Jacksonville Transportation Center moves forward

[thelakelander]

Outside of accessing Hemming Plaza, transferring to the skyway would be completely useless under current plans.  BRT and the streetcar would take you everywhere the skyway goes and you would not have to go up and down a flight of stairs to access either.

Agreed...but I think that commuter rail/Amtrak may happen before streetcar....so the Skyway would play a rather important role in connections to/from downtown at least on an interim basis.

Unfortunately, the first phase of BRT has been designed to parallel and compete against the skyway for riders.  Outside of Hemming Plaza, the BRT buses will take you within a block of every other skyway station.  According to that Jax Biz Journal TPO article, the first phase of BRT could be up and running by 2011.  That would beat Amtrak/commuter rail and the JTC.

[urbaknight]

 I don't like JTA's plan for the transit center. It's as if JTA and the city itself are purposefully making it difficult for pedestrians with its sprawling design. They have no idea how to create a world class city, or maybe they just don't want Jacksonville to thrive like other Major cities do. I think metrojacksonville.com should start keeping tabs on every city official, what they stand for, what they're against. More important, we should find out if they'll build us a proud city, or keep us a sprawlling, anti pedestrian, generic, bumpkin town with no cares about the future. This is my first entry but I'm ready to do my part to make Jacksonville a real city again! If anyone has any advice for me on how I can raise awareness, please let me know.

[Ocklawaha]

I don't like JTA's plan for the transit center. It's as if JTA and the city itself are purposefully making it difficult for pedestrians with its sprawling design. They have no idea how to create a world class city, or maybe they just don't want Jacksonville to thrive like other Major cities do. I think metrojacksonville.com should start keeping tabs on every city official, what they stand for, what they're against. More important, we should find out if they'll build us a proud city, or keep us a sprawlling, anti pedestrian, generic, bumpkin town with no cares about the future. This is my first entry but I'm ready to do my part to make Jacksonville a real city again! If anyone has any advice for me on how I can raise awareness, please let me know.

Allllllllllla board! Welcome UrbanKnight, great to have another crusader join our fight. The advice for the moment is be heard here on MJ. We also have a weekly dinner 6pm-9pm at Hola's Restaurant on North Main, you and anyone else is welcome to join us. At the dinner we usually have some laughs, share events, and to some extent plan steps which often include crashing the City or JTA's meetings. Kudos on the cool Avatar.

Transportation Center does not need to be downtown! If the Center is to be controlling "Traffic Light Issue's" then it can go anywhere there is sufficient property to put it in. In fact there is the unused JEA Control Facility at the end of Roosevelt(US17) that is more than big enough to handle a control center......why has JTA not thought about converting something like that rather than spending money to build from scratch! Judge Moran got his new Office, even though it would have CHEAPER to rehab old Courthouse and the old Annex to achieve the same goals! Tax Payers want prudent cost effective solutions not just keep throwing money at an issue till the problem is solved......grandiose plans are just that! Lets get real with some planning and some vision and some reality just for a change of pace!

Sorry CS, but Transportation Center is the intermodal passenger station, or in JTA's case a intermodal neighborhood, which definitely needs to be downtown. The traffic control center is a need that was easily rolled into the other neighborhood buildings. What needs to be shot in the head, is the "neighborhood," itself, taking all of those scattered elements and plopping them down on the Jacksonville Terminal site. The POCC needs to be torn down (not the historic buildings but the exhibit hall, minus the concourses.

The property at the end of Roosevelt, would be better turned into a rail-streetcar-bus-BRT neighborhood hub with lots of Park and Ride space.

I understand that the old Courthouse is contanimated with asbestos, you probably know with your own work what an expensive mess that is. But even if the asbestos were not present, the building eats up prime riverfront that would bring in premium taxes if recycled to the private sector. Perhaps a more urgent "need," for a new Convention Center could be developed along with Hyatt in a public-private partnership. The new courthouse should have followed the Federal Courthouse in going highrise, but it's all moot now, as we learn to live with the "Explosion in a Pillar Factory."

LAKELANDER, the BRT route downtown should be posted, showing where it duplicates the Skyway and proposed Streetcar. MAYBE we could get JTA to shift it to other streets to spread the downtown matrix a bit. For example Streetcar on Water, Skyway on Bay, BRT on Adams, Streetcar on Duval, BRT on State and Union. I think Streetcar on Lee, BRT on Broadway and Jefferson, Streetcar on Pearl, Skyway on Hogan, BRT on Main, Streetcar on Newnan, and ?? , would take great care of the downtown grid for MANY YEARS to come. Perhaps we could illustrate this concept downtown concept too. [/b]

OCKLAWAHA

[Charles Hunter]

Lakelander, by "duplicate" do you mean "runs in parallel?  Last I heard, the "BRT" will use the Broad/Jefferson one-way pair.  That's about 4-5 blocks west of Hogan, where the Skyway runs north/south.

Granted, the east-west portion of the BRT will run next to the east-west Skyway - but there aren't very many ways to get to Broad/Jefferson from Bay and Forsyth Streets.

[thelakelander]

A few things stand out to me with the proposed BRT phase one route.



1. The skyway's route is completely duplicated on the Southbank.  Taking the skyway from the JTC to the Southbank, one would have to transfer at Central Station.  You would not have to do this or walk up/down a flight of stairs with BRT from the same starting point.  Thus, why walk past ground level transportation, go up a flight of stairs and make an additional transfer to take the skyway to a Southbank destination?

2. As long as the regular bus terminal is Rosa Parks/FSCJ (relocation to the JTC is a future unfunded phase), most buses using Broad & Jefferson will still end up at Rosa Parks/FSCJ, which is the skyway's north terminus.  Typically, a skyway ride from the convention center to FSCJ includes a transfer to a different vehical at Central Station.  If BRT takes you to FSCJ without a transfer or walking up/down a flight of stairs, why take the skyway?

So with duplication to FSCJ and the entire Southbank, that only leaves Hemming Plaza and Central Station (to a lesser degree) as the only places worth catching the skyway to.  Once the streetcar is operational down Water Street, then that only leaves Hemming Plaza.

[Charles Hunter]

Point to lakelander.  Had not considered the S.Bank, or that moving the bus transfer to Bay Street was a later phase.

[thelakelander]

Its nothing new, we pointed this out years ago at a number of public hearings and BRT CAC meetings during the fight to get BRT booted out of the heart of DT (if not even using the skyway to Central or Hemming would have been rendered useless).  We were considered to be an uneducated band of misfits back in those days.  The response was that it complemented instead of duplicated.  I disagree now just as much as I disagreed then.  You win some (no BRT down Adams or elevated dedicated busways) and you lose some (skyway duplication in DT).

[Charles Hunter]

Refresh my memory, and for the newer folks.  Given the BRT will exist (I know, but work with me - remember, you lose some), what should the route be DT?  Or should it terminate at the Skyway end stations?

[thelakelander]

Considering the skyway is already in place, BRT should not stop in DT, other than the Skyway's end points.  This accomplishes two important things:

1. Feeds riders into the skyway.  This way you take advantage of the struggling transit investment already in place.  Imo, this is the true definition of complementing instead of duplicating. 

2. Reduces the overall travel time of BRT.  Not everyone using mass transit is headed to the central business district.  A reduction of DT stops for those not headed to DT means they'll arrive at their destinations earlier. 

[stjr]

Lake and Ock, here are a few questions/comments:

Sorry CS, but Transportation Center is the intermodal passenger station, or in JTA's case a intermodal neighborhood, which definitely needs to be downtown. The traffic control center is a need that was easily rolled into the other neighborhood buildings.

If CSX can run its entire national railroad from a remote facility at McDuff and Beaver, why does JTA/FDOT have to locate its control facility on prime downtown real estate?  CSX's site cost peanuts compared to the value of its HQ's riverfront land downtown.  We taxpayers should follow their example.  Ock, you will have to give us a technical reason why the control center shouldn't be located elsewhere to convince me otherwise.

Lake, regarding the BRT, your map shows it only Downtown.  Why would anyone use it as "rapid transit" for downtown alone?  I don't ever see a bus being "rapid" downtown or over such short distances.  It's the same problem shared by the $ky-high-way.

Further, if BRT eats up a Downtown lane on every block it travels, Downtown traffic will be bottle-necked for sure.  And, cars aside, valuable street real estate will be removed from wider sidewalks for pedestrians, bicycle lanes, street cars, taxi stands, regular buses, landscaping, etc.  If BRT had any real use, it should be akin to commuter rail, not intra-urban core transit.  Unless I am misinterpreting your drawing, BRT looks like it will be the bus version of the $ky-high-way.

Why is JTA so enamored with making the worst possible choices (more roads, BRT and $ky-high-way over street cars, commuter rail, and better existing bus system), poor prioritization (e.g. BRT before Street Cars and existing buses and roads before rail), lousy design (e.g. Jax Transportation Center), and poor fiscal efficiencies (e.g. bloated pensions, wasted dollars on useless and/or poorly executed/planned projects)?   We won't even bring up double talking misleading data such as the bus shelter fiasco.  Does anyone  over there have any common sense?  

[thelakelander]

Given the BRT will exist (I know, but work with me - remember, you lose some)

Btw, I'm not against the concept of dependable bus service (currently paraded around as a new technology called BRT).  If we strip the bells and whistle terminology and remove the lipstick off the pig this is what it really is.  Every major city needs dependable bus service, no matter how much they invest in other modes of mass transit.

I just don't like when we spend our money on things that don't make sense (ex. I'm a rail supporter who is not crazy about Florida's HSR plan because I don't think it makes much sense).

[thelakelander]

Lake, regarding the BRT, your map shows it only Downtown.  Why would anyone use it as "rapid transit" for downtown alone?  I don't ever see a bus being "rapid" downtown or over such short distances.  It's the same problem shared by the $ky-high-way.

No. 1. Not all BRT is "rapid" transit.  That's some of the bull we've been repeatedly feed over the years.  What's proposed in Jax is bus service that will run on existing streets, mixed with regular traffic.  In many cases, buses along these corridors will be subject to the same traffic conditions that individual automobile riders face.

No. 2. This map is just the phase one route for BRT.  Imo, its different from the skyway because it is not a fixed transit system.  Every regular bus go through DT will use this bus corridor.  You can say this plan is something like today's Newnan Street with better landscaping, signage and modern amenities.

Further, if BRT eats up a Downtown lane on every block it travels, Downtown traffic will be bottle-necked for sure.  And, cars aside, valuable street real estate will be removed from wider sidewalks for pedestrians, bicycle lanes, street cars, taxi stands, regular buses, landscaping, etc.  If BRT had any real use, it should be akin to commuter rail, not intra-urban core transit.  Unless I am misinterpreting your drawing, BRT looks like it will be the bus version of the $ky-high-way.

I think they are going to widen Jefferson and remove a parking lane off Broad.  They should have a minimal impact on DT traffic conditions, especially in the area formerly known as LaVilla.  Nevertheless, I do believe that if they are going to rebuild these streets, bike lanes should be added moreso than widening the sidewalks.

Why is JTA so enamored with making the worst possible choices (more roads, BRT and $ky-high-way over street cars, commuter rail, and better existing bus system), poor prioritization (e.g. BRT before Street Cars and existing buses and roads before rail), lousy design (e.g. Jax Transportation Center), and poor fiscal efficiencies (e.g. bloated pensions, wasted dollars on useless and/or poorly executed/planned projects)?   We won't even bring up double talking misleading data such as the bus shelter fiasco.  Does anyone  over there have any common sense?  [/b]

I've always said that Jax is about a decade behind its peers on issues like this.  My guess is that our community leaders and JTA have historically been more comfortable with investing in technology they have a better understanding of.  Nevertheless, I do believe that the more people push for progress, this type of thinking will die out.

[thelakelander]

Lake, regarding the BRT, your map shows it only Downtown.  Why would anyone use it as "rapid transit" for downtown alone?  I don't ever see a bus being "rapid" downtown or over such short distances.  It's the same problem shared by the $ky-high-way.

No. 1. Not all BRT is "rapid" transit.  That's some of the bull we've been repeatedly feed over the years.  What's proposed in Jax is bus service that will run on existing streets, mixed with regular traffic.  In many cases, buses along these corridors will be subject to the same traffic conditions that individual automobile riders face.

Here is an example of being subject to the same traffic conditions as regular traffic.  This is an image of an LA Orange Line BRT bus stuck in traffic.  This can be solved by building dedicated busways but doing that typically costs just as much or more than various forms of rail.

[stjr]

JTA's BRT sounds like the proverbial horse designed by a committee.  Not good for much of anything, trying to be all things at once.  What is the real point of it?  What service does it provide that isn't or can't be provided by regular buses, street cars, and commuter rail?  I thought it was going to require "dedicated" lanes to work.  It sounds more like a regular bus operating an "express" route in which it goes further distances with fewer stops.  If that's the case, they should call it that: "Express Bus Service".  "Rapid" implies something faster than existing options including cars.  The only way I see a bus being faster than a car is with dedicated lanes and prioritization at signaled junctions. 

Mentioning the removal of parking on Broad...hmmm... another part of the "conspiracy" I alluded to on another MJ board about the gradual removal of street parking in Downtown Jax.  This would be just another example of what I expect to continue.  One day, if JTA/COJ have their way, all asphalt DT will be reserved for moving transit and curb side stopping and parking will be a mere memory.  The street level merchant will have to rely solely on pedestrian traffic.  Will it ever come?  Let's put it this way, I feel sorry for the future of DT street merchants!

[thelakelander]

In the case of Broad Street, we've already removed the buildings.  Anyway, as far as BRT goes, I would recommend branding it by a different term (at least to the general public), as well.  I'd also recommend establishing the proposed BRT routes/headways with regular buses now.  After all, it really can't hurt anything and it may attract more ridership than we currently have.  In the future, when funding is available for all the bells and whistles, go ahead and add them.