Jacksonville Transportation Center moves forward

[buckethead]

Is this the same JTA that can't pay for bus shelters without getting a sign ordinance exemption?

Misleading....JTA has no moeny to build the center....that's why they've applied for simulus funds...the remainder would be funded by FDOT

Is this the only completed plan that could be available in time to present for a Stimulus grant?

[thelakelander]

So again we've missed the opportunity to have an architectural landmark for the city where other cities are hitting the mark, as seen in fsujax's Anaheim example.  Again, look at Seattle's main library compared to ours, and numerous county courthouses compared to the one currently going up.

Why must we stay 15 years behind every other major city...

because everyone here complains if the project costs too much!

Good design doesn't have to cost more money.  In fact in many cases, it can be cheaper than what's currently on the table.  In any event, at $180 million, this is not a cheap project.

Also, I like the retail and plaza on Johnson street. Lavilla's redevelopment has been so horribly bungled, that I'm glad when at least a couple block segments are developed with a little forethought. I think the biggest issue is just making sure that whatever is built on the opposite side of Johnson street will also have active uses, and not just be another blank wall or parking garage level.

Anyway, just trying to keep it positive here.

I understand the positivity.  I'm still torn.  Its good that someone is attempting to move a transit related project forward.  Its better than what is there today, but it can be a negative in the long run because of the sprawling design (when all phases are considered) around a dying outdated convention center.

Nevertheless, from a retail design standpoint, retail on Johnson Street is risky.  Retailers strive off pedestrian traffic and pass by visibility.  Plus, its better to fill the surroundings of an urban plaza with complementing uses that breathe life and energy into it around the clock.  Not having control on what happens to the south and east could easily create a public space with dead zones and little foot traffic (ex. check out our pocket parks).

Considering the site location, all the retail would be better suited for either Forsyth or Bay Streets and the plaza should be surrounded by more building density and street level use to generate foot traffic.  Along those streets, they would also be visible to every day drivers who are not using transit services (ex. visibility to more potential customers).  Also, this way you won't leave the success or failure of the investment up to the unknown future of the vacant city owned lot across the street.  Knowing the city's pace to doing things, horribly placed retail could sit empty for years (ex. library parking garage) and the public space could end up being no more vibrant than the Main Street pocket park.

[jason_contentdg]

Exactly Lake, good design does not have to cost any more than bad design.

[Jason]

IMO, without an imediate connection to the burbs via commuter rail, the Phase 1 JTC is pretty much useless.

[thelakelander]

http://www.youtube.com/v/L0F-5c7Me3I&hl=en_US&fs=1&color1=0x402061&color2=0x9461ca&border=1
With BRT done right, check out those lanes, and Central Station, we're about to get our designing butts kicked.OCKLAWAHA

That's a pretty impressive design (taking people where they want to go) and video.  What happened with their streetcar proposal?  Did that die when the mayor got arrested and sent to jail?  How much will it cost?

[Ocklawaha]

My, just toss in a bucket of piss water and the dinosaurs start to stir. Why would you accept a center like this Joe, when you KNOW the city, even under our boy prince, is looking for a new convention center location. Yes that has stalled, but with a push from the right agency's, which includes JTA, we could fast track both projects. A delay of only a year for relocation of the SAME building elements into a more compact center would be well worth the wait. There is nothing that says a passionate plea to city council would be out of line.

Anyone know what we're planning for the new-UGLY Lee Street viaduct? To do the rail side it will have to come down, though I can't say I'll miss it. Hopefully a new span tall enough to clear ALL of the tracks on top of the fill base, will be constructed. While we're at it, one would hope we could return some of the classic elements that graced the original viaduct. Those beautiful Victorian style lights and balusters like the new Hogans Creek bridge on Bay. Wonder if JHS knows where the beautiful bronze plaque went? It would be nice to put it back on the bridge or make a copy of it and put it up.

As for the bus shelters, I completely agree, support and am cheering for JTA. This would be the smartest move they have made in the last 30 years that I have yo Yoyo'd back and forth to Medellin, Brasilia, Panama City and Paramaribo. Go for it JTA, SELL - SELL - SELL this and these ideas.

OCKLAWAHA

[avonjax]

"I have heard the designers did not want to detract from the historical Jacksonville Terminal by building something grander or larger."

So many people are concerned with detracting from historical buildings and building them to compliment the exisiting buildings we have, but where was the concern about historical stuctures while the city was mass destroying the great ones we used to have 20, 30 or 40 years ago, and many lesser ones in between.

It's a smelly excuse to continue building conservative, drab public buildings. After spending alot of time in Tampa, St Pete and Orlando in the last couple of months, it's apparent Jacksonville seems to relish it's backward views and pride in remaining dull, and "not like Central and South Florida." As a lifelong Jacksonville resident, I would welcome anything to "shake up the place."  

[Joe]

Why would you accept a center like this Joe, when you KNOW the city, even under our boy prince, is looking for a new convention center location.

Because that's years and years away. It won't be fast-tracked, and as you should well know, the most important aspect of any publicly funded project is putting the gears in motion, not waiting around until the next funding cycle.

Plus, while the metrojax plan is better, the differences aren't big enough to justify a re-do (even assuming the political will were there). The most important thing is getting that nasty greyhound station out of the CBD, as well as setting the stage for commuter rail and garage connectivity with the skyway.

The idea of relocating the bus stations to maximize the multi-modal potential of the transit center is nice ... but please, a theoretical commuter rail-bus or amtrak-greyhound connection is about one of the least relevant issues facing Jacksonville transit.

If someone has the political power to fund a new convention center before 2011, that's really freaking fantastic. I encourage them to do it, and ask JTA to re-conform its plan to the metrojacksonville model now that the convention center problem has been solved. But until that happens, I'm operating under the assumption that the convention center won't be shut down before the transit center gets constructed. Therefore the JTA plan - though not perfect - adequately addresses the real-world constraints of the site, and is a functional plan that should begin construction.

[TheProfessor]

One good thing I see is that the skyway will not be extended to riverside.  The elevated platforms are an eyesore.  I think whomever designed this needs their credentials checked.  It's boring.  Let's just hope it becomes functional...

[Ocklawaha]

One good thing I see is that the skyway will not be extended to riverside.  The elevated platforms are an eyesore.  I think whomever designed this needs their credentials checked.  It's boring.  Let's just hope it becomes functional...

Professor, until the Skyway reaches the edge of residential Riverside, Springfield, Fairfield and San Marco, it can NEVER be fully functional. We're going to do much more on this down the road.

Why would you accept a center like this Joe, when you KNOW the city, even under our boy prince, is looking for a new convention center location.

Plus, while the metrojax plan is better, the differences aren't big enough to justify a re-do (even assuming the political will were there). The most important thing is getting that nasty greyhound station out of the CBD, as well as setting the stage for commuter rail and garage connectivity with the skyway.

The idea of relocating the bus stations to maximize the multi-modal potential of the transit center is nice ... but please, a theoretical commuter rail-bus or amtrak-greyhound connection is about one of the least relevant issues facing Jacksonville transit.

Therefore the JTA plan - though not perfect - adequately addresses the real-world constraints of the site, and is a functional plan that should begin construction.

AH HA moment here boys and girls, Me thinkith Joe hath smitten the nail with his head. Highlighted for your viewing pleasure, Joe says a world of Jax-Think. Again, 20? no, more like 50 years behind the times. Richard, Tricky-Dicky, Nixon, anyone?  Joe there is absolutely NOTHING nasty about Greyhounds new E4500, J4500 and D-Series coaches, see for yourself:

If the idea in Jacksonville is to get transit users as far away from the CBD then the whole idea will collapse. As Lakelander pointed out, location is vital to these design elements, walls, fences, gates, stairs, ladders, and broken esclator's need not apply.

OCKLAWAHA

[tufsu1]

Exactly Lake, good design does not have to cost any more than bad design.

It doesn't have to, but when we're talking about iconic architecture (like Anaheim) it usually does

[thelakelander]

Exactly Lake, good design does not have to cost any more than bad design.

It doesn't have to, but when we're talking about iconic architecture (like Anaheim) it usually does

In our case, we're already up there.  So in essence, like the courthouse, we're spending iconic level money for generic design.  I think that's what probably gets under the skin of most design oriented people.  It doesn't bother me so much, which is probably more of a result of not getting my expectations up too high on many of the proposed projects.

[fsujax]

Ock, I can't believe you posted a BRT video. Now what would be the story line if the city in that video were Jacksonville? I could only imagine the uproar on the site.

[Joe]

Ock - putting a greyhound station on the fringe of downtown is good policy. Jax's current greyhound location in the heart of the CBD office core is TERRIBLE placement. It was hardly anti-urban thinking for Boston to build their new greyhound station on the extreme Southern fringe of their downtown, and it's not inappropriate for Jax to do likewise. I don't think that aspect of the plan has ever been in serious dispute.

I'm kind of offended that you think it's valid to dismiss my comments as "Jax-think" which I think devolves the conversation into more of a personal attack. Especially since there's plenty of valid urban theory to support the notion of moving an intercity bus station out of the smack-dab center of your office core.

[Ocklawaha]

Joe, no insult intended and I'm sorry if you took it that way. I get just as insulted when folks dismiss transportation modes as nasty, it just isn't true. Jax-Think, usually applies to those who have spent a lifetime here and this is generally what they know of metro living. Hell I've spent a lifetime here one summer!

FSUJAX, the weather channel forcast for HELL today? Very cold, freezing rain falling. Just note the words DONE RIGHT. Diamond and colored lanes + GPS + Signal priority + que jumpers. No need for a billion dollar bus freeway.



OCKLAWAHA