Metro Jacksonville

Jacksonville Transportation Center moves forward

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/719079357_KNDZy-M.jpg)

Although the city continues to fail to address the convention center's future, JTA appears to be moving forward with plans for the construction of a new transportation center. Today, Metro Jacksonville shares renderings of what the center will look like once completed.

Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-nov-jacksonville-transportation-center-moves-forward

I'm glad they're moving forward, but does it have to look like it was designed in the 80's?  Who was the design team?

The plan seems to insist on leaving the "Convention Center" intact.  There needs to be a push for a real convention center downtown.  Perhaps the space that the current convention center occupies could be used as a small auditorium for smaller type events similar to the Morocco Shrine...

Somebody bought stock in a BRT system developer.

I think it is time to revisit the city's apparent regulation that any new buildings built in the core must have beige tone stucco and spanish tile roofs (edited: on a second look it seems it is a nice fake copper standing seam roof.)

When I think of the number of vacant buildings in downtown in need of resurrection, why the heck are we wasting 180 million dollars on building something new that looks like south Florida narco-deco! 

Are we spending one time federal stimulus money on a clock tower office complex and retail store spaces? The inclusion of the skyway express is supposed to represent Jacksonville's mass transist spending? How can this boost the LaVilla area? Who is going to fill those shops and stores or are we subsidizing those businesses too?  After 5:00 and on weekends, who will be shopping there?

I suppose it is hopeless to protest, just shut up and pay for it.

Very sound points lindab.

I posted this somewhere else, but it is Anaheim's proposed transportation center. I too dislike the drab beige tone. We can do better!

http://www.ocregister.com/news/design-83354-transportation-center.html

Good.  Alright Obama, give us the money baby.  Hope this comes through to fruition.  I feel it will be a much needed shot in the arm for that end (west end) of downtown and downtown as a whole.  Hope they close the present convention center, make it a part of the transportation center, and build a new convention center in the heart of downtown and/or on the river downtown (old jail and old city hall properties).  Good proposal/plan so far it seems.

Heights Unknown

How about placing a new convention center on the shipyards site.  They can share th stadium parking and boast the St John's river.  With the elevated highway and industry there, that site is horrible for residential.

That would solve parking but it would still be a mile away from the heart of the downtown core.  Who pays for the convention center hotel and restaurants needed to support the center.  If the city has to provide tax breaks and incentives for the complementing development, would it be right to subsidize things that will compete with the businesses already struggling to stay afloat in DT?

That site would be similar to the current site.  No Hotels, no resteraunts, bars nearby, no walkability.

So again we've missed the opportunity to have an architectural landmark for the city where other cities are hitting the mark, as seen in fsujax's Anaheim example.  Again, look at Seattle's main library compared to ours, and numerous county courthouses compared to the one currently going up.

Why must we stay 15 years behind every other major city...

Is this the same JTA that can't pay for bus shelters without getting a sign ordinance exemption?

wow, all i can say is REALLY? horrible design....not thought out at all.

yuck

(http://www.familyoldphotos.com/5c/images/apr5/FLjacksonvilledepot3.jpg)

I sort of like the architectural elements with one huge protest, where are the arches and towers?  Y'all need to go down to the original Union Station on Bay Street and check out the arches and trim. Looks like we got the economy model. This facility is no doubt designed to blend in, with the older building, but without those elements I think it falls short.

A super modern building next to that 1890/1919 station would like like a "Space Station in El Castillo De San Marcos." A glass and steel building is just not a good fit for LaVilla history, and the tiny bit left could be helped by a salute to our past. (Considering we bulldozed the whole section of town).

Curbside walls are going to radiate heat or cold, they'll make dandy sleeping locations for our homeless without other shelter, windows or glass doors are not inviting to these citizens.

http://www.youtube.com/v/L0F-5c7Me3I&hl=en_US&fs=1&color1=0x402061&color2=0x9461ca&border=1
With BRT done right, check out those lanes, and Central Station, we're about to get our designing butts kicked.


Again, the station is scattered all over hell, which is a horrible concept. Considering they are likely to build this thing, imagine how it's going to sell with the public, or Amtrak? When the Convention Center closes and goes empty, we tear it down for more space (not the old railroad buildings just the giant Convention Halls) giving the whole area South of Bay Street that unique abandoned Jax look. Nothing like a view of piles of concrete and re-bar to really kick off your commute. Then we're going to realize that once again (Skyway) we went off with good intentions and a bad plan messing this up for another 30 years. Counting the distance to the railroad platforms from the planned Greyhound Station, via the serpentine elevated walkways is 5 blocks (2 South of Bay - 1 on Bay - 2 1/2 North). It is also up a 30' flight of stairs or broken escalator, down a 30' flight of stairs, up another 30' flight of stairs... no matter how you move from the rail side. If you'll compare this to the current walk from the 1919 station (Amtrak) to the classic Art Deco Greyhound Station, it's the SAME DISTANCE! Damn convenient, and worth of millions? There shouldn't be a stair in the whole transportation side of the Center, including the rail side. Mix this with a view of the "late Convention Center" rubble, and you get an idea of the mess we are creating.

We're planning a Bus Rapid Transit station for a system we can't afford and frankly don't want, at least as planned. On a hot August day, 100 degrees in the shade, people are going to realize there is NO SHADE. The walls will be stained with food, blood and God Knows What, and our City won't bother to maintain the appearance (it's for POOR BLACK PEOPLE). Walking through gum stains on the blistering sidewalks under a metal roof will offer no relief, but they're just Transit riders. When will the city realize it IS for "Black People," and they are US, we're all a poor black family in the eyes of City Hall, and 1950's planning. Welcome to the 21st century version of Jacksonville.

Nobody sent in a rush order to alter those plans for our streetcars, "stupid is as stupid does."  Let's change this element before we create the "Worlds Second Biggest Monument To Transportation Insanity."  Building or support for this, with unfinished (Convention) business, is just "Skyway Crazy."



OCKLAWAHA

BOOOOO!!!!!!!! (Throws breakfast at computer screen).

The best thing about this is bringing Amtrak closer to DT, so why wait until a later phase??  I think just about the same amount of people who ride the skyway will use this facility. The problem is getting to downtown, not moving around downtown once you're there.  They need to focus more on regional transit (commuter rail from St Auggie and Green Cove coming north and the airport coming south) and less on how big their new offices are.

Maybe that gigantic clock will help the buses stay on schedule....?

Ock, that's the one problem that I have when we try to make "copies" of these older buildings, a lot of times the money isn't there to do them the correct way with the details and the architectural elements that add to the aesthetics of those original buildings and what we end up with is a sad try at history.

I have heard the designers did not want to detract from the historical Jacksonville Terminal by building something grander or larger.

^ So in other words, "It's good enough for Jacksonville."  Hate that.

Quote from: fsujax on November 24, 2009, 09:58:36 AM
I have heard the designers did not want to detract from the historical Jacksonville Terminal by building something grander or larger.

Interesting, what a cop out.  One could argue the design does detract from the historical terminal.  The terminal was designed with superior craftsmanship, detail and scale.  Regardless of the architectural style chosen, these design elements should still play a role in the new structure.  Anyway, no reason to get stressed out over it.  After all this is Jacksonville.  I never put my expectations up too high here when it comes to architectural design.  I've accepted the fact that, for the most part, we're pretty architecturally conservative and a decade behind most places of similar size.  Imo, its going to take a lot of thought provoking smaller private sector projects to change the overall mentality.

awesome, it looks like a suburban middle school with a monorail ! ! 

Yep. what a cop out. We will always be 10-15 years behind everyone until we have real change in this City.

Now I have a question about that first rendering of the new transportation center. Is it going to be the cause of that ominous night sky of impending doom or will it rather act as a sanctuary from it?

You will see in 2012 when it gets sucked into the ground

I agree with the general criticisms of the Transportation center. The Metrojacksonville alternative is a superior land use plan. The architecture looks like something that would have been built on UF's campus in the late 80s, early 90s.

That being said, I'm not nearly as riled-up as some of you appear to be. The office building is wedged between I-95 and two off-ramps. The renderings don't show how much the ramps will box it in. It essentially has zero practical street frontage, so the blank walls aren't the end of the world, even if they aren't ideal.

I'm sympathetic to the convention center and amtrak concerns, but that's indicative of a lack of leadership by the mayor and city council. It sucks, but there's nothing JTA can do about that. So given that they can't control what the mayor and city council do, I'm very glad that they're moving forward with this plan now - as opposed to waiting another 10-20 years before another administration gets their act together on a cohesive downtown plan. This plan in 2010 is still better than the chance at a superior plan in 2030.

Also, I like the retail and plaza on Johnson street. Lavilla's redevelopment has been so horribly bungled, that I'm glad when at least a couple block segments are developed with a little forethought. I think the biggest issue is just making sure that whatever is built on the opposite side of Johnson street will also have active uses, and not just be another blank wall or parking garage level.

Anyway, just trying to keep it positive here.

Quote from: jason_contentdg on November 24, 2009, 09:16:26 AM
So again we've missed the opportunity to have an architectural landmark for the city where other cities are hitting the mark, as seen in fsujax's Anaheim example.  Again, look at Seattle's main library compared to ours, and numerous county courthouses compared to the one currently going up.

Why must we stay 15 years behind every other major city...

because everyone here complains if the project costs too much!

Quote from: lindab on November 24, 2009, 09:22:44 AM
Is this the same JTA that can't pay for bus shelters without getting a sign ordinance exemption?

Misleading....JTA has no moeny to build the center....that's why they've applied for simulus funds...the remainder would be funded by FDOT

^ Also misleading because JTA trying to get the private sector pay for bus shelters is a great idea that's an example of positive, proactive planning on JTA's part !! Of all the things I'd critisize JTA for, that would be the last.

Quote from: tufsu1 on November 24, 2009, 11:25:00 AM

Quote from: lindab on November 24, 2009, 09:22:44 AM
Is this the same JTA that can't pay for bus shelters without getting a sign ordinance exemption?

Misleading....JTA has no moeny to build the center....that's why they've applied for simulus funds...the remainder would be funded by FDOT

Is this the only completed plan that could be available in time to present for a Stimulus grant?

Quote from: tufsu1 on November 24, 2009, 11:23:52 AM

Quote from: jason_contentdg on November 24, 2009, 09:16:26 AM
So again we've missed the opportunity to have an architectural landmark for the city where other cities are hitting the mark, as seen in fsujax's Anaheim example.  Again, look at Seattle's main library compared to ours, and numerous county courthouses compared to the one currently going up.

Why must we stay 15 years behind every other major city...

because everyone here complains if the project costs too much!

Good design doesn't have to cost more money.  In fact in many cases, it can be cheaper than what's currently on the table.  In any event, at $180 million, this is not a cheap project.

QuoteAlso, I like the retail and plaza on Johnson street. Lavilla's redevelopment has been so horribly bungled, that I'm glad when at least a couple block segments are developed with a little forethought. I think the biggest issue is just making sure that whatever is built on the opposite side of Johnson street will also have active uses, and not just be another blank wall or parking garage level.

Anyway, just trying to keep it positive here.

I understand the positivity.  I'm still torn.  Its good that someone is attempting to move a transit related project forward.  Its better than what is there today, but it can be a negative in the long run because of the sprawling design (when all phases are considered) around a dying outdated convention center.

Nevertheless, from a retail design standpoint, retail on Johnson Street is risky.  Retailers strive off pedestrian traffic and pass by visibility.  Plus, its better to fill the surroundings of an urban plaza with complementing uses that breathe life and energy into it around the clock.  Not having control on what happens to the south and east could easily create a public space with dead zones and little foot traffic (ex. check out our pocket parks).

Considering the site location, all the retail would be better suited for either Forsyth or Bay Streets and the plaza should be surrounded by more building density and street level use to generate foot traffic.  Along those streets, they would also be visible to every day drivers who are not using transit services (ex. visibility to more potential customers).  Also, this way you won't leave the success or failure of the investment up to the unknown future of the vacant city owned lot across the street.  Knowing the city's pace to doing things, horribly placed retail could sit empty for years (ex. library parking garage) and the public space could end up being no more vibrant than the Main Street pocket park.

Exactly Lake, good design does not have to cost any more than bad design.

IMO, without an imediate connection to the burbs via commuter rail, the Phase 1 JTC is pretty much useless.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on November 24, 2009, 09:43:05 AM
http://www.youtube.com/v/L0F-5c7Me3I&hl=en_US&fs=1&color1=0x402061&color2=0x9461ca&border=1
With BRT done right, check out those lanes, and Central Station, we're about to get our designing butts kicked.OCKLAWAHA

That's a pretty impressive design (taking people where they want to go) and video.  What happened with their streetcar proposal?  Did that die when the mayor got arrested and sent to jail?  How much will it cost?

My, just toss in a bucket of piss water and the dinosaurs start to stir. Why would you accept a center like this Joe, when you KNOW the city, even under our boy prince, is looking for a new convention center location. Yes that has stalled, but with a push from the right agency's, which includes JTA, we could fast track both projects. A delay of only a year for relocation of the SAME building elements into a more compact center would be well worth the wait. There is nothing that says a passionate plea to city council would be out of line.

Anyone know what we're planning for the new-UGLY Lee Street viaduct? To do the rail side it will have to come down, though I can't say I'll miss it. Hopefully a new span tall enough to clear ALL of the tracks on top of the fill base, will be constructed. While we're at it, one would hope we could return some of the classic elements that graced the original viaduct. Those beautiful Victorian style lights and balusters like the new Hogans Creek bridge on Bay. Wonder if JHS knows where the beautiful bronze plaque went? It would be nice to put it back on the bridge or make a copy of it and put it up.

As for the bus shelters, I completely agree, support and am cheering for JTA. This would be the smartest move they have made in the last 30 years that I have yo Yoyo'd back and forth to Medellin, Brasilia, Panama City and Paramaribo. Go for it JTA, SELL - SELL - SELL this and these ideas.

OCKLAWAHA

"I have heard the designers did not want to detract from the historical Jacksonville Terminal by building something grander or larger."

So many people are concerned with detracting from historical buildings and building them to compliment the exisiting buildings we have, but where was the concern about historical stuctures while the city was mass destroying the great ones we used to have 20, 30 or 40 years ago, and many lesser ones in between.

It's a smelly excuse to continue building conservative, drab public buildings. After spending alot of time in Tampa, St Pete and Orlando in the last couple of months, it's apparent Jacksonville seems to relish it's backward views and pride in remaining dull, and "not like Central and South Florida." As a lifelong Jacksonville resident, I would welcome anything to "shake up the place."  

Quote from: Ocklawaha on November 24, 2009, 11:57:03 AM
Why would you accept a center like this Joe, when you KNOW the city, even under our boy prince, is looking for a new convention center location.

Because that's years and years away. It won't be fast-tracked, and as you should well know, the most important aspect of any publicly funded project is putting the gears in motion, not waiting around until the next funding cycle.

Plus, while the metrojax plan is better, the differences aren't big enough to justify a re-do (even assuming the political will were there). The most important thing is getting that nasty greyhound station out of the CBD, as well as setting the stage for commuter rail and garage connectivity with the skyway.

The idea of relocating the bus stations to maximize the multi-modal potential of the transit center is nice ... but please, a theoretical commuter rail-bus or amtrak-greyhound connection is about one of the least relevant issues facing Jacksonville transit.

If someone has the political power to fund a new convention center before 2011, that's really freaking fantastic. I encourage them to do it, and ask JTA to re-conform its plan to the metrojacksonville model now that the convention center problem has been solved. But until that happens, I'm operating under the assumption that the convention center won't be shut down before the transit center gets constructed. Therefore the JTA plan - though not perfect - adequately addresses the real-world constraints of the site, and is a functional plan that should begin construction.

One good thing I see is that the skyway will not be extended to riverside.  The elevated platforms are an eyesore.  I think whomever designed this needs their credentials checked.  It's boring.  Let's just hope it becomes functional...

Quote from: TheProfessor on November 24, 2009, 12:20:49 PM
One good thing I see is that the skyway will not be extended to riverside.  The elevated platforms are an eyesore.  I think whomever designed this needs their credentials checked.  It's boring.  Let's just hope it becomes functional...

Professor, until the Skyway reaches the edge of residential Riverside, Springfield, Fairfield and San Marco, it can NEVER be fully functional. We're going to do much more on this down the road.

Quote from: Joe on November 24, 2009, 12:15:22 PM

Quote from: Ocklawaha on November 24, 2009, 11:57:03 AM
Why would you accept a center like this Joe, when you KNOW the city, even under our boy prince, is looking for a new convention center location.

Plus, while the metrojax plan is better, the differences aren't big enough to justify a re-do (even assuming the political will were there). The most important thing is getting that nasty greyhound station out of the CBD, as well as setting the stage for commuter rail and garage connectivity with the skyway.

The idea of relocating the bus stations to maximize the multi-modal potential of the transit center is nice ... but please, a theoretical commuter rail-bus or amtrak-greyhound connection is about one of the least relevant issues facing Jacksonville transit.

Therefore the JTA plan - though not perfect - adequately addresses the real-world constraints of the site, and is a functional plan that should begin construction.

Quote from: jason_contentdg on November 24, 2009, 11:43:02 AM
Exactly Lake, good design does not have to cost any more than bad design.

It doesn't have to, but when we're talking about iconic architecture (like Anaheim) it usually does

Quote from: tufsu1 on November 24, 2009, 12:54:09 PM

Quote from: jason_contentdg on November 24, 2009, 11:43:02 AM
Exactly Lake, good design does not have to cost any more than bad design.

It doesn't have to, but when we're talking about iconic architecture (like Anaheim) it usually does

In our case, we're already up there.  So in essence, like the courthouse, we're spending iconic level money for generic design.  I think that's what probably gets under the skin of most design oriented people.  It doesn't bother me so much, which is probably more of a result of not getting my expectations up too high on many of the proposed projects.

Ock, I can't believe you posted a BRT video. Now what would be the story line if the city in that video were Jacksonville? I could only imagine the uproar on the site.

Ock - putting a greyhound station on the fringe of downtown is good policy. Jax's current greyhound location in the heart of the CBD office core is TERRIBLE placement. It was hardly anti-urban thinking for Boston to build their new greyhound station on the extreme Southern fringe of their downtown, and it's not inappropriate for Jax to do likewise. I don't think that aspect of the plan has ever been in serious dispute.

I'm kind of offended that you think it's valid to dismiss my comments as "Jax-think" which I think devolves the conversation into more of a personal attack. Especially since there's plenty of valid urban theory to support the notion of moving an intercity bus station out of the smack-dab center of your office core.

Joe, no insult intended and I'm sorry if you took it that way. I get just as insulted when folks dismiss transportation modes as nasty, it just isn't true. Jax-Think, usually applies to those who have spent a lifetime here and this is generally what they know of metro living. Hell I've spent a lifetime here one summer!

FSUJAX, the weather channel forcast for HELL today? Very cold, freezing rain falling. Just note the words DONE RIGHT. Diamond and colored lanes + GPS + Signal priority + que jumpers. No need for a billion dollar bus freeway.



OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: fsujax on November 24, 2009, 01:54:37 PM
Ock, I can't believe you posted a BRT video. Now what would be the story line if the city in that video were Jacksonville? I could only imagine the uproar on the site.

Imo, Birmingham and Jax are kissing cousins.  Both backwards and slow behind the curve to a degree, but Jax is blessed with a superior natural physical location.  

Anyway, the Birmingham video is impressive.  I hope that is what JTA's BRT plan resembles, especially in the North Corridor.  However, as great as Birmingham's presentation was, it won't spur infill development (I don't count the projects that would come regardless of if the project is constructed or not) like rail would.  I also question the validity of the thought that its inexpensive or easy to build two systems (ex. bus line first, then convert it to rail).  If that were the case, most major cities would have been doing it for years.  Nevertheless, not many would be against having reliable bus service with decent headways.  For some reason, we just decide to coin it under the term BRT and claim it like rail.

In the end, as long as BRT is designed to complement rail and improve regular bus service, its fine.  The problem arises when its sold as a replacement under the claim that it gives a community the same benefits at a cheaper cost.  That's simply not true.

"For some reason, we just decide to coin it under the term BRT and claim it like rail." as sad as it is to say this, it is because of FTA, and recieving federal dollars to do these projects. 

It is sad, but to win public support at a local level, it may need to be rebranded and promoted for what it really is.  A reliable standard of bus service (not a replacement or stepping stone to LRT) that should expected on the major streets of any major American city.

Re-branding is a good idea...but it still has to be "classified" as BRT to be eligible for FTA New Starts (and similar) funds.

Classification on a federal level is one thing.  However, it doesn't have to be presented the public that way.  It does no one any good to claim it can bring things and a panacea that it can't deliver on.  That only breeds public mistrust and disappointment when the thing is finally operational. Re-branding on a public level and how its presented to the local population should not distract from the federal funding process but it would enhance the acceptance of bus improvements locally and save JTA from a few public hearing butt whippings.

QuoteBRT, this transport hybrid could be the answer for many not-so-well-off countries in cutting down carbon dioxide emissions. It is a shining example of ingenuity and sincerity bearing fruit in our fight for global survival...
(THIS IS TYPICAL OF THE CRAP I'VE LIFTED FROM A BRT WEBSITE, FEELING FUZZY YET?).

(http://www.whatsonxiamen.com/news_images/77102503.jpg)
This is what JTA planned before we jumped in this fight.

(http://www.naparstek.com/uploaded_images/BRT-718460.jpg)
This is what JTA should get.

(http://secalgarynews.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/brt-575.jpg)
This is what JTA will probably get.

Of course Lake, these have been my points for years. Neither the BRT or the People Mover is going to spur new development.

BRT done right is a great thing for those roads that don't quite make the cut for streetcar or other light rail. University and Edgewood come to mind just as a for instance, Blanding, San Jose etc. The benefit of the colors and impressed lane design is a sets a sure, distinct course through the city and removes the guess work. Travel by bus one time on this type of BRT and you'll know where your going before you board a second time. The diamond lanes can be used to maximum benefit of the public by scheduling times of the day when they become transit lanes. Top the whole thing off with twin trolley wires and we have a Kyoto proof connector for rail and skyway. I don't like BRT simply because it has been sold with misrepresentation, sensationalism, and down right deceit, aka: LIES, the BRT think tanks started this intermodal war when, due in no small part, to having a pro oil president, they claimed "Just like rail only cheaper..." NOT! Not even close. 7% of all TOD is generated by BRT, guess what generates the rest? RAIL. I don't believe for a moment that Birmingham style lanes down Lem Turner will trump rail. Even those new Silver Eagle 15's and 20's, or MCI's J4500 or e4500 models are still short of the mark. The worlds are so different that they should NEVER HAVE BEEN COMPAIRED in the first place. But once the rail community got mobilized, BRT has fallen everywhere. The World Models that only a year ago, JTA was touting as the best thing since sex are both being replaced by rail metros. Bogota and Curitiba, oh, and Santiago De Chili has already replaced their system with rail. Sure these cities will continue to have BRT, we all should, but the BRT will never again challenge rail nose to nose.

Remember the JTA consultants sold us the Skyway the Skyway, even publishing the findings of a study that showed that diesel buses violate the human ear noise tolerance and thus should be banished from downtown. Now the same bunch is telling us "Just like rail only cheaper..." I ain't drinking this swill.

OCKLAWAHA

This plan looks way too unrealistic. Amtrak's not going to use it at least until they have trains running on the FEC. The most striking thing I find is that they're putting most of the money of this into the Skyway portion of this transit center. Nobody uses it now, what makes anybody think they're gonna use it just because Amtrak and Greyhound are put there? This transit center should be focused on commuter rail operations. The Skyway should seriously be dismantled unless they can extend it to the beaches, speed up the operations, and make it more commuter rail like (probably not possible).

Quote from: Murjax on November 25, 2009, 12:29:34 AM
This plan looks way too unrealistic. Amtrak's not going to use it at least until they have trains running on the FEC. The most striking thing I find is that they're putting most of the money of this into the Skyway portion of this transit center. Nobody uses it now, what makes anybody think they're gonna use it just because Amtrak and Greyhound are put there? This transit center should be focused on commuter rail operations. The Skyway should seriously be dismantled unless they can extend it to the beaches, speed up the operations, and make it more commuter rail like (probably not possible).

The Skyway has a place, but not at the Beach. This is a system designed to run within I-95 on the west, 8Th Street on the north, the river to the east, and Atlantic on the south. This is all from the original and subsequent studies. People got the false idea while being swept up in the Skyway mania of the 1980's and 90's, that any day these little trains would be coming up their street, an idea that wasn't EVER going to happen, wasn't planned to happen, and won't ever happen. The problem is, it is not integrated into a regional vision of transit. It was planned to connect the fringe of the urban area at large parking garages and intermodal stations. Buses downtown were to be a thing of the past, JTA even came up with medical evidence that diesel buses are WAY too noisy, violating the safe human limits, and thus would be banned in the CBD.

No part of the bus/Skyway plan was ever acted on after two great intermodal stations were built. The city torpedoed the whole project by duplicating the peripheral parking in the city center, usually on lot sites that had been tax paying private holdings. Then also according to the studies, not a single leg of the system was ever even finished beyond Union Station (POCC). I'm telling you folks, these guys wouldn't pass "General Urban Transit 101" if I was teaching it.

When we think of really good transit systems world wide, or of building one at home, ALWAYS think in terms of a matrix. Transit should look like a multicolored Indian blanket, with choices of route after route tightly connected and interwoven, bus, rail, auto, BRT, LRT, streetcar, water, hell I'll even toss in my Zeppelin concept, let's fly THAT to the Beaches.

OCKLAWAHA

I don't understand why a train type transit system couldn't be incorporated into the JTB widening project to connect into the I-95 corridor and into the downtown area.

Quote from: JaxNative68 on November 25, 2009, 08:02:42 AM
I don't understand why a train type transit system couldn't be incorporated into the JTB widening project to connect into the I-95 corridor and into the downtown area.

It certainly could, there are also a number of high voltage transmission line rights of way, such as alongside Kernan, 9-A on the northside, Westlake, Cecil, etc. A couple of interesting locations just south of JTB from roughly Philips east to the Kernan route. The Kernan route goes both to a river crossing and to the Beaches midway between Atlantic and Beach. The problem is to build it where there is light density is to invite disaster, and to build where the population is dense is too costly.

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Ocklawaha on November 25, 2009, 12:57:19 AM

Quote from: Murjax on November 25, 2009, 12:29:34 AM
This plan looks way too unrealistic. Amtrak's not going to use it at least until they have trains running on the FEC. The most striking thing I find is that they're putting most of the money of this into the Skyway portion of this transit center. Nobody uses it now, what makes anybody think they're gonna use it just because Amtrak and Greyhound are put there? This transit center should be focused on commuter rail operations. The Skyway should seriously be dismantled unless they can extend it to the beaches, speed up the operations, and make it more commuter rail like (probably not possible).

The Skyway has a place, but not at the Beach. This is a system designed to run within I-95 on the west, 8Th Street on the north, the river to the east, and Atlantic on the south. This is all from the original and subsequent studies. People got the false idea while being swept up in the Skyway mania of the 1980's and 90's, that any day these little trains would be coming up their street, an idea that wasn't EVER going to happen, wasn't planned to happen, and won't ever happen. The problem is, it is not integrated into a regional vision of transit. It was planned to connect the fringe of the urban area at large parking garages and intermodal stations. Buses downtown were to be a thing of the past, JTA even came up with medical evidence that diesel buses are WAY too noisy, violating the safe human limits, and thus would be banned in the CBD.

No part of the bus/Skyway plan was ever acted on after two great intermodal stations were built. The city torpedoed the whole project by duplicating the peripheral parking in the city center, usually on lot sites that had been tax paying private holdings. Then also according to the studies, not a single leg of the system was ever even finished beyond Union Station (POCC). I'm telling you folks, these guys wouldn't pass "General Urban Transit 101" if I was teaching it.

When we think of really good transit systems world wide, or of building one at home, ALWAYS think in terms of a matrix. Transit should look like a multicolored Indian blanket, with choices of route after route tightly connected and interwoven, bus, rail, auto, BRT, LRT, streetcar, water, hell I'll even toss in my Zeppelin concept, let's fly THAT to the Beaches.

OCKLAWAHA

What's this Zeppelin concept you speak of? I was kind of kidding when I said extend the skyway to the Beaches, but they seriously need something. My point with the Skyway is it exactly what you said. It was designed to connect parking garages. The skyway should be a very small part of this transit center. This plan looks like the skyway is the main part of it while the Amtrak and maybe future commuter rail platforms are treated like a "side dish". This gives me the feel that a vital part of this "matrix" is being ignored. That's just my opinion though.

Really need to do a feature article on this y'all. Some may not know it but Zeppelin's made by Zeppelin Corporation are back and coming on with a vengeance.
http://www.youtube.com/v/IG2QNh6jCo8&hl=en_US&fs=1&color1=0x402061&color2=0x9461ca&border=1"></param><param%20name=
USS AKRON ZRS-4

Here is some vintage footage of a Zeppelin NOT CRASHING, struting it's versitality. 

http://www.youtube.com/v/g3N1dlQLAZE&hl=en_US&fs=1&color1=0x402061&color2=0x9461ca&border=1"></param><param%20name=
Lockheed Martin P-791

Told y'all this was going to come along, wait until Boeing's takes flight, it will dwarf everything in the air today, by the way the dumb ass that uploaded this to YouTube, wouldn't know a Zeppelin if it sat in his face and danced.

http://www.youtube.com/v/cKk_4A6wdDU&hl=en_US&fs=1&color1=0x402061&color2=0x9461ca&border=1
Zeppelin NT in San Francisco.

30 years ago I was pleading, BEGGING our city to reconsider the Skyway and build the FIRST VINTAGE STREETCAR LINE in America... They thought I was crazy and asked me to "get out of town..." Now I'm starting to howl, THIS IS NEXT, Port Authority, Cecil Field, Airship Ventures plans to bring the Zeppelin to Florida next, I know, you think I'm crazy and some already wish I'd shut up! NOT! One more time God has smiled on us and given us an opportunity to snatch this beast before Mickey does. These are just samples of the craft to come. Note that short landing field, about a city block is all they use. Think priority shipments, Port Authority, tourism, Aviation Authority, Coastal shuttle, Transportation Authority... Just THINK.

This isn't exactly my plan but has some elements of it, and hopefully gets people thinking ABOVE the box.

OCKLAWAHA

This could work, but I doubt it would do any good for people if it operated out of Cecil as the CSX line is right there. You would need to build some kind of "port" in Jax Beach probably and it would need Zeppelins coming in and out pretty frequently. What about fuel? Are Zeppelins fuel efficient?

Sorry if I've been slow to answer, been working on all kinds of projects today. A classic Zeppelin with a much heavier airframe could carry 70 tons up to 800 miles, or 60 tons 8,600 miles, at a cost of 1 cent per Ton Mile. This in excess of the crew, fuel and other sundry weights. The new ones are virtual VTOL aircraft, meaning a spot like Imeson Industrial Park could be put into service as a Zeppelin Port, between JIA and JPA. The smallish size of these new ships will soon pass, look for the economical giants to return, with much bigger payloads. The new Zeppelin frame is based on a triangle with three ridged supports running horizontally, more then twice as light as all previous models.

Hope someone is listening.

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Ocklawaha on November 25, 2009, 05:16:11 PM
Sorry if I've been slow to answer, been working on all kinds of projects today. A classic Zeppelin with a much heavier airframe could carry 70 tons up to 800 miles, or 60 tons 8,600 miles, at a cost of 1 cent per Ton Mile. This in excess of the crew, fuel and other sundry weights. The new ones are virtual VTOL aircraft, meaning a spot like Imeson Industrial Park could be put into service as a Zeppelin Port, between JIA and JPA. The smallish size of these new ships will soon pass, look for the economical giants to return, with much bigger payloads. The new Zeppelin frame is based on a triangle with three ridged supports running horizontally, more then twice as light as all previous models.

Hope someone is listening.

OCKLAWAHA

I'm listening. I can definitely see this having its place in transport. If one could make a small version of this for personal use they can become as common as the car. One question though. Would it be able to stop at a bunch of small ports along a certain route like rapid transit or a bus? Aircraft are usually designed to travel long distances nonstop. This would be a new situation.

Ock: the day Jax gets a Zepplin transport system is the day I buy you all the beverages you can drink in an evening.

Make that a public transport system, not the MetLife (or other) blimp flying over an event.

And city or federal run . . . Could I flounder any more?

After speaking with politicians and lobbyists, I am convinced that rail of ANY SORT is a long way off for Jax, no one here in town really cares about it. No one has gone on record, publicly, to state that they have the funds for it. Till that happens, I doubt anything will ever happen.

Quote from: Murjax on November 25, 2009, 06:46:56 PM

Quote from: Ocklawaha on November 25, 2009, 05:16:11 PM
Sorry if I've been slow to answer, been working on all kinds of projects today. A classic Zeppelin with a much heavier airframe could carry 70 tons up to 800 miles, or 60 tons 8,600 miles, at a cost of 1 cent per Ton Mile. This in excess of the crew, fuel and other sundry weights. The new ones are virtual VTOL aircraft, meaning a spot like Imeson Industrial Park could be put into service as a Zeppelin Port, between JIA and JPA. The smallish size of these new ships will soon pass, look for the economical giants to return, with much bigger payloads. The new Zeppelin frame is based on a triangle with three ridged supports running horizontally, more then twice as light as all previous models.

Hope someone is listening.

OCKLAWAHA

I'm listening. I can definitely see this having its place in transport. If one could make a small version of this for personal use they can become as common as the car. One question though. Would it be able to stop at a bunch of small ports along a certain route like rapid transit or a bus? Aircraft are usually designed to travel long distances nonstop. This would be a new situation.

Certainly the zeppelin is the right bus for that trick, either STOL or VTOL flights are now possible. In practice this will translate to the ability to stop most anywhere there is a flat spot, and since they use zero fuel to maintain flight, they do this much cheaper then the Heavy's. The first intercontinental polar flight was by a zeppelin. The first East to West crossing of the Atlantic was by a zeppelin. The first circumnavigation of the earth was also achieved by a zeppelin, and all of this was done by the end of the 1920's.

My thinking is to tie this into bulky but highly valuable and urgent trans oceanantic shipments. Tech toys, Oil field fittings, tooling etc... At 80 mph the flight from zeppelin at Friedrichshafen to Jacksonville, is around 40 hours +/-, not a ship on the sea could come anywhere close. The return flight to Germany would be as much as 10 hours shorter due to prevailing winds. Imagine a FEDEX express, at ocean prices and air speeds of up to 100 mph. To perform this trip according to CBS news research, the Zeppelin would burn up as much fuel as a large jet burns on the taxiway between the gate and the end of the runway.

'luftschiff hoch!

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: JaxNative68 on November 25, 2009, 11:05:48 PM
Ock: the day Jax gets a Zepplin transport system is the day I buy you all the beverages you can drink in an evening.

Considering that Airship Ventures, owners of the Zeppelin NT in California is seriously planning a ship for Florida, you might want to hedge that bet. We also have a active LTA field at both Craig Field, and Orlando. There is also a large new zeppelin being built here in the state for some high tech purpose, maybe national defense. With our port flirting with Hamburg Sud, we would be dumb as a sack of ballast not to push, pull and beg for this.

OCKLAWAHA

The city's leaders lack vision when it comes to asking Amtrak to move its station back to the Union Terminal building.  It is disgusting that rail passengers are relegated to an 'Amshack' on the Northside.  Passenger rail deserves better in our city. 
I know that we can do better than a hole in the wall that is hidden away from most people.  I know that we can do better than a rail station that has no decent dining or lodging.  We can do better than having city leaders who sit on their hands while other cities upgrade or improve their Amtrak stations.

Jaxson...........till the current Administration is run out of town on a rail forget it! Those turkeys will have to be shown the door and even that is no guarantee they will leave town.......too used to feeding at the public trough so I look for them to continue to bleeding us dry! Ock.....you forgot about Kissimmee! Airship International did have a hanger at one time there for "Shamu" which was an Airship 500 series if I remember correctly! I did get to upgrade the interior on that one as well as "Snoopy" the Metlife blimp. The principal stockholder had a Lear24 that got upgraded, was involved in that one also, Mr Pearlman was a very large fellow and had to beef up and re-foam for a person 280 pounds. Very tastefull interior but I digress............Hanger was there at one time!

Quote from: Jaxson on November 26, 2009, 04:43:24 PM
The city's leaders lack vision when it comes to asking Amtrak to move its station back to the Union Terminal building.  It is disgusting that rail passengers are relegated to an 'Amshack' on the Northside.  Passenger rail deserves better in our city. 
I know that we can do better than a hole in the wall that is hidden away from most people.  I know that we can do better than a rail station that has no decent dining or lodging.  We can do better than having city leaders who sit on their hands while other cities upgrade or improve their Amtrak stations.

Quote from: CS Foltz on November 26, 2009, 06:51:22 PM
Jaxson...........till the current Administration is run out of town on a rail forget it! Those turkeys will have to be shown the door and even that is no guarantee they will leave town.......too used to feeding at the public trough so I look for them to continue to bleeding us dry!

Jaxson, First off, congrats on being one of the first people here to use our "official" nickname as citizens of Jacksonville. I get sick of the Jacksonvillian jokes... ITS JAXSON'S PEOPLE!

Our failure is even deeper then that, until this last director, JTA has had three transportation agendas, roads, roads and roads. This is fed by the knee jerk Conservative politics of the locals, most of whom walk in lock step with the Bush-Reagan treatment of Rail. Our city even refused to consider a resolution of support for Amtrak on the FEC. THE ONLY CITY NOT TO GET ONBOARD, thank Councilman Bishop for that. We couldn't wait to rebuild our Union Terminal into a worthless convention center, these same "leaders" blew off the consultants recommendation's on the Skyway and built the East-West line downtown in the wrong direction. Not one of the 14 probable routes was ever built to a state of completion. Then you have the trumped up "ridership numbers," which they based on parking lots on Jefferson, and on Bay, and the "huge crowds" going to the Convention Center.

Hell y'all it took us TEN YEARS + and Ed Muller at JTA to get one City bus route to stop at Amtrak. But then to be fair, it's almost the same story with the Airport. Public Transportation, "not worthy of Jacksonville?"

We are very involved in Rail and Transit in general here in town, we sat in a meeting where Amtrak said they wanted to give us 15 daily trains, 5 on each route South daily. They want to return the Palmetto (again) and a link to Atlanta and New Orleans. They said they want to come home to Union Terminal and the FEC, and thought the Skyway could play a big role in moving passengers downtown. Besides refusing to support them or asking for additional service, it should be noted the City did two things about it. ONE: They immediately cut the Skyway schedule making it even more useless. TWO: They nixed the idea of a new Convention Center, insuring the Transportation Center will be a worthless homeless camp. This war is far from over, but I think y'all are going to learn very soon we have just reversed the losses "suffered at Gettysburg..." and avenged Jacksonville and Florida.

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-jul-jacksonville-to-miami-passenger-rail-returning

Quote from: CS Foltz on November 26, 2009, 06:51:22 PM
Ock.....you forgot about Kissimmee! Airship International did have a hanger at one time there for "Shamu" which was an Airship 500 series if I remember correctly! I did get to upgrade the interior on that one as well as "Snoopy" the Metlife blimp. The principal stockholder had a Lear24 that got upgraded, was involved in that one also, Mr Pearlman was a very large fellow and had to beef up and re-foam for a person 280 pounds. Very tastefull interior but I digress............Hanger was there at one time!

Sorry for the foh pah on Kissimmee, having lived in Lake Mary, Orlando, and Winter Park, I just sort of lump the whole area into O-Town together. Since you broke it down, the other field is at Herndon Airport in the edge of downtown. Guess Pearlman and I could have been twins from different mothers, sometimes I feel like the Graf Zeppelin. It would be most cool to meet you at one of our functions, if you'd like to help set off the alarms about what Zeppelin, Airship Ventures, Lockhead Martin and Boeing are pioneering. LTA+RAIL could well be the future.

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Special%20Effects%20Images/Graf_Ocklawaha.gif)

Quote from: mtraininjax on November 26, 2009, 12:27:39 AM
After speaking with politicians and lobbyists, I am convinced that rail of ANY SORT is a long way off for Jax, no one here in town really cares about it. No one has gone on record, publicly, to state that they have the funds for it. Till that happens, I doubt anything will ever happen.

You might be shocked at what has been going on around here Mtrain, however as far as I can tell, some of this seems to be a done deal. Stay tuned, it seems we have awakened a sleeping giant and filled it with great resolve. About to go 8 for 8... Whoa man, awesome!

OCKLAWAHA
"IT'S NOT REVENGE I SEEK, IT'S A RECKONING!"

Quote from: mtraininjax on November 26, 2009, 12:27:39 AM
After speaking with politicians and lobbyists, I am convinced that rail of ANY SORT is a long way off for Jax, no one here in town really cares about it. No one has gone on record, publicly, to state that they have the funds for it. Till that happens, I doubt anything will ever happen.

The Amtrak FEC corridor project looks pretty encouraging.  Let's hope it wins some HSR stimulus dollars.

You're so right about the restoration of a train terminal in downtown. To turn Union Station back into a focal feature with an visual avenue leading down Water Street to it's entrance would be a big boost for Amtrack and create a walkable avenue ripe for small business and shops.  Making Union Station the focus instead a hokey government office building featuring a clock tower would do more at less cost for that neighborhood.

Quote from: lindab on November 27, 2009, 09:12:17 AM
You're so right about the restoration of a train terminal in downtown. To turn Union Station back into a focal feature with an visual avenue leading down Water Street to it's entrance would be a big boost for Amtrack and create a walkable avenue ripe for small business and shops.  Making Union Station the focus instead a hokey government office building featuring a clock tower would do more at less cost for that neighborhood.

Union Station as ground transporte central + streetcars would touch of a wild fire of development.

A Transportation Center broadcast all over LaVilla + a dead Convention Center will shift the focus of some homeless, who will be sleeping in the empty spaces created by horribly located "retail" shops.

OCKLAWAHA

"Ahh, wouldn't it be loverly!"

Sometimes, I wonder if our city leaders even care about downtown.  They seem to be ignorant of the possibilities that would come with moving the passenger rail terminal to the Union Terminal facility. 
Think of the hotels, restaurants and retail that would benefit from Amtrak passengers.  Instead of reyling on ancient snack machines at the current hole in the wall station, passengers could stop by the Jacksonville Landing for a meal.  And think about the passengers who could stay at nearby hotels. 
Right now, Amtrak dumps people off in the middle of a sketchy side of town.  This is the face that we present to people who may be coming into Jacksonville for the first time.  It's a shame!

BTW - Thanks, Ock on noticing my nickname!

What is sickening about JTA's proposal for this transportation center is that they are NOT being smarter than a fifth grader!

First, if money is an issue, why do they need to build a new administration/office building?  That should be the last phase.  All initial monies found should go toward doing the TRANSPORTATION infrastructure to world class standards.  After all, isn't that the real purpose of this project? Or, is it to get a new office building sneaked in for JTA bureaucrats?  No office buildings for now should free up millions that could be used to do the rest of the project right.  And, turning the design upside down to accommodate the concourse connecting to the office building over locating it to provide the most direct connections for the traveling public is outright idiocy.

Second, Ock and Lake are right.  The site needs to be more compact to minimize the efforts and distances needed to transfer from one transit mode to another.  Again, let's keep our eye on the ball.  This is supposed to be an INTERMODAL facility, right?!

Next, we should cater to our most viable and desirable transit options.  Commuter rail, street cars, ordinary bus service, pedestrian walkways, taxis, and bicycles.  NOT disproven concepts like the $ky-high-way and BRT.

Finally, we should apply proven, best practice concepts for outstanding urban design.  Connectivity, street friendly, accessibility, and multi-use.  That means street level retail and entertainment, tourist and visitor draws and services, hotels, offices, public green spaces, etc. master planned to be built AFTER the transit functions are up and running.  Are those ingredients all evident here?

If we can't do this right, better to hold off.  We need to stop producing third rate projects (the convention center, courthouse, $ky-high-way, city supported developments [Hyatt, Shipyards, Cecil, LaVilla, etc.) just to do things.  It's why Jax is often spinning wheels to climb the ladder to the next level.

By the way, I don't think money is the real issue.  It's lack of planning, vision, drive, and mostly a fifth grader's COMMON SENSE!   ???

Here is a recent example of one of those City of Jax projects that doesn't stand the test of time.  An oversized ugly box hotel built so we could get the SuperBowl.  I guess no one figured what would happen for the next 50 years after that.  That would take vision.

As I recall, somewhere I read the Hyatt/Adams Mark is having these problems even after getting some $22 million in incentives/free land from the City.  And, the Hyatt people got a deal on it when the Adams Mark management was forced to unload the hotel after not doing well.

QuoteNOVEMBER 25, 2009

Helping Hand by Hyatt Hotels
A Delinquent Mortgage Is Made Current Again at a Jacksonville Property

Amid the commotion of hotel owners and hotel operators fighting about cutting costs in this downturn, there are occasions in which operators pull out all the stops to make sure that owners don't go under.

Case in point: Hyatt Hotels Corp. this month helped the owner of the 966-room Hyatt Regency Jacksonville in Florida avoid default on its $150 million securitized mortgage.

The hotel, owned by Chartres Lodging Group LLC, had gone delinquent on its mortgage last month, according to debt-rating company Realpoint LLC. The hotel's occupancy and average rate, which registered 56% and $119, respectively, at the end of June, have suffered amid the downturn and a sharp drop in corporate meetings, Realpoint says.

In stepped Hyatt, which agreed to cover as much as $5 million in payments on the mortgage in the event Chartres couldn't. Hyatt also pledged to cut its management fee in exchange for an extension of the pact's term and to pay up to $1 million in future costs for furniture, fixtures and equipment. Hyatt declined to comment. But the benefits for Hyatt likely are the extension of its management contract and avoiding disruption.

After Hyatt's contributions, the hotel's mortgage was again classified this month as current. "The loan and the property are in good standing," says Chartres president and co-founder Robert D. Kline.
â€"Kris Hudson

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703819904574556191464816208.html

Connectivity should include the Skyway too, however I'd agree that the station is already there. As we keep telling them, no point reinventing the wheel, use what we have. I suspect all of the dollars planned for the Skyway station have something to do with the "pretty" on JTA's new office building. Even with the grand old station as a Convention Center, the Skyway station should have been built right from the start, en-training and de-training passengers directly across the street from the main concourse of the old station. I mean if we really just had to build another city blocks distance it should have been to FCCJ and not ?? on Bay.

The Skyway will be valuable to Amtrak, and intercity bus passengers going up town, to government centers, ATT, Federal Courthouse, new Courthouse, the Omni, FSCJ, or the Southbank hotels and offices. Anyone going to Landing, TUPAC, CofC, Hyatt, Florida Theater, Blue Cross, Fidelity, Art Market, Cummer, 5-points, Publix, St. Vincents and hopefully Park & King and/or Avondale.

Money the issue? Not a chance, nobody is on the street corner handing out millions, but these projects were written in stone sometime ago.  JTA is over the barrel on this too, because the City is feeling the pressure on these issues and has pretty much told them to proceed. The issue is the old Jacksonville game of "do something - even if it's wrong."  You can always fool some of the people with brick walls and rubber tired trolleys, what they haven't counted on is they can't fool ALL OF THE PEOPLE!

It appears that nowhere did the COJ or JTA look at this from the point of view of "what is missing," thus setting the most urgent priority. Greyhound has a nice station and could stay there for many more years, JTA has two intermodal facilities one on each side of the river. The Skyway already has "Urinal Central," stations that are not maintained, it sure as hell doesn't need another one in LaVilla.

Well now, who did we leave out?

Hum? Wonder?

Come on 5Th graders... Let's teach the poor dummy's.

Hum?

RAIL! Oh my God! We forgot all about rail! Oh how funny. Let's see, streetcar really doesn't need a
station, but if we're sending buses and BRT through the station, maybe we should consider reopening the Myrtle Street Tunnel and head into Riverside and Brooklyn the way Jacksonville Traction did in the early 1900's. Doing this would mean our streetcars would roll between the rail and bus sides on the original streetcar route. Besides this, imagine if we included Amtrak. Gee this is tough, we are missing a railroad station. On the one hand we need a station, and on the other we own the largest station south of Washington DC. So  obviously, putting two and two together we turn the train station into a convention Center and plan to do a "new" railroad depot in a phase II, somewhere down the road.

Damn! Just Damn!

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: stjr on November 27, 2009, 02:41:27 PM
First, if money is an issue, why do they need to build a new administration/office building? 

Because that building will also serve as the Traffic Management Center....which allows for the use of non-transit funding from FDOT....who btw, is the primary funding entity for the Center.

If the Skyway is going to serve people getting on or off Amtrak trains like Ock says, then shouldn't the Skyway be placed closer to the platforms? I'm still bothered by that Skyway station being all the way on the other side of the Convention Center. That's a heck of a long walk. I would rather see the Skyway platforms ABOVE Amtrak's so it would be an easy transfer.

I don't think its that bad...when I was in college in Philly I made a similar walk from the 30th Street subway station to the 30th St Amtrak Station...if you don't have a car waiting for you, a 2-3 block walk is no big deal. 

Quote from: tufsu1 on November 28, 2009, 01:33:15 PM
I don't think its that bad...when I was in college in Philly I made a similar walk from the 30th Street subway station to the 30th St Amtrak Station...if you don't have a car waiting for you, a 2-3 block walk is no big deal. 

It's not a bad walk if it doesn't take up much of the travel time. A subway will take you across town and an average Amtrak Northeast Regional or Acela trip takes between 1 and 6 hours. A 3 block walk means very little there. I see the Skyway differently though. If someone gets off an Amtrak train here and they want to transfer to the Skyway well it's clear they don't have very far to go. If your destination is FCCJ's Downtown campus are you better off having someone pick you up in the parking lot near the Amtrak platforms or will a 5 minute added walk plus Skyway be quicker?

Outside of accessing Hemming Plaza, transferring to the skyway would be completely useless under current plans.  BRT and the streetcar would take you everywhere the skyway goes and you would not have to go up and down a flight of stairs to access either.

This is true, however, Every single study done on the Skyway's Final Plan had it running from Jacksonville Terminal to the Stadium, and from Shand's to San Marco, plus a Riverside branch. In my mind, when we say Skyway, we are embracing all of the above. When/if this city gets leadership back at the top, we might see the little system reach some of it's potential. The technology is not as flawed as our implementation of it, going to the POCC back in the 1980's was dumb as a duck. The studies said Hogan to WATER and EAST to Government Centers. True to form, we blew that royally then tried to make excuses why the ridership never got anywhere near even 15% of the projected ridership. Ultimately we hurt mass-transit and the Skyway, perhaps beyond repair. The City must learn to follow the dotted line, quit dreaming of office towers and full stadiums and deal with what we have. When that is done the future will take care of itself.

Imagine Amtrak and a Skyway transfer to Shand's. Imagine Amtrak and a Skyway transfer to Berkman. From the Hilton to Amtrak in one easy transfer. The whole thing is in our hands, now is the time, we can't afford to let the Obama years pass without action on ALL MODES.

OCKLAWAHA

^All of that is out of the window now.  Why take the skyway to Shands if you can take BRT via Broad/Boulevard?  Why take the skway to the stadium if you can take the streetcar via Water and Bay?  Why take the skyway to St. Vincents if you can take the streetcar?  Wrong or right, the skyway has been left to die.

Quote from: thelakelander on November 28, 2009, 02:56:35 PM
Outside of accessing Hemming Plaza, transferring to the skyway would be completely useless under current plans.  BRT and the streetcar would take you everywhere the skyway goes and you would not have to go up and down a flight of stairs to access either.

Agreed...but I think that commuter rail/Amtrak may happen before streetcar....so the Skyway would play a rather important role in connections to/from downtown at least on an interim basis.

Quote from: tufsu1 on November 27, 2009, 08:37:42 PM

Quote from: stjr on November 27, 2009, 02:41:27 PM
First, if money is an issue, why do they need to build a new administration/office building? 

Because that building will also serve as the Traffic Management Center....which allows for the use of non-transit funding from FDOT....who btw, is the primary funding entity for the Center.

FDOT, JTA, COJ, the Feds... it's all taxpayer money.  If these groups can't work together to get us the best results, then to heck with all of them.  Put the traffic management center on JTA's existing property and move on with the rest of the project.  JTA and COJ, along with our public officials in the state legislature and locally, could easily leverage FDOT to do the right thing.  But, lacking vision and focus, they seem to be MIA. 

Tufsu, I don't want to shoot you as the messenger, but the explanation is unacceptable.  We taxpayers are tired of seeing our money misspent due to bureaucratic bungling and inter-agency squabbling.  This project is an embarrassing example of that behavior.

With all the $ky-high-way talk popping up on this thread, I thought it worthy of reposting below my comments on the subject previously posted on the original MJ thread on the JTC.

JTA and FDOT are creating our own transportation "Nightmare on Elm Bay Street" combining the JTC, BRT, and laughable $ky-high-way.

Quote from: stjr on November 12, 2009, 10:17:55 PM
(http://jacksonville.com/files/imagecache/story_slideshow_thumb/110809TransportationCenter.jpg)

BRT and the $ky-high-way on the same block!  That says it all  :D Need I say more?

Separately, let's do a little virtualization of the future concept.  A commuter train arrives, deposits 300 (a low number for a train) downtown workers at Prime Osborn.  These 300 commuters then walk north the equivalent of a block and a half from the train and through the terminal.  Because JTA workers selfishly want to walk out their office door to play with their expensive toys, commuters must then walk west for another block down the side of the convention center to the "JTA office concourse".  From there, they must again walk north across the street for another half block to the $ky-high-way station.  I count that as a three block walk just to TRANSFER.

And, now for some more fun.  The 300 riders crowd the undersized $ky-high-way platform waiting for the under capacity $ky-high-way to show up every 15 minutes, if they are lucky.  Maybe, after 45 minutes, or more, all 300 have caught a ride "into town".  But wait!  During that 45 minutes or more, another commuter train arrived from the opposite side of town at the Amtrak station and dropped another 300 riders off.  Finally, by mid-afternoon, the $ky-high-way has caught up with the train loads of commuters. This was such a "success", we will repeat the process in reverse in the late afternoon.

Soooo...the question is, how many people are projected to arrive at various intervals on high-capacity commuter trains and how will the low capacity $ky-high-way ever be able to keep up?  And, who will walk three blocks just for an intermodal transfer?  ???  And, we still haven't addressed the $ky-high-way's evil twin, the BRT, and it's added traffic load on the $ky-high-way.  Or is JTA figuring no one is going to ride any of this stuff anyway, so who cares about matching capacities.  The way JTA runs and designs things for failure, they may be right.

From MJ Thread at: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,6735.45.html#quickreply

Quote from: tufsu1 on November 28, 2009, 01:33:15 PM
I don't think its that bad...when I was in college in Philly I made a similar walk from the 30th Street subway station to the 30th St Amtrak Station...if you don't have a car waiting for you, a 2-3 block walk is no big deal. 

Tufsu, I frequently connected from the subway-surface line to 30th Street Station many years ago.  I remember the unbelievable climb from the dimly lit urine and rat infested ancient bowels of the earth (I would say at least 6 or 7 stories below grade), with no working escalators, to get to ground level, only to have to head downward again to the Amtrak lines.  An extreme workout, especially if you were rushing to catch a train!  :D  No one should have to endure that adventure again.  And, few commuters anywhere would endure that today, I am sure.  Part of my complaint with the $ky-high-way is the up/down elevation changes, even with escalators working (which apparently isn't a reliable thing).

Transportation Center does not need to be downtown! If the Center is to be controlling "Traffic Light Issue's" then it can go anywhere there is sufficient property to put it in. In fact there is the unused JEA Control Facility at the end of Roosevelt(US17) that is more than big enough to handle a control center......why has JTA not thought about converting something like that rather than spending money to build from scratch! Judge Moran got his new Office, even though it would have CHEAPER to rehab old Courthouse and the old Annex to achieve the same goals! Tax Payers want prudent cost effective solutions not just keep throwing money at an issue till the problem is solved......grandiose plans are just that! Lets get real with some planning and some vision and some reality just for a change of pace!

Quote from: tufsu1 on November 28, 2009, 10:07:55 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on November 28, 2009, 02:56:35 PM
Outside of accessing Hemming Plaza, transferring to the skyway would be completely useless under current plans.  BRT and the streetcar would take you everywhere the skyway goes and you would not have to go up and down a flight of stairs to access either.

Agreed...but I think that commuter rail/Amtrak may happen before streetcar....so the Skyway would play a rather important role in connections to/from downtown at least on an interim basis.

Unfortunately, the first phase of BRT has been designed to parallel and compete against the skyway for riders.  Outside of Hemming Plaza, the BRT buses will take you within a block of every other skyway station.  According to that Jax Biz Journal TPO article, the first phase of BRT could be up and running by 2011.  That would beat Amtrak/commuter rail and the JTC.

 I don't like JTA's plan for the transit center. It's as if JTA and the city itself are purposefully making it difficult for pedestrians with its sprawling design. They have no idea how to create a world class city, or maybe they just don't want Jacksonville to thrive like other Major cities do. I think metrojacksonville.com should start keeping tabs on every city official, what they stand for, what they're against. More important, we should find out if they'll build us a proud city, or keep us a sprawlling, anti pedestrian, generic, bumpkin town with no cares about the future. This is my first entry but I'm ready to do my part to make Jacksonville a real city again! If anyone has any advice for me on how I can raise awareness, please let me know.

Lakelander, by "duplicate" do you mean "runs in parallel?  Last I heard, the "BRT" will use the Broad/Jefferson one-way pair.  That's about 4-5 blocks west of Hogan, where the Skyway runs north/south.

Granted, the east-west portion of the BRT will run next to the east-west Skyway - but there aren't very many ways to get to Broad/Jefferson from Bay and Forsyth Streets.

A few things stand out to me with the proposed BRT phase one route.

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-5209-brt-phase1.jpg)

1. The skyway's route is completely duplicated on the Southbank.  Taking the skyway from the JTC to the Southbank, one would have to transfer at Central Station.  You would not have to do this or walk up/down a flight of stairs with BRT from the same starting point.  Thus, why walk past ground level transportation, go up a flight of stairs and make an additional transfer to take the skyway to a Southbank destination?

2. As long as the regular bus terminal is Rosa Parks/FSCJ (relocation to the JTC is a future unfunded phase), most buses using Broad & Jefferson will still end up at Rosa Parks/FSCJ, which is the skyway's north terminus.  Typically, a skyway ride from the convention center to FSCJ includes a transfer to a different vehical at Central Station.  If BRT takes you to FSCJ without a transfer or walking up/down a flight of stairs, why take the skyway?

So with duplication to FSCJ and the entire Southbank, that only leaves Hemming Plaza and Central Station (to a lesser degree) as the only places worth catching the skyway to.  Once the streetcar is operational down Water Street, then that only leaves Hemming Plaza.

Point to lakelander.  Had not considered the S.Bank, or that moving the bus transfer to Bay Street was a later phase.

Its nothing new, we pointed this out years ago at a number of public hearings and BRT CAC meetings during the fight to get BRT booted out of the heart of DT (if not even using the skyway to Central or Hemming would have been rendered useless).  We were considered to be an uneducated band of misfits back in those days.  The response was that it complemented instead of duplicated.  I disagree now just as much as I disagreed then.  You win some (no BRT down Adams or elevated dedicated busways) and you lose some (skyway duplication in DT).

Refresh my memory, and for the newer folks.  Given the BRT will exist (I know, but work with me - remember, you lose some), what should the route be DT?  Or should it terminate at the Skyway end stations?

Considering the skyway is already in place, BRT should not stop in DT, other than the Skyway's end points.  This accomplishes two important things:

1. Feeds riders into the skyway.  This way you take advantage of the struggling transit investment already in place.  Imo, this is the true definition of complementing instead of duplicating. 

2. Reduces the overall travel time of BRT.  Not everyone using mass transit is headed to the central business district.  A reduction of DT stops for those not headed to DT means they'll arrive at their destinations earlier. 

Lake and Ock, here are a few questions/comments:

QuoteSorry CS, but Transportation Center is the intermodal passenger station, or in JTA's case a intermodal neighborhood, which definitely needs to be downtown. The traffic control center is a need that was easily rolled into the other neighborhood buildings.

If CSX can run its entire national railroad from a remote facility at McDuff and Beaver, why does JTA/FDOT have to locate its control facility on prime downtown real estate?  CSX's site cost peanuts compared to the value of its HQ's riverfront land downtown.  We taxpayers should follow their example.  Ock, you will have to give us a technical reason why the control center shouldn't be located elsewhere to convince me otherwise.

Lake, regarding the BRT, your map shows it only Downtown.  Why would anyone use it as "rapid transit" for downtown alone?  I don't ever see a bus being "rapid" downtown or over such short distances.  It's the same problem shared by the $ky-high-way.

Further, if BRT eats up a Downtown lane on every block it travels, Downtown traffic will be bottle-necked for sure.  And, cars aside, valuable street real estate will be removed from wider sidewalks for pedestrians, bicycle lanes, street cars, taxi stands, regular buses, landscaping, etc.  If BRT had any real use, it should be akin to commuter rail, not intra-urban core transit.  Unless I am misinterpreting your drawing, BRT looks like it will be the bus version of the $ky-high-way.

Why is JTA so enamored with making the worst possible choices (more roads, BRT and $ky-high-way over street cars, commuter rail, and better existing bus system), poor prioritization (e.g. BRT before Street Cars and existing buses and roads before rail), lousy design (e.g. Jax Transportation Center), and poor fiscal efficiencies (e.g. bloated pensions, wasted dollars on useless and/or poorly executed/planned projects)?   We won't even bring up double talking misleading data such as the bus shelter fiasco.  Does anyone  over there have any common sense?  ???

Quote from: Charles Hunter on November 29, 2009, 09:41:50 PM
Given the BRT will exist (I know, but work with me - remember, you lose some)

Btw, I'm not against the concept of dependable bus service (currently paraded around as a new technology called BRT).  If we strip the bells and whistle terminology and remove the lipstick off the pig this is what it really is.  Every major city needs dependable bus service, no matter how much they invest in other modes of mass transit.

I just don't like when we spend our money on things that don't make sense (ex. I'm a rail supporter who is not crazy about Florida's HSR plan because I don't think it makes much sense).

Quote from: stjr on November 29, 2009, 09:51:43 PM
Lake, regarding the BRT, your map shows it only Downtown.  Why would anyone use it as "rapid transit" for downtown alone?  I don't ever see a bus being "rapid" downtown or over such short distances.  It's the same problem shared by the $ky-high-way.

No. 1. Not all BRT is "rapid" transit.  That's some of the bull we've been repeatedly feed over the years.  What's proposed in Jax is bus service that will run on existing streets, mixed with regular traffic.  In many cases, buses along these corridors will be subject to the same traffic conditions that individual automobile riders face.

No. 2. This map is just the phase one route for BRT.  Imo, its different from the skyway because it is not a fixed transit system.  Every regular bus go through DT will use this bus corridor.  You can say this plan is something like today's Newnan Street with better landscaping, signage and modern amenities.

QuoteFurther, if BRT eats up a Downtown lane on every block it travels, Downtown traffic will be bottle-necked for sure.  And, cars aside, valuable street real estate will be removed from wider sidewalks for pedestrians, bicycle lanes, street cars, taxi stands, regular buses, landscaping, etc.  If BRT had any real use, it should be akin to commuter rail, not intra-urban core transit.  Unless I am misinterpreting your drawing, BRT looks like it will be the bus version of the $ky-high-way.

I think they are going to widen Jefferson and remove a parking lane off Broad.  They should have a minimal impact on DT traffic conditions, especially in the area formerly known as LaVilla.  Nevertheless, I do believe that if they are going to rebuild these streets, bike lanes should be added moreso than widening the sidewalks.

QuoteWhy is JTA so enamored with making the worst possible choices (more roads, BRT and $ky-high-way over street cars, commuter rail, and better existing bus system), poor prioritization (e.g. BRT before Street Cars and existing buses and roads before rail), lousy design (e.g. Jax Transportation Center), and poor fiscal efficiencies (e.g. bloated pensions, wasted dollars on useless and/or poorly executed/planned projects)?   We won't even bring up double talking misleading data such as the bus shelter fiasco.  Does anyone  over there have any common sense?  ???[/b]

I've always said that Jax is about a decade behind its peers on issues like this.  My guess is that our community leaders and JTA have historically been more comfortable with investing in technology they have a better understanding of.  Nevertheless, I do believe that the more people push for progress, this type of thinking will die out.

Quote from: thelakelander on November 29, 2009, 10:11:31 PM

Quote from: stjr on November 29, 2009, 09:51:43 PM
Lake, regarding the BRT, your map shows it only Downtown.  Why would anyone use it as "rapid transit" for downtown alone?  I don't ever see a bus being "rapid" downtown or over such short distances.  It's the same problem shared by the $ky-high-way.

No. 1. Not all BRT is "rapid" transit.  That's some of the bull we've been repeatedly feed over the years.  What's proposed in Jax is bus service that will run on existing streets, mixed with regular traffic.  In many cases, buses along these corridors will be subject to the same traffic conditions that individual automobile riders face.

Here is an example of being subject to the same traffic conditions as regular traffic.  This is an image of an LA Orange Line BRT bus stuck in traffic.  This can be solved by building dedicated busways but doing that typically costs just as much or more than various forms of rail.

(http://www.treehugger.com/los-angeles-brt-orange-line346.jpg)

JTA's BRT sounds like the proverbial horse designed by a committee.  Not good for much of anything, trying to be all things at once.  What is the real point of it?  What service does it provide that isn't or can't be provided by regular buses, street cars, and commuter rail?  I thought it was going to require "dedicated" lanes to work.  It sounds more like a regular bus operating an "express" route in which it goes further distances with fewer stops.  If that's the case, they should call it that: "Express Bus Service".  "Rapid" implies something faster than existing options including cars.  The only way I see a bus being faster than a car is with dedicated lanes and prioritization at signaled junctions. 

Mentioning the removal of parking on Broad...hmmm... another part of the "conspiracy" I alluded to on another MJ board about the gradual removal of street parking in Downtown Jax.  This would be just another example of what I expect to continue.  One day, if JTA/COJ have their way, all asphalt DT will be reserved for moving transit and curb side stopping and parking will be a mere memory.  The street level merchant will have to rely solely on pedestrian traffic.  Will it ever come?  Let's put it this way, I feel sorry for the future of DT street merchants!

In the case of Broad Street, we've already removed the buildings.  Anyway, as far as BRT goes, I would recommend branding it by a different term (at least to the general public), as well.  I'd also recommend establishing the proposed BRT routes/headways with regular buses now.  After all, it really can't hurt anything and it may attract more ridership than we currently have.  In the future, when funding is available for all the bells and whistles, go ahead and add them.

QuoteNo. 1. Not all BRT is "rapid" transit.  That's some of the bull we've been repeatedly feed over the years.  What's proposed in Jax is bus service that will run on existing streets, mixed with regular traffic.  In many cases, buses along these corridors will be subject to the same traffic conditions that individual automobile riders face.

Lake, how did you this information? The BRT in Curitiba is the worlds best, its express services fly along, their record speed is 32 KPH!

OOPS, that's only 19 mph... Light Rail average speed is 23 mph in the USA, the other buses in Curitiba move at 12 mph.

OCKLAWAHA

You can begin by attending a few city council sessions and see how the system works.  Then, you can plan your approach so that it is the most effective.   ;D


Juker777

I know this is a little off subject but can someone explain how BRT is supposed to work? I know what it is, but I can't imagine it fixing anything unless they have their own designated travel lanes like I've heard. I have to wonder though, where do you fit them on roads that have already been expanded to their limit? If you "steal" travel lanes from the driving public, that would just make traffic worse.

It should not clog up traffic because they plan to use dedicated lanes in certain spots and mix them in with regular traffic in others.

However, what it will do is provide bus spines where you know a bus will come every 10 minutes.  That spine will also have bus shelters at all stops, off-bus fare collection, traffic signal priority, and real time travel information.  Its basically the implementation of a dependable high frequency bus corridors.  On BRT corridors, you won't have to worry about sitting in the sun or rain for an hour to catch a bus that may or may not come and possibly take you to a place you didn't mean to go to. 

In other words, something one would expect in any city of decent size.  Any visions outside of this will really set people up for a huge let down when it becomes operational.  However, it can be a huge asset when designed to complement rail spines.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/530723341_h9mzt-M.jpg)

lake I concur with the BRT vision as you outlined and also must agree with the idea of the "RAIL" splines being an integral part of the concept! There in lies the problem with the current Administration.....no vision, no plan and most assuredly no competence! If the current Mayor is concerned about leaving a legacy, he has no legacy other than what he has displayed...............run the City like a business my left ham hock!

Funny stuff...

1922, streetcar schedules tightened to allow a car every 8 minutes in what had been every 10 minutes throughout downtown Jacksonville.

1932, streetcar schedules tightened to allow a car every 5 minutes in what had been every 8 minutes. System sold to Motor Transit Inc, a division of National City Lines, a division of GM and partners Standard Oil, Phillips, Firestone.

1936, streetcar, streetcar routes and schedules replaced with buses.

1952, bus operations cut back due to lack of profit and falling ridership.

1972, bus operations flat line at one bus every 60 minutes.

1982, bus operations tightened to allow one bus every 45 minutes.

2022, BRT bus schedules offer service every 10 minutes... "My how we have advanced!"

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Special%20Effects%20Images/lightningandTRACTION-1-1.jpg)

Yep! How far have we come Ock.............makes me wonder if the same people running things were around back in those days! The same mentality sure as hell is!

Where would you fit dedicated BRT lanes? The only roads I can imagine it being effective on are 9A, 295, JTB, and maybe 95. Dedicating lanes on any other road would just unravel whatever progress was made in Jacksonville's road widening projects. (e.g. Beach Blvd).

To build a system of dedicated lanes, you'll spend just as much or more as building rail from the start.  From what I understand, buses will also run in mixed traffic along most routes.  Depending on levels of congestion, queue jumping and traffic signal priority can be effective as well.

Queue Jump
(http://www.tc.gc.ca/programs/environment/utsp/images/showcaseimages/halifax/lowrez/23.jpg)

(http://www.tc.gc.ca/programs/environment/utsp/images/showcaseimages/halifax/lowrez/27.gif)

As you point out lake..........cost would be as much as rail or more! To me that statement says it all. There just appears to be a group within the City/State that is road oriented period. There is no alternative as far as they are concerned and that philosophy is detrimental to the City and the public overall!

Fortunately, no one is talking about building dedicated busways all over Jax anymore.  We can't afford it.

Your right lake..........and I for one am glad of it! It probably would be cheaper if they (JTA) would just build shelters where needed and actually have a schedule that bus's could be depended on. This is not to mention actual pull off's at all stops that would allow vehicles to pass while taking on or discharging riders!

actually CS, if you ask bus oprators they HATE pull off lanes....primarily because it is hard to get back into the traffic flow.

Quote from: urbaknight on November 29, 2009, 06:44:45 PM
I don't like JTA's plan for the transit center. It's as if JTA and the city itself are purposefully making it difficult for pedestrians with its sprawling design. They have no idea how to create a world class city, or maybe they just don't want Jacksonville to thrive like other Major cities do. I think metrojacksonville.com should start keeping tabs on every city official, what they stand for, what they're against. More important, we should find out if they'll build us a proud city, or keep us a sprawlling, anti pedestrian, generic, bumpkin town with no cares about the future. This is my first entry but I'm ready to do my part to make Jacksonville a real city again! If anyone has any advice for me on how I can raise awareness, please let me know.

Keeping tabs on city officials sounds good to me.

Quote from: thelakelander on November 29, 2009, 09:50:18 PM
Considering the skyway is already in place, BRT should not stop in DT, other than the Skyway's end points.  This accomplishes two important things:

1. Feeds riders into the skyway.  This way you take advantage of the struggling transit investment already in place.  Imo, this is the true definition of complementing instead of duplicating. 

2. Reduces the overall travel time of BRT.  Not everyone using mass transit is headed to the central business district.  A reduction of DT stops for those not headed to DT means they'll arrive at their destinations earlier. 

According to all the lies JTA told way back when the skyway was on the drawing board this is the way it should be.  They even said parking garages were to built on the perimeters of downtown and people would catch the skyway into CBD.

Quote from: Seraphs on December 03, 2009, 05:38:56 PM
According to all the lies JTA told way back when the skyway was on the drawing board this is the way it should be.  They even said parking garages were to built on the perimeters of downtown and people would catch the skyway into CBD.

This IS the way it should be, but when JTA built the Skyway a few things happened nobody expected.

First, nobody foresaw that all of the retail was heading out of downtown. Partly as a result of losing retail and attempting to save it, the CITY not JTA decided to build parking garages all over the CBD. The Skyway was not finished, funding was never secured but some engineering was done to open the line to Shand's via Hogans Creek, the stadium via Bay, and Riverside via Riverside Av.. What little was finished of the Skyway, went the wrong damn way! Sometime before construction, the city and JTA trashed the recommendations of every consultant they ever hired and built West from Hogan and Bay, when the traffic was EAST - AND THEY KNEW IT!

The heritage streetcar would have been far superior to any Skyway project, and upgraded with some transit lane technology, faster and farther. The Skyway should never have been built in the first place. We would have been FIRST to hit the ground with a heritage streetcar, that would have included 5 originals that were still known at that time. It's another great case of "Would of, Could of, Should of..." 

While I agree with BRT on Broad and Jefferson, I stand with Lakelander on NO DUPLICATION of services. I would even support two exclusive BRT busway segments, a flyover from the Acosta to Palm. Another short busway segment on or near Gary St., over the FEC, to Kings Av station. As a result of my stand I can not, and will not, support  BRT on Prudential Drive, or any north-south downtown street South of Union and State, or East of Broad, or west of Main. In almost all cases downtown we have alternatives that make much more sense.

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Juker777 on November 30, 2009, 07:43:49 PM
You can begin by attending a few city council sessions and see how the system works.  Then, you can plan your approach so that it is the most effective.   ;D


Juker777

Thanks Juke, I was using my usual sarcasm here, I see your a newbie so WELCOME! I'm the guy that first proposed HERITAGE STREETCARS and the TRANSPORTATION CENTER, back in the late 70's, and early 80's. The City paid no attention, though we built quite a network for pre-internet times, finally someone suggested I leave town, "for my employment health," (something I thought only happened in the movies). So being the apparent fool that I am, I went south of the border and designed railroads. Hum? THAT WAS EASY! So I've been going to some of those meetings for a long, long, time.

SEE: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2007-nov-27-years-later-jacksonville-transit

OCKLAWAHA

tufsu1..........I would agree! Not being able to enter the traffic flow would also play hell with trying to keep to any kind of a schedule! I don't see any clear cut fix other than maybe a "traffic light" at the stop to allow the bus to enter flow....but then you might have issue's regarding lights and the distances between them which would require moving the stops and in some spots that might not be possible! Lack of planning plays havoc with everything.............go rail and be done with it!

re: OCKLAWAHA-  "That's a pretty impressive design (taking people where they want to go) and video.  What happened with their streetcar proposal?  Did that die when the mayor got arrested and sent to jail?  How much will it cost?"

Yes, convicted Birmingham mayor Larry (La La) Langford's streetcar proposal was predicated on digging up the VERY successful BIRMINGHAM GREEN and replacing it with kitch. The citizens, historic preservationists, business leaders and corporate stake holders said "Over Our Cold, Dead Bodies". So, the council has taken the idea and is working on a route that would leave our trees and primary streetscape intact. The new crooked mayor hopefully won't make the same mistake. But, who knows. Birmingham suffers from "Marion Barry Syndrome", so don't get too worked up about us surpassing Jacksonville. Not Gonna Happen.

As for the video: yeah, it's impressive, but it's not expected to get built anytime soon. Piece-by-piece, but not all at once. Federal money is allocated, but City Hall just can't seem to "get it".

btw, Birmingham is 73% black, and city government is more like 96% black, so that creates major problems, given how our metro is so heavily divided by race, class, economics, urban/rural/suburban battles and cultural mores.

Quote from: thelakelander on December 03, 2009, 07:05:09 AM
Fortunately, no one is talking about building dedicated busways all over Jax anymore.  We can't afford it.

From what I've heard Urbanotter1, looks like the plan has stalled.  I would think race would play a positive role in the Birmingham question.  The African American and Hispanic communities as a whole seems to be much more urban and supportive of public infrastructure projects, and they don't generally mind the ante to pay for it. When we wanted to expand Medellin Metro it was NEVER a question of why or how, just how quick can we build it.  But then the Hispanic community tends to be very Germanic in meticulous paper layers and when they are finished, they'll invent MORE paper layers.  Any good 5 month project can normally take 20-30 years!  Of course the benefit is, THEY do have some rather interesting concepts on streamlining the process!

LAKE: Sorry buddy, but from what we are seeing at JTA, until they have a formal "PLAN BURNING" at some public function, consider the scheme locked and loaded.  Trust our luck with them REALLY putting BRT to bed with about the same odds as you'd give yourself barefooted at midnight, on the Goat Mountain Trail, out by my desert cabin.  OUCH!  If the Cats, Snakes and Dogs don't eat you, the omnipresent cacti will.


OCKLAWAHA

I spit in JTA's milk.............those bovines just don't get it!

Quote from: Ocklawaha on January 22, 2010, 06:01:43 PM
LAKE: Sorry buddy, but from what we are seeing at JTA, until they have a formal "PLAN BURNING" at some public function, consider the scheme locked and loaded.  Trust our luck with them REALLY putting BRT to bed with about the same odds as you'd give yourself barefooted at midnight, on the Goat Mountain Trail, out by my desert cabin.  OUCH!  If the Cats, Snakes and Dogs don't eat you, the omnipresent cacti will.[/color][/b]
OCKLAWAHA

I'm resting my hopes on the Feds.  Their mindset has changed 180 degrees since Obama hit DC.  Can't imagine that original billion dollar busway plan being approved by the feds.  There are too many superior projects across the country also in need of funding.

lake ........I agree! Fed's should have something to say about it, especially if we are gonna use their (Our) money!