Jacksonville Transportation Center moves forward

[thelakelander]

Ock, I can't believe you posted a BRT video. Now what would be the story line if the city in that video were Jacksonville? I could only imagine the uproar on the site.

Imo, Birmingham and Jax are kissing cousins.  Both backwards and slow behind the curve to a degree, but Jax is blessed with a superior natural physical location.  

Anyway, the Birmingham video is impressive.  I hope that is what JTA's BRT plan resembles, especially in the North Corridor.  However, as great as Birmingham's presentation was, it won't spur infill development (I don't count the projects that would come regardless of if the project is constructed or not) like rail would.  I also question the validity of the thought that its inexpensive or easy to build two systems (ex. bus line first, then convert it to rail).  If that were the case, most major cities would have been doing it for years.  Nevertheless, not many would be against having reliable bus service with decent headways.  For some reason, we just decide to coin it under the term BRT and claim it like rail.

In the end, as long as BRT is designed to complement rail and improve regular bus service, its fine.  The problem arises when its sold as a replacement under the claim that it gives a community the same benefits at a cheaper cost.  That's simply not true.

[fsujax]

"For some reason, we just decide to coin it under the term BRT and claim it like rail." as sad as it is to say this, it is because of FTA, and recieving federal dollars to do these projects. 

[thelakelander]

It is sad, but to win public support at a local level, it may need to be rebranded and promoted for what it really is.  A reliable standard of bus service (not a replacement or stepping stone to LRT) that should expected on the major streets of any major American city.

[tufsu1]

Re-branding is a good idea...but it still has to be "classified" as BRT to be eligible for FTA New Starts (and similar) funds.

[thelakelander]

Classification on a federal level is one thing.  However, it doesn't have to be presented the public that way.  It does no one any good to claim it can bring things and a panacea that it can't deliver on.  That only breeds public mistrust and disappointment when the thing is finally operational. Re-branding on a public level and how its presented to the local population should not distract from the federal funding process but it would enhance the acceptance of bus improvements locally and save JTA from a few public hearing butt whippings.

[Ocklawaha]

BRT, this transport hybrid could be the answer for many not-so-well-off countries in cutting down carbon dioxide emissions. It is a shining example of ingenuity and sincerity bearing fruit in our fight for global survival...
(THIS IS TYPICAL OF THE CRAP I'VE LIFTED FROM A BRT WEBSITE, FEELING FUZZY YET?).

This is what JTA planned before we jumped in this fight.


This is what JTA should get.


This is what JTA will probably get.

Of course Lake, these have been my points for years. Neither the BRT or the People Mover is going to spur new development.

BRT done right is a great thing for those roads that don't quite make the cut for streetcar or other light rail. University and Edgewood come to mind just as a for instance, Blanding, San Jose etc. The benefit of the colors and impressed lane design is a sets a sure, distinct course through the city and removes the guess work. Travel by bus one time on this type of BRT and you'll know where your going before you board a second time. The diamond lanes can be used to maximum benefit of the public by scheduling times of the day when they become transit lanes. Top the whole thing off with twin trolley wires and we have a Kyoto proof connector for rail and skyway. I don't like BRT simply because it has been sold with misrepresentation, sensationalism, and down right deceit, aka: LIES, the BRT think tanks started this intermodal war when, due in no small part, to having a pro oil president, they claimed "Just like rail only cheaper..." NOT! Not even close. 7% of all TOD is generated by BRT, guess what generates the rest? RAIL. I don't believe for a moment that Birmingham style lanes down Lem Turner will trump rail. Even those new Silver Eagle 15's and 20's, or MCI's J4500 or e4500 models are still short of the mark. The worlds are so different that they should NEVER HAVE BEEN COMPAIRED in the first place. But once the rail community got mobilized, BRT has fallen everywhere. The World Models that only a year ago, JTA was touting as the best thing since sex are both being replaced by rail metros. Bogota and Curitiba, oh, and Santiago De Chili has already replaced their system with rail. Sure these cities will continue to have BRT, we all should, but the BRT will never again challenge rail nose to nose.

Remember the JTA consultants sold us the Skyway the Skyway, even publishing the findings of a study that showed that diesel buses violate the human ear noise tolerance and thus should be banished from downtown. Now the same bunch is telling us "Just like rail only cheaper..." I ain't drinking this swill.

OCKLAWAHA

[Murjax]

This plan looks way too unrealistic. Amtrak's not going to use it at least until they have trains running on the FEC. The most striking thing I find is that they're putting most of the money of this into the Skyway portion of this transit center. Nobody uses it now, what makes anybody think they're gonna use it just because Amtrak and Greyhound are put there? This transit center should be focused on commuter rail operations. The Skyway should seriously be dismantled unless they can extend it to the beaches, speed up the operations, and make it more commuter rail like (probably not possible).

[Ocklawaha]

This plan looks way too unrealistic. Amtrak's not going to use it at least until they have trains running on the FEC. The most striking thing I find is that they're putting most of the money of this into the Skyway portion of this transit center. Nobody uses it now, what makes anybody think they're gonna use it just because Amtrak and Greyhound are put there? This transit center should be focused on commuter rail operations. The Skyway should seriously be dismantled unless they can extend it to the beaches, speed up the operations, and make it more commuter rail like (probably not possible).

The Skyway has a place, but not at the Beach. This is a system designed to run within I-95 on the west, 8Th Street on the north, the river to the east, and Atlantic on the south. This is all from the original and subsequent studies. People got the false idea while being swept up in the Skyway mania of the 1980's and 90's, that any day these little trains would be coming up their street, an idea that wasn't EVER going to happen, wasn't planned to happen, and won't ever happen. The problem is, it is not integrated into a regional vision of transit. It was planned to connect the fringe of the urban area at large parking garages and intermodal stations. Buses downtown were to be a thing of the past, JTA even came up with medical evidence that diesel buses are WAY too noisy, violating the safe human limits, and thus would be banned in the CBD.

No part of the bus/Skyway plan was ever acted on after two great intermodal stations were built. The city torpedoed the whole project by duplicating the peripheral parking in the city center, usually on lot sites that had been tax paying private holdings. Then also according to the studies, not a single leg of the system was ever even finished beyond Union Station (POCC). I'm telling you folks, these guys wouldn't pass "General Urban Transit 101" if I was teaching it.

When we think of really good transit systems world wide, or of building one at home, ALWAYS think in terms of a matrix. Transit should look like a multicolored Indian blanket, with choices of route after route tightly connected and interwoven, bus, rail, auto, BRT, LRT, streetcar, water, hell I'll even toss in my Zeppelin concept, let's fly THAT to the Beaches.

OCKLAWAHA

[JaxNative68]

I don't understand why a train type transit system couldn't be incorporated into the JTB widening project to connect into the I-95 corridor and into the downtown area.

[Ocklawaha]

I don't understand why a train type transit system couldn't be incorporated into the JTB widening project to connect into the I-95 corridor and into the downtown area.

It certainly could, there are also a number of high voltage transmission line rights of way, such as alongside Kernan, 9-A on the northside, Westlake, Cecil, etc. A couple of interesting locations just south of JTB from roughly Philips east to the Kernan route. The Kernan route goes both to a river crossing and to the Beaches midway between Atlantic and Beach. The problem is to build it where there is light density is to invite disaster, and to build where the population is dense is too costly.

OCKLAWAHA

[Murjax]

This plan looks way too unrealistic. Amtrak's not going to use it at least until they have trains running on the FEC. The most striking thing I find is that they're putting most of the money of this into the Skyway portion of this transit center. Nobody uses it now, what makes anybody think they're gonna use it just because Amtrak and Greyhound are put there? This transit center should be focused on commuter rail operations. The Skyway should seriously be dismantled unless they can extend it to the beaches, speed up the operations, and make it more commuter rail like (probably not possible).

The Skyway has a place, but not at the Beach. This is a system designed to run within I-95 on the west, 8Th Street on the north, the river to the east, and Atlantic on the south. This is all from the original and subsequent studies. People got the false idea while being swept up in the Skyway mania of the 1980's and 90's, that any day these little trains would be coming up their street, an idea that wasn't EVER going to happen, wasn't planned to happen, and won't ever happen. The problem is, it is not integrated into a regional vision of transit. It was planned to connect the fringe of the urban area at large parking garages and intermodal stations. Buses downtown were to be a thing of the past, JTA even came up with medical evidence that diesel buses are WAY too noisy, violating the safe human limits, and thus would be banned in the CBD.

No part of the bus/Skyway plan was ever acted on after two great intermodal stations were built. The city torpedoed the whole project by duplicating the peripheral parking in the city center, usually on lot sites that had been tax paying private holdings. Then also according to the studies, not a single leg of the system was ever even finished beyond Union Station (POCC). I'm telling you folks, these guys wouldn't pass "General Urban Transit 101" if I was teaching it.

When we think of really good transit systems world wide, or of building one at home, ALWAYS think in terms of a matrix. Transit should look like a multicolored Indian blanket, with choices of route after route tightly connected and interwoven, bus, rail, auto, BRT, LRT, streetcar, water, hell I'll even toss in my Zeppelin concept, let's fly THAT to the Beaches.

OCKLAWAHA

What's this Zeppelin concept you speak of? I was kind of kidding when I said extend the skyway to the Beaches, but they seriously need something. My point with the Skyway is it exactly what you said. It was designed to connect parking garages. The skyway should be a very small part of this transit center. This plan looks like the skyway is the main part of it while the Amtrak and maybe future commuter rail platforms are treated like a "side dish". This gives me the feel that a vital part of this "matrix" is being ignored. That's just my opinion though.

[Ocklawaha]

Really need to do a feature article on this y'all. Some may not know it but Zeppelin's made by Zeppelin Corporation are back and coming on with a vengeance.
http://www.youtube.com/v/IG2QNh6jCo8&hl=en_US&fs=1&color1=0x402061&color2=0x9461ca&border=1"></param><param%20name=
USS AKRON ZRS-4

Here is some vintage footage of a Zeppelin NOT CRASHING, struting it's versitality. 

http://www.youtube.com/v/g3N1dlQLAZE&hl=en_US&fs=1&color1=0x402061&color2=0x9461ca&border=1"></param><param%20name=
Lockheed Martin P-791

Told y'all this was going to come along, wait until Boeing's takes flight, it will dwarf everything in the air today, by the way the dumb ass that uploaded this to YouTube, wouldn't know a Zeppelin if it sat in his face and danced.

http://www.youtube.com/v/cKk_4A6wdDU&hl=en_US&fs=1&color1=0x402061&color2=0x9461ca&border=1
Zeppelin NT in San Francisco.

30 years ago I was pleading, BEGGING our city to reconsider the Skyway and build the FIRST VINTAGE STREETCAR LINE in America... They thought I was crazy and asked me to "get out of town..." Now I'm starting to howl, THIS IS NEXT, Port Authority, Cecil Field, Airship Ventures plans to bring the Zeppelin to Florida next, I know, you think I'm crazy and some already wish I'd shut up! NOT! One more time God has smiled on us and given us an opportunity to snatch this beast before Mickey does. These are just samples of the craft to come. Note that short landing field, about a city block is all they use. Think priority shipments, Port Authority, tourism, Aviation Authority, Coastal shuttle, Transportation Authority... Just THINK.

This isn't exactly my plan but has some elements of it, and hopefully gets people thinking ABOVE the box.

OCKLAWAHA

[Murjax]

This could work, but I doubt it would do any good for people if it operated out of Cecil as the CSX line is right there. You would need to build some kind of "port" in Jax Beach probably and it would need Zeppelins coming in and out pretty frequently. What about fuel? Are Zeppelins fuel efficient?

[Ocklawaha]

Sorry if I've been slow to answer, been working on all kinds of projects today. A classic Zeppelin with a much heavier airframe could carry 70 tons up to 800 miles, or 60 tons 8,600 miles, at a cost of 1 cent per Ton Mile. This in excess of the crew, fuel and other sundry weights. The new ones are virtual VTOL aircraft, meaning a spot like Imeson Industrial Park could be put into service as a Zeppelin Port, between JIA and JPA. The smallish size of these new ships will soon pass, look for the economical giants to return, with much bigger payloads. The new Zeppelin frame is based on a triangle with three ridged supports running horizontally, more then twice as light as all previous models.

Hope someone is listening.

OCKLAWAHA

[Murjax]

Sorry if I've been slow to answer, been working on all kinds of projects today. A classic Zeppelin with a much heavier airframe could carry 70 tons up to 800 miles, or 60 tons 8,600 miles, at a cost of 1 cent per Ton Mile. This in excess of the crew, fuel and other sundry weights. The new ones are virtual VTOL aircraft, meaning a spot like Imeson Industrial Park could be put into service as a Zeppelin Port, between JIA and JPA. The smallish size of these new ships will soon pass, look for the economical giants to return, with much bigger payloads. The new Zeppelin frame is based on a triangle with three ridged supports running horizontally, more then twice as light as all previous models.

Hope someone is listening.

OCKLAWAHA

I'm listening. I can definitely see this having its place in transport. If one could make a small version of this for personal use they can become as common as the car. One question though. Would it be able to stop at a bunch of small ports along a certain route like rapid transit or a bus? Aircraft are usually designed to travel long distances nonstop. This would be a new situation.