Paris) is located
Tilt! I have about 1000 tickets from that place still. I came across one in Houston last year and if only I had my tickets with me I could've probably walked out with a nice teddy bear. :)
I spent alot of time in that Arcade as a youth. SOO many memories. LOL
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 26, 2011, 10:08:26 PM
It's gotten to the point now where nobody from here will go there, except the few diehards who go because they see what it could be but isn't.
Once again, another generalization that is wrong....there are lots of locals AND visitors that go to the Landing...some of the restaurants still do a pretty brisk business, mainly because of locals.
Come check out the courtyard this weekend...I'm willing to bet there's a decent crowd Friday evening through Monday evening.
Yes the "mall" portion of the landing is sketch. The restaurants though actually do seem to do a pretty decent business at night though. I really think they should renovate and get rid of the indoor mall part.
Quote from: tufsu1 on May 27, 2011, 08:02:05 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 26, 2011, 10:08:26 PM
It's gotten to the point now where nobody from here will go there, except the few diehards who go because they see what it could be but isn't.
Once again, another generalization that is wrong....there are lots of locals AND visitors that go to the Landing...some of the restaurants still do a pretty brisk business, mainly because of locals.
Come check out the courtyard this weekend...I'm willing to bet there's a decent crowd Friday evening through Monday evening.
Visitors are visitors, they don't know any better. But the locals, come on Tufsu, this is a city of a million people. A hundred people in a courtyard once a week isn't going to sustain the Landing, and we both know it. If you want to see people, go walk around the Avenues or Town Center, or Orange Park Mall. That is a profitable level of traffic. More people that use the bathrooms at the Cheesecake Factory at the Town Center in any given hour than there are in total at the Landing. It's ridiculous, you really can't argue this one.
And riddle me this; If it's such a smashing success, as you're claiming, why is it mostly vacant? Why did Twisted just close? Why did Starbucks just close? I have never seen a Mall so desperate they were willing to rent a waterfront anchor restaurant space to a local fitness center. Is this another example of how everyone else, including the paying customers who don't go there, and all the retailers who've gone bust trying to do business there, just don't recognize how awesome Tufsu says it is?
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 27, 2011, 08:23:16 AM
Visitors are visitors, they don't know any better. But the locals, come on Tufsu, this is a city of a million people. A hundred people in a courtyard once a week isn't going to sustain the Landing, and we both know it. If you want to see people, go walk around the Avenues or Town Center, or Orange Park Mall.
Actually I was at the Avenues the other day during lunch...was almost as ghost town like as the inside of the Landing
Plus, I'm willing to bet there will be close to 20,000 people that spend some time in the Landing courtyard this weekend...slightly more than 100.
Now, I never said the center isn't dying...it is and there a multitude of reasons...but certain establishments are still doing well...and they still draw a crowd for special events (country concerts, Jazz Fest, Rock on the River, etc.)
Quote from: tufsu1 on May 27, 2011, 08:33:25 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 27, 2011, 08:23:16 AM
Visitors are visitors, they don't know any better. But the locals, come on Tufsu, this is a city of a million people. A hundred people in a courtyard once a week isn't going to sustain the Landing, and we both know it. If you want to see people, go walk around the Avenues or Town Center, or Orange Park Mall.
Actually I was at the Avenues the other day during lunch...was almost as ghost town like as the inside of the Landing
Plus, I'm willing to bet there will be close to 20,000 people that spend some time in the Landing courtyard this weekend...slightly more than 100.
Now, I never said the center isn't dying...it is and there a multitude of reasons...but certain establishments are still doing well...and they still draw a crowd for special events (country concerts, Jazz Fest, Rock on the River, etc.)
This is Jazz Fest, Tufsu. One busy weekend out of a whole year doesn't support a business...
And about the Avenues, that was probably a poor example on my part. Ever since the Town Center opened up, the Avenues has been losing steam, starting to die. So use the Town Center, or Orange Park Mall, as examples then, compare that level of daily traffic to the Landing and you'll have no trouble seeing why it isn't profitable.
And a handful of special events doesn't support a mall either.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 27, 2011, 08:40:19 AM
This is Jazz Fest, Tufsu. One busy weekend out of a whole year doesn't support a business...
Jazz Fest is one weekend...country concerts are another 8 nights a year...FL-GA is 3 nights long...New Years/Gator Bowl...July 4th...monthly yappy hour...monthly bike nights...the list goes on
you can make a lot of money during these...as has been stated by at least one downtown businesses, they make their monthly rent payment on ArtWalk night alone.
Quote from: tufsu1 on May 27, 2011, 08:44:55 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 27, 2011, 08:40:19 AM
This is Jazz Fest, Tufsu. One busy weekend out of a whole year doesn't support a business...
Jazz Fest is one weekend...country concerts are another 8 nights a year...FL-GA is 3 nights long...New Years/Gator Bowl...July 4th...monthly yappy hour...monthly bike nights...the list goes on
you can make a lot of money during these...as has been stated by at least one downtown businesses, they make their monthly rent payment on ArtWalk night alone.
1: So adding all of that up, you have two weeks a year that don't suck. What do they do the other 50?
2: Rent is only one part of total overhead. The rest of the month, they need to worry about salaries, licensing, paying suppliers and distributors, electric, water, cable, cleaning, etc. No downtown business makes its whole monthly nut on Art Walk.
3: If you're right, and it's just so awesome, then why is the place almost totally vacant, and the few remaining businesses have closed up or pulled out? Have these businesses, and all the customers who didn't go there, just missed how awesome the place is?
I got your point now! We should clearly blame the people who didn't flock to a dying mall full of stores that don't accept credit cards and give off the vibe of a sketchy 7-11, or decided to go to one of the other million Hooters restaurants to get their $10 burger without a $15 side of parking ticket. I got it now, that makes total sense. See, I would have called all those people who chose not to put up with that "smart" but thanks to your enlightened wisdom, I now realize they're all to blame for the landing's failure.
Well awesome, I'm glad we settled that, then.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 27, 2011, 08:52:18 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on May 27, 2011, 08:44:55 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 27, 2011, 08:40:19 AM
This is Jazz Fest, Tufsu. One busy weekend out of a whole year doesn't support a business...
Jazz Fest is one weekend...country concerts are another 8 nights a year...FL-GA is 3 nights long...New Years/Gator Bowl...July 4th...monthly yappy hour...monthly bike nights...the list goes on
1: So adding all of that up, you have two weeks a year that don't suck. What do they do the other 50?
umm...even ignoring my statement "the list goes on" I get 3 (jazz fest) + 8 (country concerts) +3 (FL-GA) + 2 (New Years/gator Bowl) + 1 (July 4th) + 12 (yappy hour) +12 (bike night)....equals 41 days..or almost 6 weeks.
nice math..good thing you're a lawyer :)
There is something going on most weekend nights at the Landing that draws a pretty good crowd. The restaurants and courtyard are generally pretty packed all day on weekends. Add the fundraisers, 5ks, walks, concerts (both in the courtyard and at Mavericks (which gets some real good acts), and random events (Trail of Tails was pretty packed this past weekend), and you've got quite a few more days than 14. The food court gets a big crowd for lunch on weekdays, and thats with it being a pretty sub-standard food court. Plus it just gets a lot of runners and bikers, etc (though the riverwalk should be widened in front of the east end of the Landing where its constricted), and its just a good view and nice place to hang out. It also tells people staying at the Crowne Plaza that there is something going on DT, even if its not always the best thing in the world. Sure its dead weekday nights, but this ain't NYC: most places are dead weekday nights.
Take from this what you will, but Hooters always has a crowd. Not that I know from going there :P. It may be the only place that is consistently crowded, but American Grill, Benny's, and Koja do well, and Cinco de Mayo does alright. Vito's appears to be struggling (haven't eaten there but have drank - wasn't impressed), but from what I've heard its not that great. I don't understand why Chicago Pizza doesn't do better since its a sweet location and I think good food. Of course, they are catering to the same crowd as Hooters, and Hooters is doing a much better job of drawing them, (this may say more about Jacksonvillains than the Landing).
Not that the market is great, but the vacancies may have more to do with management than market. There are people going through the place. Everybody should check it out.
Quote from: PeeJayEss on May 27, 2011, 09:59:29 AMVito's appears to be struggling (haven't eaten there but have drank - wasn't impressed), but from what I've heard its not that great.
I went once. Once. It was just an awful experience. It wasn't just that the food wasn't great, but also the service left a lot to be desired.
It is the only restaurant in the landing I wouldn't recomend to someone.
Quote from: PeeJayEss on May 27, 2011, 09:59:29 AM
There is something going on most weekend nights at the Landing that draws a pretty good crowd. The restaurants and courtyard are generally pretty packed all day on weekends. Add the fundraisers, 5ks, walks, concerts (both in the courtyard and at Mavericks (which gets some real good acts), and random events (Trail of Tails was pretty packed this past weekend), and you've got quite a few more days than 14. The food court gets a big crowd for lunch on weekdays, and thats with it being a pretty sub-standard food court. Plus it just gets a lot of runners and bikers, etc (though the riverwalk should be widened in front of the east end of the Landing where its constricted), and its just a good view and nice place to hang out. It also tells people staying at the Crowne Plaza that there is something going on DT, even if its not always the best thing in the world. Sure its dead weekday nights, but this ain't NYC: most places are dead weekday nights.
Take from this what you will, but Hooters always has a crowd. Not that I know from going there :P. It may be the only place that is consistently crowded, but American Grill, Benny's, and Koja do well, and Cinco de Mayo does alright. Vito's appears to be struggling (haven't eaten there but have drank - wasn't impressed), but from what I've heard its not that great. I don't understand why Chicago Pizza doesn't do better since its a sweet location and I think good food. Of course, they are catering to the same crowd as Hooters, and Hooters is doing a much better job of drawing them, (this may say more about Jacksonvillains than the Landing).
Not that the market is great, but the vacancies may have more to do with management than market. There are people going through the place. Everybody should check it out.
I agree with PJS and Tufsu here. Chris has never liked the place and never goes. The country concerts are jam packed. Bands play in the courtyard a nearly every Friday and Saturday night. Mavericks is jam packed on Fridays and Saturdays. I understand the music is probably nothing that might draw many of our MJers but there are plenty who attend these. I think Slieman has actually done pretty well by bringing in bands on Fridays and Saturdays.
Nobody here is comparing it to Town center... nor is anyone claiming it is awesome... it simply is not as bad as Chris mistakenly thinks it is.
"I got your point now! We should clearly blame the people who didn't flock to a dying mall full of stores that don't accept credit cards ".Chris you obviously want to make point but every merchant at the Landing accepts credit cards except the cookie factory. Why do you have to make things up to make your point. This is blatantly dishonest and you bring shame to yourself telling these lies. I am a tenant here and have done fine and grown for 18 years. Tell the truth it will set you free.
Quote from: PeeJayEss on May 27, 2011, 09:59:29 AM
I don't understand why Chicago Pizza doesn't do better since its a sweet location and I think good food. Of course, they are catering to the same crowd as Hooters, and Hooters is doing a much better job of drawing them, (this may say more about Jacksonvillains than the Landing).
Chicago Pizza needs to use a different sanitizer solution. The entire inside smells absolutely terrible! The only time I can tolerate going there is if we can sit on the patio. Even walking through the inside to get to the patio make me want to vomit. I'd guess that's why it's not as crowded as it could be.
Quote from: skooba on May 27, 2011, 11:59:16 AM
Chicago Pizza needs to use a different sanitizer solution. The entire inside smells absolutely terrible! The only time I can tolerate going there is if we can sit on the patio. Even walking through the inside to get to the patio make me want to vomit. I'd guess that's why it's not as crowded as it could be.
Haven't noticed it, but you ought to send them an email or give them a call and let them know. That's something they'd probably be willing to change. Have you gone back or was once enough? Maybe it was a bad day. Again, haven't noticed it, but I also usually stay outside so I donno.
Quote from: PeeJayEss on May 27, 2011, 12:03:23 PM
Quote from: skooba on May 27, 2011, 11:59:16 AM
Chicago Pizza needs to use a different sanitizer solution. The entire inside smells absolutely terrible! The only time I can tolerate going there is if we can sit on the patio. Even walking through the inside to get to the patio make me want to vomit. I'd guess that's why it's not as crowded as it could be.
Haven't noticed it, but you ought to send them an email or give them a call and let them know. That's something they'd probably be willing to change. Have you gone back or was once enough? Maybe it was a bad day. Again, haven't noticed it, but I also usually stay outside so I donno.
I've probably been there about 10 times. I work downtown and they have pretty good lunch specials. We always sit on the patio because of the smell. Haven't said anything to the management, which I guess we should, but I honestly don't know how they can't be aware of it.
Quote from: PeeJayEss on May 27, 2011, 09:59:29 AM
There is something going on most weekend nights at the Landing that draws a pretty good crowd. The restaurants and courtyard are generally pretty packed all day on weekends. Add the fundraisers, 5ks, walks, concerts (both in the courtyard and at Mavericks (which gets some real good acts), and random events (Trail of Tails was pretty packed this past weekend), and you've got quite a few more days than 14. The food court gets a big crowd for lunch on weekdays, and thats with it being a pretty sub-standard food court. Plus it just gets a lot of runners and bikers, etc (though the riverwalk should be widened in front of the east end of the Landing where its constricted), and its just a good view and nice place to hang out. It also tells people staying at the Crowne Plaza that there is something going on DT, even if its not always the best thing in the world. Sure its dead weekday nights, but this ain't NYC: most places are dead weekday nights.
Take from this what you will, but Hooters always has a crowd. Not that I know from going there :P. It may be the only place that is consistently crowded, but American Grill, Benny's, and Koja do well, and Cinco de Mayo does alright. Vito's appears to be struggling (haven't eaten there but have drank - wasn't impressed), but from what I've heard its not that great. I don't understand why Chicago Pizza doesn't do better since its a sweet location and I think good food. Of course, they are catering to the same crowd as Hooters, and Hooters is doing a much better job of drawing them, (this may say more about Jacksonvillains than the Landing).
Not that the market is great, but the vacancies may have more to do with management than market. There are people going through the place. Everybody should check it out.
I think this is pretty fair. I can see how with it being on the Riverwalk, with the background setting, etc, that it probably does get some decent "pass through" business & is halfway attractive to some locals who want that. I dont think any other place in town quite has that setup. I had a friend in town last week & he wanted to hang out there a lot of the time because he liked the setting. The weekend crowd wasnt that bad actually & the music was decent.
But it should be WAY better than what it is. The problems I've discussed here are indeed problems (and they need to also get rid of those lame ticket raffles too. Thats just kinda poor taste IMO & further cheapens the place).
Like I said, its nothing new management couldn't fix & perhaps a redux of the inside part as well. The inside mall part is what looks cheap & old (not to mention, slightly sketchy with subpar places to eat/shop). Just gut it & put some movie theaters in it or something. The stuff in there is doing nothing for the place.
Quote from: dganson on May 27, 2011, 11:55:58 AM
"I got your point now! We should clearly blame the people who didn't flock to a dying mall full of stores that don't accept credit cards ".Chris you obviously want to make point but every merchant at the Landing accepts credit cards except the cookie factory. Why do you have to make things up to make your point. This is blatantly dishonest and you bring shame to yourself telling these lies. I am a tenant here and have done fine and grown for 18 years. Tell the truth it will set you free.
Ah yes, here comes Doug Ganson again to weigh in without reading the thread first.
I was neither the original person who pointed that out, nor the last. Re-read the thread and you'll see that, while I agreed the Landing has some sketchy tenants, I was not who brought that up. So are we all liars then? And didn't your own place at the Landing just go out of business? This seems like an inopportune time to be making this argument, given the circumstances. If the place is so fabulous, as you and Tufsu claim, why does everything close?
Seems like quite the self-defeating argument, no?
Quote from: peestandingup on May 27, 2011, 12:49:34 PM
But it should be WAY better than what it is. The problems I've discussed here are indeed problems
Agree totally. Its well short of its potential, but its not half bad even now.
Quote from: PeeJayEss on May 27, 2011, 01:15:57 PM
Quote from: peestandingup on May 27, 2011, 12:49:34 PM
But it should be WAY better than what it is. The problems I've discussed here are indeed problems
Agree totally. Its well short of its potential, but its not half bad even now.
Then why is it largely vacant?
Why do all the tenants except one mediocre chain restaurant continually go out of business?
Why does it always lose money?
So, people just don't understand how amazing it is?
Damn those customers, it must be their fault.
Quote from: PeeJayEss on May 27, 2011, 09:59:29 AM
There is something going on most weekend nights at the Landing that draws a pretty good crowd. The restaurants and courtyard are generally pretty packed all day on weekends. Add the fundraisers, 5ks, walks, concerts (both in the courtyard and at Mavericks (which gets some real good acts), and random events (Trail of Tails was pretty packed this past weekend), and you've got quite a few more days than 14. The food court gets a big crowd for lunch on weekdays, and thats with it being a pretty sub-standard food court. Plus it just gets a lot of runners and bikers, etc (though the riverwalk should be widened in front of the east end of the Landing where its constricted), and its just a good view and nice place to hang out. It also tells people staying at the Crowne Plaza that there is something going on DT, even if its not always the best thing in the world. Sure its dead weekday nights, but this ain't NYC: most places are dead weekday nights.
Take from this what you will, but Hooters always has a crowd. Not that I know from going there :P. It may be the only place that is consistently crowded, but American Grill, Benny's, and Koja do well, and Cinco de Mayo does alright. Vito's appears to be struggling (haven't eaten there but have drank - wasn't impressed), but from what I've heard its not that great. I don't understand why Chicago Pizza doesn't do better since its a sweet location and I think good food. Of course, they are catering to the same crowd as Hooters, and Hooters is doing a much better job of drawing them, (this may say more about Jacksonvillains than the Landing).
Not that the market is great, but the vacancies may have more to do with management than market. There are people going through the place. Everybody should check it out.
Well, then one more time, maybe you'd care to explain, given how awesome you think it is, why the place has had a 50%+ vacancy rate for decades and all the merchants there besides Hooters are continually going out of business?
And regarding your claim that it's bad management, that's ludicrous. The Landing has been failing for two decades, and Sleiman is only the most recent manager at the helm. Prior to him, Rouse Co. and General Growth, two of the largest mall operators in the country, and two operators whose similar urban-center projects in other cities have been great successes (for christsake's Rouse originally developed Faneuil Hall in Boston...they literally invented this concept) tried to make a go of it and failed.
The thing has been dying since the day it opened. It has never made a profit at any point during its existence. So, aside from the very people who actually invented the whole concept, who would you believe is more qualified to manage it? ::)
So, what's the deal then, given your view? People just don't understand how awesome it is? ::)
Quote
So, people just don't understand how amazing it is?
I would say... Yes. As an out of towner, PeeJay doesn't know the history of the Landing or whatever ownership groups have run it in the past. All he sees is the potential.
Chris, what is the point of your argument?? What is your recommendation?? Do you want the city to tear down the Landing? Are you just being disagreeable?
Speaking of the family feud, the Peyton family should be BANNED from running any political positions in the city of Jacksonville. Their influence on Jacksonville is too much already, and having a position in the government is already over the board.
Let me hit my favorite conspiracy theory: The Peyton Family owns Gate Petroleum, Co. Their strong influence in Jacksonville is to maintain market in cars and convenience.
What is the best way to keep that market going and always make money?
PREVENT PUBLIC TRANSIT FROM PROSPERITY.QuoteThe JTA is governed by a seven member Board of Directors. The mayor of Jacksonville appoints three Board members who must be confirmed by the Jacksonville City Council; the Florida Governor appoints three members who must be confirmed by the Florida Senate. Each member serves a four-year, unpaid term and can be re-appointed for a second term. From its membership, the Board elects its own Chairman, Vice Chairman, Secretary and Treasurer for one year terms. The seventh member is the District Two Secretary from the Florida Department of Transportation (FDOT) who serves as long as s/he are employed in the position. That individual is responsible for the FDOT activities within the 18 counties of the district, including administrative, planning and operations.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacksonville_Transportation_Authority#Governance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacksonville_Transportation_Authority#Governance)
-Josh
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 27, 2011, 01:20:43 PM
Then why is it largely vacant?
Why do all the tenants except one mediocre chain restaurant continually go out of business?
Why does it always lose money?
So, people just don't understand how amazing it is?
Damn those customers, it must be their fault.
Not sure how you got all these questions from that statement I made (or how you took issue with it at all...wait: Did the Landing run over your dog or something?), but I guess I'd have to answer your questions with a question:
Can the Landing be "not half bad" while being "largely vacant," having all its tenants "continually go out of business" (not sure how that's even possible), and losing money? Yea, sure. My opinion of the experience of the Landing doesn't have to depend on the profitability of the businesses therein or the occupancy of the space, though according to you my opinion is wrong because I failed to consider these matters. "Not half bad" is not the strongest endorsement, though I guess you read it as me saying "how amazing it is" so I can understand your confusion.
Quote
Let me hit my favorite conspiracy theory: The Peyton Family owns Gate Petroleum, Co. Their strong influence in Jacksonville is to maintain market in cars and convenience.
Dude that's not a conspiracy theory. That is fact.
Ask Stephen's permission to access the Jacksonville Wikipedia page. It's probably on there.
Quote from: stephendare on May 27, 2011, 01:27:59 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 27, 2011, 01:20:43 PM
Quote from: PeeJayEss on May 27, 2011, 01:15:57 PM
Quote from: peestandingup on May 27, 2011, 12:49:34 PM
But it should be WAY better than what it is. The problems I've discussed here are indeed problems
Agree totally. Its well short of its potential, but its not half bad even now.
Then why is almost completely vacant? Why do all the tenants continually go out of business? Why does it lose money? People just don't understand how amazing it is? Really?
Are you claiming that the Landing failed because one nightclub had bad service?
The Landing has been the biggest victim of Downtown Policies for the past 20 years.
Since Sleiman took over, he has been repeatedly and deliberately frakked by the Peyton Administration.
Its hard to keep any business open when all roads connecting to your business are either closed or only leading away from it.
Yet this is exactly the situation that Sleiman has had for the past 4 years.
Not a single merchant at the Landing had anything to do with that.
Banana Republic is doing just fine out at Town Center, after all.
The place does need an update. Even Toney agrees with that.
But everytime he has configured a new plan, the Peyton Administration found a way to frak him on the deal. Whether it was building his own garage, reconfiguring the access to the river, buying a parking lot nearby or just out and out fraking with the front of the building.
Imagine how much power the city has when they can just go in, rip up all adjoining streets, relabel all the parking spaces 'handicapped', go onto the grounds of the shopping mall, literally take the statuary away and put it in a roundabout, while taking their good sweet time about it.
I don't agree with Toney's politics, but what Peyton did to him in the name of the family feud has been inexcusable.
Well, in case anyone missed it;
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 26, 2011, 10:08:26 PM
Realistically, the only way out at this point is to shut it down, do a total renovation and build the requisite new parking to sign chain retailers, sign the new retailers and restaurants, and then re-open it with a publicity blitz as the "new" Landing. Maybe even change the name. It's gotten to the point now where nobody from here will go there, except the few diehards who go because they see what it could be but isn't. For everybody else, you have to start with a clean slate that will attract them back down there after the two decades the place spent building a well-known reputation on how much it sucks ass.
In the meantime, Sleiman could sponsor some entertainment acts or something to draw people there, that would probably help. As it sits, and he must know this, there is absolutely no reason to go there. I can go to a sketchy convenience store a lot closer to my house. And I can even use my credit card.
and;
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 27, 2011, 08:38:11 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on May 26, 2011, 09:47:13 PM
from what I can tell, a little less than 200.
The Landing is around 125,000 sqaure feet...so using generic suburban suburban parking ratios of 4-5 spaces per 1000 square feet of retail, the Landing would "need" at least 600 spaces (400 more).
That said, how many street spaces are within a block of the center? How many spaces are in the lots across the street that are advertised on nights/weekends as parking for the Landing?
One of the best things about downtowns is how parking for office workers during the day can be used by those going to dinner, theaters, stadiums, etc. at night and on weekends...this is exactly what happens with the TUPAC, Florida Theatre, etc.
And I saw it first hand in the early 1990's in Baltimore when the Orioles moved downtown and skeptics worried about a lack of parking...the team sold out every game for several years and folks parked in garages and lots nearby...and guess what....they walked to/from the stadium and brought street life to the area!
Except that's only on weekends. During the week, regardless of the severe glut of parking downtown, COJ tickets the $h!t out of anyone using street parking during normal hours. Which is kind of a buzz-kill when you are running a business that depends on customer flow being steady for more than 2 days a week.
Parking policies need to be revisited, if you are going to deny the Landing its garage. The parking situation has been an issue for the Landing from the beginning. Yes, there is plenty of parking. No, you can't use it, unless you 1) Remembered to bring quarters (who carries change anymore?), then 2: Are 100% sure you'll be back in exactly XX amount of minutes or else enjoy your nice ticket, or else 3: Want to pay out the ass and enrich Mark Rimmer to park in one of his 1,000 space garages that might have 3 other cars in it on a good day. Not that this, of course, will stop you from paying out the ass anyway, since his empty garages have their operating losses subsidized by the taxpayers.
Or, back in reality-land, people immediately realize this is ridiculous and everybody will just continue going to one of the other dozen Hooters restaurants and getting their $10 burger without a $15 side of parking ticket and a charitable contribution to Mark Rimmer. Just like they do now.
It's time to revisit downtown parking policies.
I see your reply has identified the very same problems I had already pointed out as being the prime causes, so we are obviously in agreement on what the issues have been. What I do not appreciate, and my point in this thread, are the 1 or 2 usual suspects who, for whatever reason, cannot resist fellating everyone with claims of how a dying mall that's mostly vacant and can't keep a tenant besides for Hooters is, apparently, the most amazing thing since sex despite all evidence to the contrary.
Including one whose business at the Landing just went under, and another one who is the chief champion of the parking policies that have been its chief weakness. I'm simply pointing out that, for some odd reason, despite this small handful of people pointing out how unbelievably awesome it is, the place has been a flop. This seems like a discrepancy that deserves some explanation, no?
And generally, I'm sick of hearing everyone gloss over downtown's problems. The problems are there, they're real, and it will never become what we all want it to be until we address them. Continuing to B.S. each other about whether there is a problem at all only forestalls solving it.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 27, 2011, 01:23:04 PM
Not that the market is great, but the vacancies may have more to do with management than market. There are people going through the place. Everybody should check it out.
And regarding your claim that it's bad management, that's ludicrous. The Landing has been failing for two decades, and Sleiman is only the most recent manager at the helm. Prior to him, Rouse Co. and General Growth, two of the largest mall operators in the country, and two operators whose similar urban-center projects in other cities have been great successes (for christsake's Rouse originally developed Faneuil Hall in Boston...they literally invented this concept) tried to make a go of it and failed.
So, what's the deal then, given your view? People just don't understand how awesome it is? ::)
I based my statement off the understanding I have from this forum that part of the reason Starbucks left and part of the reason Martini closed down
may have been due to their dealing with the management*. That it why I said (I think quite reasonably) that it "
may have more to do with management than market." That doesn't discount the effect of the market, just that one thing
may have had a more significant effect.
May. I don't make arguments in over-the-top absolutes, as you prefer.
To your last question, I would say "Yes!" If you can go have a drink at night on the riverfront, with boats going by, live music playing in the background, and lights all around, and you don't think its at least a little cool, then what is? I think you've decided (possibly very long ago) that it was decidedly un-awesome and have since set out proving that to yourself, rather than enjoying what is actually there. This is just conjecture, of course.
*edit: I should point out that I have no idea if this is actually true or not. I'd hate to get a response that was predicated solely on me getting this point wrong (even though I qualified it up and down already).
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 27, 2011, 01:20:43 PM
Why do all the tenants except one mediocre chain restaurant continually go out of business?
perhaps we can try to stick with facts
Fact - cookie place has been there since Day 1
Fact - 9 West store has been there a long time
Fact - Sundrez has also been there a long time (and expanded)
Fact - since I moved here 5+ years ago the following courtyard restaurants have stayed the same:
Hooters, Vinos, Bennys, Koja Sushi place, American Cafe
Quote from: tufsu1 on May 27, 2011, 01:45:23 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 27, 2011, 01:20:43 PM
Why do all the tenants except one mediocre chain restaurant continually go out of business?
perhaps we can try to stick with facts
Fact - cookie place has been there since Day 1
Fact - 9 West store has been there a long time
Fact - Sundrez has also been there a long time (and expanded)
Fact - since I moved here 5+ years ago the following courtyard restaurants have stayed the same:
Hooters, Vinos, Bennys, Koja Sushi place, American Cafe
Ok, well then riddle me this; How many leaseable storefronts are contained in the Landing?
Secondly, your "facts" are wrong on at least one count, Koja replaced a Fat Tuesday that was the original tenant. I suspect from memory, but am not 100% sure, that several others on your list are not original tenants either. I have lived in the area for 30 years, and used to come to the Landing regularly when I was a kid. I am speaking from personal experience.
Edited to add: Nevermind, I see you are qualifying it by saying "5 Years." In mall retail, that's an exceptionally short lifetime. And, regardless, if you want to point to a half-dozen places in the entire complex that have been able to last 5 years, then we really should put this in perspective. So I'll ask again; How many leasable storefronts, food court bays, are contained in the Landing?
off-hand around 25 downstairs...plus 12 on the river/courtyard...and then Mavericks and Food Court upstairs
and no Chris..my facts are not wrong...I said Koja Sushi (and the other courtyard places I mentioned) had been there since I moved here in April 2006...please show me how that is false
Reading this thread is more fun than watching a boxing match!! And I might add...even more hits below the belt. ;D
Quote from: tufsu1 on May 27, 2011, 01:55:37 PM
off-hand around 25 downstairs...plus 12 on the river/courtyard...and then Mavericks and Food Court upstairs
and no Chris..my facts are not wrong...I said Koja Sushi (and the other courtyard places I mentioned) had been there since I moved here in April 2006...please show me how that is false
I saw you said "5 years" sorry about that, I misread. I corrected my post for you.
But as to the rest, again, do you know a firm number for how many total leasable spaces are available on Landing property? I am trying to find a list of the original tenants, but am not having much luck.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 27, 2011, 01:52:46 PM
Ok, well then riddle me this; How many leaseable storefronts are contained in the Landing?
Most of the vacancy is in the mall, correct? Given that there are not that many people downtown, is it safe to say that it is not quite ready for a shopping destination? I don't know all the history, but did someone in "management" at some point think that building a mall (with apparently mid-upscale stores originally?) in a place without many people was a good idea? When a bad plan fails, is it the market's fault?
As an entertainment destination, again, its "not half bad."
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 27, 2011, 01:52:46 PM
In mall retail, that's an exceptionally short lifetime.
What is the typical expected lifetime of mall retail?
Ok, so the figure is 40 stores, plus food court / restaurant spaces, and plus a bunch of booths they can put out in the public areas. But we'll stick with actual retail storefronts, which numbers 40, so given the 17 tenants reflected on the landing's website, that would equal a 58.5% vacancy rate, no?
http://jacksonville.about.com/od/shoppingservices/tp/Jacksonville-Malls.htm
http://www.jacksonvillelanding.com/shopping
Again, if everything is so peachy, why a 60% vacancy rate?
And yes, to answer PJ's question, the vacancies are largely in the mall.
QuoteThe Landing has been the biggest victim of Downtown Policies for the past 20 years.
Since Sleiman took over, he has been repeatedly and deliberately frakked by the Peyton Administration.
Its hard to keep any business open when all roads connecting to your business are either closed or only leading away from it.
Yet this is exactly the situation that Sleiman has had for the past 4 years.
Not a single merchant at the Landing had anything to do with that.
Banana Republic is doing just fine out at Town Center, after all.
The place does need an update. Even Toney agrees with that.
But everytime he has configured a new plan, the Peyton Administration found a way to frak him on the deal. Whether it was building his own garage, reconfiguring the access to the river, buying a parking lot nearby or just out and out fraking with the front of the building.
Imagine how much power the city has when they can just go in, rip up all adjoining streets, relabel all the parking spaces 'handicapped', go onto the grounds of the shopping mall, literally take the statuary away and put it in a roundabout, while taking their good sweet time about it.
I don't agree with Toney's politics, but what Peyton did to him in the name of the family feud has been inexcusable.
Sweet Jesus, reason has entered the discussion.
Oh, and to answer your other question, it is generally thought the average viable lifespan of a mall retail development is around 20 years, assuming no subsequent redevelopment etc. Some make it longer, some less. It's very common to see 20+ year old malls with most of the original tenants still there, so having every major tenant except 3 turn over in the span of a short time really isn't a good sign of the Landing's health.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on May 27, 2011, 01:41:30 PM
Quote
Let me hit my favorite conspiracy theory: The Peyton Family owns Gate Petroleum, Co. Their strong influence in Jacksonville is to maintain market in cars and convenience.
Dude that's not a conspiracy theory. That is fact.
Ask Stephen's permission to access the Jacksonville Wikipedia page. It's probably on there.
There are more to my conspiracy theory than those mere quoted sentences you extracted on my previous post.
-Josh
You are correct, I was never blaming the Landing management. How can you? Its management, as I pointed out already, consisted of the two largest mall operators in the country, and one of them was actually the original inventor of the marketplace concept, which worked out well for them in many other places. Now we have a local guy, who is suffering the same way as the corporate players did. I absolutely never thought the place's problem was the management.
The problem is the City. Parking policies are a big problem, their refusal to honor their 20+ year-old promise to provide parking is a major problem, and the general decline of downtown brought about a host of asinine governmental policies, have crippled the Landing. It has nothing to do with the Landing itself.
But that doesn't mean anybody should sit here and listen to a bunch of hot air on how awesome the place is. It's not. It sucks. And there are reasons why it sucks, that need to be fixed. There are two people in this thread who aren't having the debate you think we're having, they're actually trying to argue whether the Landing is in trouble. So I was naturally curious, given that version, how the place could be plagued by such endemic vacancy problems and constant operating losses? I am sick of that kind of puffery about Downtown. The B.S. needs to stop, as one can't fix a problem without first admitting there is one.
The management discussion only came up because one of the perpetrators I'm referring to claimed the Landing's problem were due to bad management. Which I do not feel is the case. The management has actually prevented the landing from closing altogether, like most of the rest of downtown did. They should be commended for holding on as well as they did, in the face of the impossible situation COJ has created for them.
Quote from: stephendare on May 27, 2011, 02:30:05 PM
QuoteIncluding one whose business at the Landing just went under, and another one who is the chief champion of the parking policies that have been its chief weakness. I'm simply pointing out that, for some odd reason, despite this small handful of people pointing out how unbelievably awesome it is, the place has been a flop. This seems like a discrepancy that deserves some explanation, no?
And generally, I'm sick of hearing everyone gloss over downtown's problems. The problems are there, they're real, and it will never become what we all want it to be until we address them. Continuing to B.S. each other about whether there is a problem at all only forestalls solving it.
+1,000,000. Except that it sounds like you are making the opposite point. You arent blaming Landing Management then, but rather the downtown policies?
Definitely think that everyone in the thread actually agrees with you on this point.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 27, 2011, 02:03:50 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on May 27, 2011, 01:55:37 PM
off-hand around 25 downstairs...plus 12 on the river/courtyard...and then Mavericks and Food Court upstairs
and no Chris..my facts are not wrong...I said Koja Sushi (and the other courtyard places I mentioned) had been there since I moved here in April 2006...please show me how that is false
I saw you said "5 years" sorry about that, I misread. I corrected my post for you.
But as to the rest, again, do you know a firm number for how many total leasable spaces are available on Landing property? I am trying to find a list of the original tenants, but am not having much luck.
Banana Republic, Sharper Image, Limited, Brookstone, Jarrods, Waldenbooks, 9west, The Cookie Company, Silver Spoons, Ruby Tuesdays, L & N Seafood Market, Gap, Lerners, Haagen Daz, The Fudge Factory, Los Tapas Steakhouse, Peterbrookes, There was a longstanding music shop, Athlete's Attic, and a few others. Ill see if I can get the complete list later.
(http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2009/10/31/129015292730461704.jpg)
-Josh
The Fat Tuesday was upstairs on the East side, where the sushi/bento box place is now that smells like a sewer.
Come on, don't erase the blatant and unprompted attack on Field. I'd love to see his rebuttal. It would be a doozie to say the least.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 27, 2011, 02:37:00 PM
But that doesn't mean anybody should sit here and listen to a bunch of hot air on how awesome the place is. It's not. It sucks. And there are reasons why it sucks, that need to be fixed. There are two people in this thread who aren't having the debate you think we're having, they're actually trying to argue whether the Landing is in trouble. So I was naturally curious, given that version, how the place could be plagued by such endemic vacancy problems and constant operating losses? I am sick of that kind of puffery about Downtown. The B.S. needs to stop, as one can't fix a problem without first admitting there is one.
The management discussion only came up because one of the perpetrators I'm referring to claimed the Landing's problem were due to bad management. Which I do not feel is the case. The management has actually prevented the landing from closing altogether, like most of the rest of downtown did. They should be commended for holding on as well as they did, in the face of the impossible situation COJ has created for them.
No one is making this argument. The "Landing is awesome" is a total straw man that you have created. Show me where in this thread that someone said the Landing is great. The "perpetrator" (really?) you are referring to was me, but I did not make the claim that you are claiming I claimed. This is just three pages of you arguing with things you made up in your head. You are saying the Landing "sucks" and we are respectfully disagreeing (which is apparently NOT okay). It ain't perfect, but its far better than being locked in an outhouse.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 27, 2011, 02:37:00 PM
You are correct, I was never blaming the Landing management. How can you? Its management, as I pointed out already, consisted of the two largest mall operators in the country, and one of them was actually the original inventor of the marketplace concept, which worked out well for them in many other places. Now we have a local guy, who is suffering the same way as the corporate players did. I absolutely never thought the place's problem was the management.
The problem is the City. Parking policies are a big problem, their refusal to honor their 20+ year-old promise to provide parking is a major problem, and the general decline of downtown brought about a host of asinine governmental policies, have crippled the Landing. It has nothing to do with the Landing itself.
But that doesn't mean anybody should sit here and listen to a bunch of hot air on how awesome the place is. It's not. It sucks. And there are reasons why it sucks, that need to be fixed. There are two people in this thread who aren't having the debate you think we're having, they're actually trying to argue whether the Landing is in trouble. So I was naturally curious, given that version, how the place could be plagued by such endemic vacancy problems and constant operating losses? I am sick of that kind of puffery about Downtown. The B.S. needs to stop, as one can't fix a problem without first admitting there is one.
The management discussion only came up because one of the perpetrators I'm referring to claimed the Landing's problem were due to bad management. Which I do not feel is the case. The management has actually prevented the landing from closing altogether, like most of the rest of downtown did. They should be commended for holding on as well as they did, in the face of the impossible situation COJ has created for them.
I was just pointing out a lot of the minor annoyances that are on the surface in the place's current incarnation. Which of course, management could fix (or at least do a much better job at). I think everyone knows the downtown policies that have also plagued the Landing (as well as a hell of a lot of other businesses).
They're obviously both problems, but both a whole nother can of worms too. Surely everyone can agree on that? If so, then we're basically all arguing over which is more important, no?? Obviously downtown policies & a meager downtown population probably play a bigger roll overall. But there's also no doubt that management needs to step it up too. The place def has a "management needs to crack some skulls" vibe to it.
Thats all I was saying.
Quote from: PeeJayEss on May 27, 2011, 02:48:23 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 27, 2011, 02:37:00 PM
But that doesn't mean anybody should sit here and listen to a bunch of hot air on how awesome the place is. It's not. It sucks. And there are reasons why it sucks, that need to be fixed. There are two people in this thread who aren't having the debate you think we're having, they're actually trying to argue whether the Landing is in trouble. So I was naturally curious, given that version, how the place could be plagued by such endemic vacancy problems and constant operating losses? I am sick of that kind of puffery about Downtown. The B.S. needs to stop, as one can't fix a problem without first admitting there is one.
The management discussion only came up because one of the perpetrators I'm referring to claimed the Landing's problem were due to bad management. Which I do not feel is the case. The management has actually prevented the landing from closing altogether, like most of the rest of downtown did. They should be commended for holding on as well as they did, in the face of the impossible situation COJ has created for them.
No one is making this argument. The "Landing is awesome" is a total straw man that you have created. Show me where in this thread that someone said the Landing is great. The "perpetrator" (really?) you are referring to was me, but I did not make the claim that you are claiming I claimed. This is just three pages of you arguing with things you made up in your head. You are saying the Landing "sucks" and we are respectfully disagreeing (which is apparently NOT okay). It ain't perfect, but its far better than being locked in an outhouse.
Oh really? That's certainly not what you said in your post, is it?
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 27, 2011, 01:23:04 PM
Quote from: PeeJayEss on May 27, 2011, 09:59:29 AM
There is something going on most weekend nights at the Landing that draws a pretty good crowd. The restaurants and courtyard are generally pretty packed all day on weekends. Add the fundraisers, 5ks, walks, concerts (both in the courtyard and at Mavericks (which gets some real good acts), and random events (Trail of Tails was pretty packed this past weekend), and you've got quite a few more days than 14. The food court gets a big crowd for lunch on weekdays, and thats with it being a pretty sub-standard food court. Plus it just gets a lot of runners and bikers, etc (though the riverwalk should be widened in front of the east end of the Landing where its constricted), and its just a good view and nice place to hang out. It also tells people staying at the Crowne Plaza that there is something going on DT, even if its not always the best thing in the world. Sure its dead weekday nights, but this ain't NYC: most places are dead weekday nights.
Take from this what you will, but Hooters always has a crowd. Not that I know from going there :P. It may be the only place that is consistently crowded, but American Grill, Benny's, and Koja do well, and Cinco de Mayo does alright. Vito's appears to be struggling (haven't eaten there but have drank - wasn't impressed), but from what I've heard its not that great. I don't understand why Chicago Pizza doesn't do better since its a sweet location and I think good food. Of course, they are catering to the same crowd as Hooters, and Hooters is doing a much better job of drawing them, (this may say more about Jacksonvillains than the Landing).
Not that the market is great, but the vacancies may have more to do with management than market. There are people going through the place. Everybody should check it out.
Well, then one more time, maybe you'd care to explain, given how awesome you think it is, why the place has had a 50%+ vacancy rate for decades and all the merchants there besides Hooters are continually going out of business?
And regarding your claim that it's bad management, that's ludicrous. The Landing has been failing for two decades, and Sleiman is only the most recent manager at the helm. Prior to him, Rouse Co. and General Growth, two of the largest mall operators in the country, and two operators whose similar urban-center projects in other cities have been great successes (for christsake's Rouse originally developed Faneuil Hall in Boston...they literally invented this concept) tried to make a go of it and failed.
The thing has been dying since the day it opened. It has never made a profit at any point during its existence. So, aside from the very people who actually invented the whole concept, who would you believe is more qualified to manage it? ::)
So, what's the deal then, given your view? People just don't understand how awesome it is? ::)
I find your claim of victimization at the hands of some concupiscent straw-man rather funny, considering you were the one who made the argument I was referring to. Ironically, YOUR post is what you're now claiming is a straw-man. So...not sure what to say...other than that's utterly ridiculous. I think you'll find this is the unfortunate thing about message boards, well maybe for you anyway, everything is there in black and white whether it is convenient or not.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 27, 2011, 03:04:54 PM
Oh really? That's certainly not what you said in your post, is it?
I find your claim of victimization at the hands of some concupiscent straw-man rather funny, considering you were the one who made the argument I was referring to. Ironically, YOUR post is what you're now claiming is a staw-man. So...not sure what to say...other than that's utterly ridiculous. I think you'll find this is the unfortunate thing about message boards, well maybe for you anyway, everything is there in black and white whether it is convenient or not.
Soo.... you couldn't find any posts with people calling the Landing "awesome" or "great?" Sooo.....your assertion that people are calling the Landing "awesome" or "great" and glossing over its problems is...false? Your logic is difficult to follow. I am thinking about a quote from Billy Madison. And now I have to go get a dictionary and look up "concupiscent."
edit: I didn't understand it before I looked the word up, and now that I know what the word means, I totally have no clue what you're saying.
Quote from: stephendare on May 27, 2011, 02:30:05 PM
Banana Republic, Sharper Image, Limited, Brookstone, Jarrods, Waldenbooks, 9west, The Cookie Company, Silver Spoons, Ruby Tuesdays, L & N Seafood Market, Gap, Lerners, Haagen Daz, The Fudge Factory, Los Tapas Steakhouse, Peterbrookes, There was a longstanding music shop, Athlete's Attic, and a few others. Ill see if I can get the complete list later.
I have a tenant list from about '91 that I can post later - four years into the lifespan of the Landing, but most of the above listed stores were still there. I think only Brookstone and Sharper Image were gone by then out of the above group.
There was also B. Dalton, Laura Ashley, the "Dawson & Buckles" pushcarts (named for an early Jacksonville general merchandise store), Johnny Rockets, and a gallery called Picture Perfect. The music shop was Musicland. I also remember an Italian restaurant called Ciao Gianni, and a Mexican one called Cuco's, but I think they were not originals but replacements for original tenants. Raggz, which eventually became Discount Pro-Wear, also was a replacement of an original if memory serves me, but was there from at least the early 90s until '08 or '09.
Silver Spoon eventually became the American Cafe (a different concept from the same restaurant co.), so for all intents and purposes it is also an original tenant, I believe.
Quote from: PeeJayEss on May 27, 2011, 03:10:59 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 27, 2011, 03:04:54 PM
Oh really? That's certainly not what you said in your post, is it?
I find your claim of victimization at the hands of some concupiscent straw-man rather funny, considering you were the one who made the argument I was referring to. Ironically, YOUR post is what you're now claiming is a staw-man. So...not sure what to say...other than that's utterly ridiculous. I think you'll find this is the unfortunate thing about message boards, well maybe for you anyway, everything is there in black and white whether it is convenient or not.
Soo.... you couldn't find any posts with people calling the Landing "awesome" or "great?" Sooo.....your assertion that people are calling the Landing "awesome" or "great" and glossing over its problems is...false? Your logic is difficult to follow. I am thinking about a quote from Billy Madison. And now I have to go get a dictionary and look up "concupiscent."
Well, as anyone can see, I already posted the exact post I'd referred to for you above...
Which, naturally, you should immediately recognize. Since it was yours.
And FWIW, resorting to quoting and redefining commonly understood words should be a red-flag to you that your argument is out of gas. You said what you said, and I've already quoted you for yourself above. You're free to deny it all you like, as people will read what's written and draw the obvious conclusion. As I've already stated, this is the unfortunate thing about message boards, your words are there in black and white whether they are convenient or not.
Quote from: PeeJayEss on May 27, 2011, 03:10:59 PM
edit: I didn't understand it before I looked the word up, and now that I know what the word means, I totally have no clue what you're saying.
Well maybe that's to be expected, it would take a sense of humor to get the joke.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 27, 2011, 03:15:34 PM
Well, as anyone can see, I already posted the exact post I'd referred to for you above...
Which, naturally, you should immediately recognize. Since it was yours.
And FWIW, resorting to quoting and redefining commonly understood words should be a red-flag to you that your argument is out of gas. You said what you said, and I've already quoted you for yourself above. You're free to deny it all you like, as people will read what's written and draw the obvious conclusion. As I've already stated, this is the unfortunate thing about message boards, your words are there in black and white whether they are convenient or not.
Since I am clearly not very smart, could you more concisely quote where I (or anyone on this thread) wrote "The Landing is great" or "the Landing is awesome," since that is the basis of your complaint?
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 27, 2011, 03:16:58 PM
Well maybe that's to be expected, it would take a sense of humor to get the joke.
Ooo a personal attack. Way to advance your argument.
Quote from: stephendare on May 27, 2011, 03:10:42 PM
I also am very grateful to Janice and Toney for allowing the artists inside the downstairs gallery to have space to do their work and to have the first experience of what it takes to run a gallery. There will be a whole generation of young artists in this city who have this valuable insight as a result of Toney's generosity and Janice Lowe's optimism and civic attitude.
They're doing some fine work too, and I always bring guests to the Adrian Pickett Gallery, James Pontal's photography gallery, the store that sells glass, etc.
Chris, your aversion to sticking to the pertanent information for the sake of making it sound like you're winning the argument is astounding. No one has ever said the Landing isn't having problems. No poster has claimed that the Landing isn't largely vacant. Everyone on here knows of the Landing's struggles. Most of us know why the Landing is struggling. Just because we don't list ad infinitum the same reasons and almost identical posts in hundreds of threads for months on end, it doesn't mean that we don't know more than you about what plagues this city. My point is not to convince you that the Landing is thriving.
I just want to know why you hate it so much. You have failed to answer my question. that question is "What's your point??" Is there a reason you keep going down this trail where no one is following?? Are you just being difficult? Are you trying to prove anything?
Chris, there's not a soul on here that doesn't know you're a smart kid. Why not do something positive with it? Why don't you try and help out, rather than just cast aspersions on our city, our mayor, and your fellow posters? What have you done to help further the cause of metrojacksonville and better your city?
So...we're all meeting at the Landing for drinks tonight then?? ;D
Quote from: PeeJayEss on May 27, 2011, 03:19:28 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 27, 2011, 03:15:34 PM
Well, as anyone can see, I already posted the exact post I'd referred to for you above...
Which, naturally, you should immediately recognize. Since it was yours.
And FWIW, resorting to quoting and redefining commonly understood words should be a red-flag to you that your argument is out of gas. You said what you said, and I've already quoted you for yourself above. You're free to deny it all you like, as people will read what's written and draw the obvious conclusion. As I've already stated, this is the unfortunate thing about message boards, your words are there in black and white whether they are convenient or not.
Since I am clearly not very smart, could you more concisely quote where I (or anyone on this thread) wrote "The Landing is great" or "the Landing is awesome," since that is the basis of your complaint?
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 27, 2011, 03:16:58 PM
Well maybe that's to be expected, it would take a sense of humor to get the joke.
Ooo a personal attack. Way to advance your argument.
Again, you're simply quoting a paraphrasing of your argument and then arguing over the definition of commonly understood words. If you honestly feel that what I said wasn't a fair representation of your post, which it was, as I've already quoted for you above, then I suspect we'll get nowhere with this discussion. We all know what the definition of "great" is and we all can read what you wrote in your post, which I quoted above. The conclusion is obvious.
Quote from: peestandingup on May 27, 2011, 03:25:30 PM
So...we're all meeting at the Landing for drinks tonight then?? ;D
I'll be up there at about 7:30. I'll probably be sitting in the lovely courtyard listening to the free live music, looking out across the beautiful river at the newly renovated fountain, enjoying the cool evening breeze, and drinking a beverage from one of the many purveyors that set up stands in the courtyard for my convenience.
Chris is right. "The Landing sucks"
Let us recall what set you off on this tirade to begin with:
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 27, 2011, 01:20:43 PM
Quote from: PeeJayEss on May 27, 2011, 01:15:57 PM
Quote from: peestandingup on May 27, 2011, 12:49:34 PM
But it should be WAY better than what it is. The problems I've discussed here are indeed problems
Agree totally. Its well short of its potential, but its not half bad even now.
Then why is it largely vacant?
Why do all the tenants except one mediocre chain restaurant continually go out of business?
Why does it always lose money?
So, people just don't understand how amazing it is?
Damn those customers, it must be their fault.
If you look at the two bolded items, I would say that one is, quite fairly, the opposite of a "fair representation" of the other.
And I am astounded by how reasonable you can be:
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 27, 2011, 03:26:17 PM
If you honestly feel that what I said wasn't a fair representation of your post, which it was, as I've already quoted for you above, then I suspect we'll get nowhere with this discussion.
But you're right that we will get no where. You take this Landing thing far too personally. Let's just start over as though neither of us has said anything.
I think the Landing is not horrible. Do you agree?
Quote from: peestandingup on May 27, 2011, 03:25:30 PM
So...we're all meeting at the Landing for drinks tonight then?? ;D
:P I'm in.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on May 27, 2011, 03:22:29 PM
Chris, your aversion to sticking to the pertanent information for the sake of making it sound like you're winning the argument is astounding. No one has ever said the Landing isn't having problems. No poster has claimed that the Landing isn't largely vacant. Everyone on here knows of the Landing's struggles. Most of us know why the Landing is struggling. Just because we don't list ad infinitum the same reasons and almost identical posts in hundreds of threads for months on end, it doesn't mean that we don't know more than you about what plagues this city. My point is not to convince you that the Landing is thriving.
I just want to know why you hate it so much. You have failed to answer my question. that question is "What's your point??" Is there a reason you keep going down this trail where no one is following?? Are you just being difficult? Are you trying to prove anything?
Chris, there's not a soul on here that doesn't know you're a smart kid. Why not do something positive with it? Why don't you try and help out, rather than just cast aspersions on our city, our mayor, and your fellow posters? What have you done to help further the cause of metrojacksonville and better your city?
Holy condescending lecture Batman!
My point, from the beginning, was pretty darn simple;
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 27, 2011, 01:44:27 PM
I'm sick of hearing everyone gloss over downtown's problems. The problems are there, they're real, and it will never become what we all want it to be until we address them. Continuing to B.S. each other about whether there is a problem at all only forestalls solving it.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 27, 2011, 08:38:11 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on May 26, 2011, 09:47:13 PM
from what I can tell, a little less than 200.
The Landing is around 125,000 sqaure feet...so using generic suburban suburban parking ratios of 4-5 spaces per 1000 square feet of retail, the Landing would "need" at least 600 spaces (400 more).
That said, how many street spaces are within a block of the center? How many spaces are in the lots across the street that are advertised on nights/weekends as parking for the Landing?
One of the best things about downtowns is how parking for office workers during the day can be used by those going to dinner, theaters, stadiums, etc. at night and on weekends...this is exactly what happens with the TUPAC, Florida Theatre, etc.
And I saw it first hand in the early 1990's in Baltimore when the Orioles moved downtown and skeptics worried about a lack of parking...the team sold out every game for several years and folks parked in garages and lots nearby...and guess what....they walked to/from the stadium and brought street life to the area!
Except that's only on weekends. During the week, regardless of the severe glut of parking downtown, COJ tickets the $h!t out of anyone using street parking during normal hours. Which is kind of a buzz-kill when you are running a business that depends on customer flow being steady for more than 2 days a week.
Parking policies need to be revisited, if you are going to deny the Landing its garage. The parking situation has been an issue for the Landing from the beginning. Yes, there is plenty of parking. No, you can't use it, unless you 1) Remembered to bring quarters (who carries change anymore?), then 2: Are 100% sure you'll be back in exactly XX amount of minutes or else enjoy your nice ticket, or else 3: Want to pay out the ass and enrich Mark Rimmer to park in one of his 1,000 space garages that might have 3 other cars in it on a good day. Not that this, of course, will stop you from paying out the ass anyway, since his empty garages have their operating losses subsidized by the taxpayers.
Or, back in reality-land, people immediately realize this is ridiculous and everybody will just continue going to one of the other dozen Hooters restaurants and getting their $10 burger without a $15 side of parking ticket and a charitable contribution to Mark Rimmer. Just like they do now.
It's time to revisit downtown parking policies.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 26, 2011, 10:08:26 PM
Realistically, the only way out at this point is to shut it down, do a total renovation and build the requisite new parking to sign chain retailers, sign the new retailers and restaurants, and then re-open it with a publicity blitz as the "new" Landing. Maybe even change the name. It's gotten to the point now where nobody from here will go there, except the few diehards who go because they see what it could be but isn't. For everybody else, you have to start with a clean slate that will attract them back down there after the two decades the place spent building a well-known reputation on how much it sucks ass.
In the meantime, Sleiman could sponsor some entertainment acts or something to draw people there, that would probably help. As it sits, and he must know this, there is absolutely no reason to go there. I can go to a sketchy convenience store a lot closer to my house. And I can even use my credit card.
My points, despite your apparent dislike of my delivery, are actually very clear;
1) Everybody quit turd-polishing when it comes to how badly downtown sucks. We first must acknowledge there is a problem in order to begin solving it. Despite what PeeJay wants to nonsensically argue after the fact, she was turd-polishing, and so was Tufsu. This is damaging to making progress on resolving a problem, when you have this chorus of bullsh!t claiming there is no problem.
2) Revisit the parking policies downtown, including meters and enforcement. That mess is actively killing off all of downtown, the Landing included.
3) Give Sleiman his dedicated parking already.
4) Sleiman needs to renovate the Landing. Probably needs to close it down, do a total rehab, sign new tenants, then do a re-opening blitz, in order to generate enough to buzz to attract people back down there. Regardless of whatever turd-polishing is being done by 2 people on a message board who wax on about how busy the place is, despite having a 60% vacancy rate and ongoing operating losses. The truth is that few people go there. This needs to be reversed in order to have a thriving property, and the keys to that are what I've listed above.
Of course, I stated this in my prior posts, but the usual turd-polishers showed up to argue about whether there was even a problem to begin with, and how hordes of people flock here, how busy it is, yada yada yada. Which is total B.S., as can be seen in the visitor numbers, the vacancy rate, the operating losses, or most clearly by simply walking through the place.
I want to see these issues corrected, for all of downtown. Turd-polishing does that effort a disservice.
Quote from: PeeJayEss on May 27, 2011, 03:35:59 PM
Let us recall what set you off on this tirade to begin with:
Better yet, how about we recall your own post, wherein you said what I said you said;
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 27, 2011, 01:23:04 PM
Quote from: PeeJayEss on May 27, 2011, 09:59:29 AM
There is something going on most weekend nights at the Landing that draws a pretty good crowd. The restaurants and courtyard are generally pretty packed all day on weekends. Add the fundraisers, 5ks, walks, concerts (both in the courtyard and at Mavericks (which gets some real good acts), and random events (Trail of Tails was pretty packed this past weekend), and you've got quite a few more days than 14. The food court gets a big crowd for lunch on weekdays, and thats with it being a pretty sub-standard food court. Plus it just gets a lot of runners and bikers, etc (though the riverwalk should be widened in front of the east end of the Landing where its constricted), and its just a good view and nice place to hang out. It also tells people staying at the Crowne Plaza that there is something going on DT, even if its not always the best thing in the world. Sure its dead weekday nights, but this ain't NYC: most places are dead weekday nights.
Take from this what you will, but Hooters always has a crowd. Not that I know from going there :P. It may be the only place that is consistently crowded, but American Grill, Benny's, and Koja do well, and Cinco de Mayo does alright. Vito's appears to be struggling (haven't eaten there but have drank - wasn't impressed), but from what I've heard its not that great. I don't understand why Chicago Pizza doesn't do better since its a sweet location and I think good food. Of course, they are catering to the same crowd as Hooters, and Hooters is doing a much better job of drawing them, (this may say more about Jacksonvillains than the Landing).
Not that the market is great, but the vacancies may have more to do with management than market. There are people going through the place. Everybody should check it out.
Well, then one more time, maybe you'd care to explain, given how awesome you think it is, why the place has had a 50%+ vacancy rate for decades and all the merchants there besides Hooters are continually going out of business?
And regarding your claim that it's bad management, that's ludicrous. The Landing has been failing for two decades, and Sleiman is only the most recent manager at the helm. Prior to him, Rouse Co. and General Growth, two of the largest mall operators in the country, and two operators whose similar urban-center projects in other cities have been great successes (for christsake's Rouse originally developed Faneuil Hall in Boston...they literally invented this concept) tried to make a go of it and failed.
The thing has been dying since the day it opened. It has never made a profit at any point during its existence. So, aside from the very people who actually invented the whole concept, who would you believe is more qualified to manage it? ::)
So, what's the deal then, given your view? People just don't understand how awesome it is? ::)
Did someone hijack your keyboard, then?
I suppose now that bin Laden's gone, it's mildly possible that al-qaeda's new strategy is to hijack personal computers and make errant posts on message boards. That is, after all, mildly possible.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 27, 2011, 04:01:56 PM
3) PeeJayEss is a she, and her post was indeed saying what I said it was saying. Again, this argument is just nonsense at this point, the post says what I paraphased it as saying. We were never arguing over whether the word "great" was used, that was merely a silly deflection tactic.
I think this is that "one more post" that Captain foretold. I checked, and "she" is in fact a he, and I'm not completely sure where you got that idea or why you held it so strongly when rebuked (but I guess that's a pretty good commentary on how you approach this topic here). You're right that we were never arguing. You were quoting as much text as possible, slapping your keyboard, and calling it a brilliant post, all while mischaracterizing everyone not named "ChriswUfGator." I'm done with this. TGIF, have a good weekend and hopefully I'll see you out at Jazz Fest and we can hang out, as we'd probably get along in person.
Seriously though, will be at the Landing tonight.
I've gotten dizzy! Too many embedded posts.
And round and round they go; where they stop, nobody knows.
Well, everyone knows I'm a "he" (duh, my username). Hmm, although I guess I could be a "she" & using one of those ghastly "GoGirl" devices. http://www.go-girl.com/what-is-gogirl.asp
Woo! C mon, guys. Its actually a cool time in Jax this weekend. Lets squash the disagreements & party.
Quote from: PeeJayEss on May 27, 2011, 04:10:12 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 27, 2011, 04:01:56 PM
3) PeeJayEss is a she, and her post was indeed saying what I said it was saying. Again, this argument is just nonsense at this point, the post says what I paraphased it as saying. We were never arguing over whether the word "great" was used, that was merely a silly deflection tactic.
I think this is that "one more post" that Captain foretold. I checked, and "she" is in fact a he, and I'm not completely sure where you got that idea or why you held it so strongly when rebuked (but I guess that's a pretty good commentary on how you approach this topic here). You're right that we were never arguing. You were quoting as much text as possible, slapping your keyboard, and calling it a brilliant post, all while mischaracterizing everyone not named "ChriswUfGator." I'm done with this. TGIF, have a good weekend and hopefully I'll see you out at Jazz Fest and we can hang out, as we'd probably get along in person.
Seriously though, will be at the Landing tonight.
What happened is that you posted your comment about the Landing, then tried to claim you hadn't said what you said. When confronted with it, you fell back to quoting the words in my 2-sentence paraphrase of your 3-paragraph post, and claiming that it wasn't the same because the exact words "great" or "awesome" didn't appear in both. Of course not, genius, that's rather the whole point of a paraphrase. Nobody was mischaracterizing anything, I quoted your post back to you several times. Again, sorry you find it unfortunate that your words remain in black and white even when they are no longer convenient. About the he/she thing, you know that old adage about if the shoe fits...
Sorry, stephen. I didn't want to reply, but I couldn't pass up this gem:
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 27, 2011, 04:30:41 PM
About the he/she thing, you know that old adage about if the shoe fits...
You, sir, are a class act.
Quote from: stephendare on May 27, 2011, 04:34:16 PM
ok girls. You're all pretty.
You're too sweet, stephen. :P
Quote from: stephendare on May 27, 2011, 04:34:16 PM
I don't think Chris is actually trying to say that the Landing itself sucks inherently, just that it sucks to try and open a business given the conditions.
I believe he is trying to say that the Landing itself sucks, and I don't believe he is making any commentary on actually opening a business. He might be saying it sucks because of downtown's policies, but he's still saying the experience of it sucks (well, sucks ass). I say this because I read it:
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 26, 2011, 10:08:26 PM
For everybody else, you have to start with a clean slate that will attract them back down there after the two decades the place spent building a well-known reputation on how much it sucks ass.
I simply beg to differ.
Quote from: PeeJayEss on May 27, 2011, 05:11:55 PM
Sorry, stephen. I didn't want to reply, but I couldn't pass up this gem:
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 27, 2011, 04:30:41 PM
About the he/she thing, you know that old adage about if the shoe fits...
You, sir, are a class act.
Quote from: stephendare on May 27, 2011, 04:34:16 PM
ok girls. You're all pretty.
You're too sweet, stephen. :P
Quote from: stephendare on May 27, 2011, 04:34:16 PM
I don't think Chris is actually trying to say that the Landing itself sucks inherently, just that it sucks to try and open a business given the conditions.
I believe he is trying to say that the Landing itself sucks, and I don't believe he is making any commentary on actually opening a business. He might be saying it sucks because of downtown's policies, but he's still saying the experience of it sucks (well, sucks ass). I say this because I read it:
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 26, 2011, 10:08:26 PM
For everybody else, you have to start with a clean slate that will attract them back down there after the two decades the place spent building a well-known reputation on how much it sucks ass.
I simply beg to differ.
Differ all you want. My point, that you quoted, is that the Landing has a reputational problem to overcome.
This problem in large part stems from things that have nothing to do with the Landing, like COJ's parking enforcement policies, and the City's two decade-long refusal to honor its obligation to provide a garage. After awhile, people equate it with "hassle" and go elsewhere. The Landing needs to overcome this reputational damage, and the issues I listed in my earlier post need to be resolved, for it to become a success. Arguing that, in your opinion, the place is packed, when all evidence is to the contrary, hardly changes the reality of its 60% vacancy rate, does it?
If you think my point during any of this has been that I hate the Landing, you're grossly mistaken. I was simply pointing out what needs to be fixed.
I understand that the Landing needs more parking to meet the requirements of major tenants. But this is only part of the reason they aren't coming. I don't think Starbucks left because of a lack of parking. The only thing that will save the Landing is greater density downtown. The Laura Street Trio project could end up having a greater benefit than a new parking garage - just because it will bring more people - day and night.
Quote from: dougskiles on May 27, 2011, 05:45:06 PM
I understand that the Landing needs more parking to meet the requirements of major tenants. But this is only part of the reason they aren't coming. I don't think Starbucks left because of a lack of parking. The only thing that will save the Landing is greater density downtown. The Laura Street Trio project could end up having a greater benefit than a new parking garage - just because it will bring more people - day and night.
The Landing shouldn't be viewed as "the" destination - with parking committed as though it's a stand-alone entity that could be anywhere.
"But it seems like its getting personal now, so lets pull back a hot minute. (see dogwalker? even I can be the voice of reason every now and then)"
Stephen, you are always the embodiment of cool reason and impersonal detachment. ROFLMAO!!
Quote from: Steve_Lovett on May 27, 2011, 07:05:49 PM
The Landing shouldn't be viewed as "the" destination - with parking committed as though it's a stand-alone entity that could be anywhere.
It shouldn't. However, it will need a certain amount of dedicated parking as a part of the solution to make it work. If a vibrant downtown happens to be everyone's goal, then we need to find a way to handle the problem.
Quote from: dougskiles on May 27, 2011, 05:45:06 PM
I understand that the Landing needs more parking to meet the requirements of major tenants. But this is only part of the reason they aren't coming. I don't think Starbucks left because of a lack of parking. The only thing that will save the Landing is greater density downtown. The Laura Street Trio project could end up having a greater benefit than a new parking garage - just because it will bring more people - day and night.
It's not really about the need. It's about national chains mostly all having requirements for dedicated parking within a certain distance of the proposed location. They won't consider leasing at your property unless you meet their minimum requirements, which the Landing can't do without some kind of dedicated parking. Regardless of whether the parking is actually used or not, it would allow the landing to sign national/chain tenants. Some of them waive their requirements on a case-by-case basis, but usually that only happens in places like Boston or NYC, where the pedestrian traffic would be enough to support the location. Which certainly isn't the case here. This has been a major roadblock in the Landing's efforts to attract tenants. Nobody thinks we need any more parking, we certainly don't. There's a glut of it already.
Unfortunately, the Landing truly does need attached parking to attract large tenants. That's really the issue here.