Twisted Martini closing at The Jacksonville Landing

[peestandingup]

So...we're all meeting at the Landing for drinks tonight then??

[ChriswUfGator]

Well, as anyone can see, I already posted the exact post I'd referred to for you above...

Which, naturally, you should immediately recognize. Since it was yours.

And FWIW, resorting to quoting and redefining commonly understood words should be a red-flag to you that your argument is out of gas. You said what you said, and I've already quoted you for yourself above. You're free to deny it all you like, as people will read what's written and draw the obvious conclusion. As I've already stated, this is the unfortunate thing about message boards, your words are there in black and white whether they are convenient or not.

Since I am clearly not very smart, could you more concisely quote where I (or anyone on this thread) wrote "The Landing is great" or "the Landing is awesome," since that is the basis of your complaint?

Well maybe that's to be expected, it would take a sense of humor to get the joke.

Ooo a personal attack. Way to advance your argument.

Again, you're simply quoting a paraphrasing of your argument and then arguing over the definition of commonly understood words. If you honestly feel that what I said wasn't a fair representation of your post, which it was, as I've already quoted for you above, then I suspect we'll get nowhere with this discussion. We all know what the definition of "great" is and we all can read what you wrote in your post, which I quoted above. The conclusion is obvious.

[Captain Zissou]

So...we're all meeting at the Landing for drinks tonight then??

I'll be up there at about 7:30.  I'll probably be sitting in the lovely courtyard listening to the free live music, looking out across the beautiful river at the newly renovated fountain, enjoying the cool evening breeze, and drinking a beverage from one of the many purveyors that set up stands in the courtyard for my convenience.

Chris is right.  "The Landing sucks"

[PeeJayEss]

Let us recall what set you off on this tirade to begin with:

But it should be WAY better than what it is. The problems I've discussed here are indeed problems

Agree totally. Its well short of its potential, but its not half bad even now.

Then why is it largely vacant?

Why do all the tenants except one mediocre chain restaurant continually go out of business?

Why does it always lose money?

So, people just don't understand how amazing it is?

Damn those customers, it must be their fault.

If you look at the two bolded items, I would say that one is, quite fairly, the opposite of a "fair representation" of the other.

And I am astounded by how reasonable you can be:

If you honestly feel that what I said wasn't a fair representation of your post, which it was, as I've already quoted for you above, then I suspect we'll get nowhere with this discussion.

But you're right that we will get no where. You take this Landing thing far too personally. Let's just start over as though neither of us has said anything.

I think the Landing is not horrible. Do you agree?

So...we're all meeting at the Landing for drinks tonight then??

I'm in.

[ChriswUfGator]

Chris,  your aversion to sticking to the pertanent information for the sake of making it sound like you're winning the argument is astounding.  No one has ever said the Landing isn't having problems.  No poster has claimed that the Landing isn't largely vacant.  Everyone on here knows of the Landing's struggles.  Most of us know why the Landing is struggling.  Just because we don't list ad infinitum the same reasons and almost identical posts in hundreds of threads for months on end, it doesn't mean that we don't know more than you about what plagues this city.  My point is not to convince you that the Landing is thriving.  

I just want to know why you hate it so much.  You have failed to answer my question. that question is "What's your point??" Is there a reason you keep going down this trail where no one is following?? Are you just being difficult? Are you trying to prove anything?

Chris, there's not a soul on here that doesn't know you're a smart kid.  Why not do something positive with it?  Why don't you try and help out, rather than just cast aspersions on our city, our mayor, and your fellow posters? What have you done to help further the cause of metrojacksonville and better your city?

Holy condescending lecture Batman!

My point, from the beginning, was pretty darn simple;

I'm sick of hearing everyone gloss over downtown's problems. The problems are there, they're real, and it will never become what we all want it to be until we address them. Continuing to B.S. each other about whether there is a problem at all only forestalls solving it.

from what I can tell, a little less than 200.

The Landing is around 125,000 sqaure feet...so using generic suburban suburban parking ratios of 4-5 spaces per 1000 square feet of retail, the Landing would "need" at least 600 spaces (400 more).

That said, how many street spaces are within a block of the center?  How many spaces are in the lots across the street that are advertised on nights/weekends as parking for the Landing?

One of the best things about downtowns is how parking for office workers during the day can be used by those going to dinner, theaters, stadiums, etc. at night and on weekends...this is exactly what happens with the TUPAC, Florida Theatre, etc.

And I saw it first hand in the early 1990's in Baltimore when the Orioles moved downtown and skeptics worried about a lack of parking...the team sold out every game for several years and folks parked in garages and lots nearby...and guess what....they walked to/from the stadium and brought street life to the area!

Except that's only on weekends. During the week, regardless of the severe glut of parking downtown, COJ tickets the $h!t out of anyone using street parking during normal hours. Which is kind of a buzz-kill when you are running a business that depends on customer flow being steady for more than 2 days a week.

Parking policies need to be revisited, if you are going to deny the Landing its garage. The parking situation has been an issue for the Landing from the beginning. Yes, there is plenty of parking. No, you can't use it, unless you 1) Remembered to bring quarters (who carries change anymore?), then 2: Are 100% sure you'll be back in exactly XX amount of minutes or else enjoy your nice ticket, or else 3: Want to pay out the ass and enrich Mark Rimmer to park in one of his 1,000 space garages that might have 3 other cars in it on a good day. Not that this, of course, will stop you from paying out the ass anyway, since his empty garages have their operating losses subsidized by the taxpayers.

Or, back in reality-land, people immediately realize this is ridiculous and everybody will just continue going to one of the other dozen Hooters restaurants and getting their $10 burger without a $15 side of parking ticket and a charitable contribution to Mark Rimmer. Just like they do now.

It's time to revisit downtown parking policies.

Realistically, the only way out at this point is to shut it down, do a total renovation and build the requisite new parking to sign chain retailers, sign the new retailers and restaurants, and then re-open it with a publicity blitz as the "new" Landing. Maybe even change the name. It's gotten to the point now where nobody from here will go there, except the few diehards who go because they see what it could be but isn't. For everybody else, you have to start with a clean slate that will attract them back down there after the two decades the place spent building a well-known reputation on how much it sucks ass.

In the meantime, Sleiman could sponsor some entertainment acts or something to draw people there, that would probably help. As it sits, and he must know this, there is absolutely no reason to go there. I can go to a sketchy convenience store a lot closer to my house. And I can even use my credit card.

My points, despite your apparent dislike of my delivery, are actually very clear;

1) Everybody quit turd-polishing when it comes to how badly downtown sucks. We first must acknowledge there is a problem in order to begin solving it. Despite what PeeJay wants to nonsensically argue after the fact, she was turd-polishing, and so was Tufsu. This is damaging to making progress on resolving a problem, when you have this chorus of bullsh!t claiming there is no problem.

2) Revisit the parking policies downtown, including meters and enforcement. That mess is actively killing off all of downtown, the Landing included.

3) Give Sleiman his dedicated parking already.

4) Sleiman needs to renovate the Landing. Probably needs to close it down, do a total rehab, sign new tenants, then do a re-opening blitz, in order to generate enough to buzz to attract people back down there. Regardless of whatever turd-polishing is being done by 2 people on a message board who wax on about how busy the place is, despite having a 60% vacancy rate and ongoing operating losses. The truth is that few people go there. This needs to be reversed in order to have a thriving property, and the keys to that are what I've listed above.

Of course, I stated this in my prior posts, but the usual turd-polishers showed up to argue about whether there was even a problem to begin with, and how hordes of people flock here, how busy it is, yada yada yada. Which is total B.S., as can be seen in the visitor numbers, the vacancy rate, the operating losses, or most clearly by simply walking through the place.

I want to see these issues corrected, for all of downtown. Turd-polishing does that effort a disservice.

[ChriswUfGator]

Let us recall what set you off on this tirade to begin with:

Better yet, how about we recall your own post, wherein you said what I said you said;

There is something going on most weekend nights at the Landing that draws a pretty good crowd. The restaurants and courtyard are generally pretty packed all day on weekends. Add the fundraisers, 5ks, walks, concerts (both in the courtyard and at Mavericks (which gets some real good acts), and random events (Trail of Tails was pretty packed this past weekend), and you've got quite a few more days than 14. The food court gets a big crowd for lunch on weekdays, and thats with it being a pretty sub-standard food court. Plus it just gets a lot of runners and bikers, etc (though the riverwalk should be widened in front of the east end of the Landing where its constricted), and its just a good view and nice place to hang out. It also tells people staying at the Crowne Plaza that there is something going on DT, even if its not always the best thing in the world. Sure its dead weekday nights, but this ain't NYC: most places are dead weekday nights.

Take from this what you will, but Hooters always has a crowd. Not that I know from going there  . It may be the only place that is consistently crowded, but American Grill, Benny's, and Koja do well, and Cinco de Mayo does alright. Vito's appears to be struggling (haven't eaten there but have drank - wasn't impressed), but from what I've heard its not that great. I don't understand why Chicago Pizza doesn't do better since its a sweet location and I think good food. Of course, they are catering to the same crowd as Hooters, and Hooters is doing a much better job of drawing them, (this may say more about Jacksonvillains than the Landing).

Not that the market is great, but the vacancies may have more to do with management than market. There are people going through the place. Everybody should check it out.

Well, then one more time, maybe you'd care to explain, given how awesome you think it is, why the place has had a 50%+ vacancy rate for decades and all the merchants there besides Hooters are continually going out of business?

And regarding your claim that it's bad management, that's ludicrous. The Landing has been failing for two decades, and Sleiman is only the most recent manager at the helm. Prior to him, Rouse Co. and General Growth, two of the largest mall operators in the country, and two operators whose similar urban-center projects in other cities have been great successes (for christsake's Rouse originally developed Faneuil Hall in Boston...they literally invented this concept) tried to make a go of it and failed.

The thing has been dying since the day it opened. It has never made a profit at any point during its existence. So, aside from the very people who actually invented the whole concept, who would you believe is more qualified to manage it? 

So, what's the deal then, given your view? People just don't understand how awesome it is? 

Did someone hijack your keyboard, then?

I suppose now that bin Laden's gone, it's mildly possible that al-qaeda's new strategy is to hijack personal computers and make errant posts on message boards. That is, after all, mildly possible.

[PeeJayEss]

3) PeeJayEss is a she, and her post was indeed saying what I said it was saying. Again, this argument is just nonsense at this point, the post says what I paraphased it as saying. We were never arguing over whether the word "great" was used, that was merely a silly deflection tactic.

I think this is that "one more post" that Captain foretold. I checked, and "she" is in fact a he, and I'm not completely sure where you got that idea or why you held it so strongly when rebuked (but I guess that's a pretty good commentary on how you approach this topic here). You're right that we were never arguing. You were quoting as much text as possible, slapping your keyboard, and calling it a brilliant post, all while mischaracterizing everyone not named "ChriswUfGator." I'm done with this. TGIF, have a good weekend and hopefully I'll see you out at Jazz Fest and we can hang out, as we'd probably get along in person.

Seriously though, will be at the Landing tonight.

[Dog Walker]

I've gotten dizzy!  Too many embedded posts.

And round and round they go; where they stop, nobody knows.

[peestandingup]

Well, everyone knows I'm a "he" (duh, my username). Hmm, although I guess I could be a "she" & using one of those ghastly "GoGirl" devices. http://www.go-girl.com/what-is-gogirl.asp

Woo! C mon, guys. Its actually a cool time in Jax this weekend. Lets squash the disagreements & party.

[ChriswUfGator]

3) PeeJayEss is a she, and her post was indeed saying what I said it was saying. Again, this argument is just nonsense at this point, the post says what I paraphased it as saying. We were never arguing over whether the word "great" was used, that was merely a silly deflection tactic.

I think this is that "one more post" that Captain foretold. I checked, and "she" is in fact a he, and I'm not completely sure where you got that idea or why you held it so strongly when rebuked (but I guess that's a pretty good commentary on how you approach this topic here). You're right that we were never arguing. You were quoting as much text as possible, slapping your keyboard, and calling it a brilliant post, all while mischaracterizing everyone not named "ChriswUfGator." I'm done with this. TGIF, have a good weekend and hopefully I'll see you out at Jazz Fest and we can hang out, as we'd probably get along in person.

Seriously though, will be at the Landing tonight.

What happened is that you posted your comment about the Landing, then tried to claim you hadn't said what you said. When confronted with it, you fell back to quoting the words in my 2-sentence paraphrase of your 3-paragraph post, and claiming that it wasn't the same because the exact words "great" or "awesome" didn't appear in both. Of course not, genius, that's rather the whole point of a paraphrase. Nobody was mischaracterizing anything, I quoted your post back to you several times. Again, sorry you find it unfortunate that your words remain in black and white even when they are no longer convenient. About the he/she thing, you know that old adage about if the shoe fits...

[PeeJayEss]

Sorry, stephen. I didn't want to reply, but I couldn't pass up this gem:

About the he/she thing, you know that old adage about if the shoe fits...

You, sir, are a class act.

ok girls.  You're all pretty.

You're too sweet, stephen. 

I don't think Chris is actually trying to say that the Landing itself sucks inherently, just that it sucks to try and open a business given the conditions.

I believe he is trying to say that the Landing itself sucks, and I don't believe he is making any commentary on actually opening a business. He might be saying it sucks because of downtown's policies, but he's still saying the experience of it sucks (well, sucks ass). I say this because I read it:

For everybody else, you have to start with a clean slate that will attract them back down there after the two decades the place spent building a well-known reputation on how much it sucks ass.

I simply beg to differ.

[ChriswUfGator]

Sorry, stephen. I didn't want to reply, but I couldn't pass up this gem:

About the he/she thing, you know that old adage about if the shoe fits...

You, sir, are a class act.

ok girls.  You're all pretty.

You're too sweet, stephen.  

I don't think Chris is actually trying to say that the Landing itself sucks inherently, just that it sucks to try and open a business given the conditions.

I believe he is trying to say that the Landing itself sucks, and I don't believe he is making any commentary on actually opening a business. He might be saying it sucks because of downtown's policies, but he's still saying the experience of it sucks (well, sucks ass). I say this because I read it:

For everybody else, you have to start with a clean slate that will attract them back down there after the two decades the place spent building a well-known reputation on how much it sucks ass.

I simply beg to differ.

Differ all you want. My point, that you quoted, is that the Landing has a reputational problem to overcome.

This problem in large part stems from things that have nothing to do with the Landing, like COJ's parking enforcement policies, and the City's two decade-long refusal to honor its obligation to provide a garage. After awhile, people equate it with "hassle" and go elsewhere. The Landing needs to overcome this reputational damage, and the issues I listed in my earlier post need to be resolved, for it to become a success. Arguing that, in your opinion, the place is packed, when all evidence is to the contrary, hardly changes the reality of its 60% vacancy rate, does it?

If you think my point during any of this has been that I hate the Landing, you're grossly mistaken. I was simply pointing out what needs to be fixed.

[dougskiles]

I understand that the Landing needs more parking to meet the requirements of major tenants.  But this is only part of the reason they aren't coming.  I don't think Starbucks left because of a lack of parking.  The only thing that will save the Landing is greater density downtown.  The Laura Street Trio project could end up having a greater benefit than a new parking garage - just because it will bring more people - day and night.

[Steve_Lovett]

I understand that the Landing needs more parking to meet the requirements of major tenants.  But this is only part of the reason they aren't coming.  I don't think Starbucks left because of a lack of parking.  The only thing that will save the Landing is greater density downtown.  The Laura Street Trio project could end up having a greater benefit than a new parking garage - just because it will bring more people - day and night.

The Landing shouldn't be viewed as "the" destination - with parking committed as though it's a stand-alone entity that could be anywhere.

[Dog Walker]

"But it seems like its getting personal now, so lets pull back a hot minute.  (see dogwalker?  even I can be the voice of reason every now and then)"

Stephen, you are always the embodiment of cool reason and impersonal detachment.  ROFLMAO!!