Metro Jacksonville

Just wanted to make sure everyone is aware of this, since there wasn't a thread about it.

SPAR will be a hosting a community-wide meeting at thier building on Main Street this Thursday evening.

I'm assuming that it will be open floor most of the time, as no agenda has been set.

Hope everyone can make it.


This was the announcment:

Neighbors have voiced concerns and favor a special meeting to give them time to put issues on the table and to help with solutions to those issues. There will be a "Town Meeting" here at the SPAR building Thursday at 7:00 P.M. This special meeting was not on schedules previously sent out, so be sure to tell your friends and neighbors and ask them to come with you. There is a lot of excitement from people who have heard about our community and want to live here, and many people are voicing their willingness to be involved and do what they can for Springfield. Come on out and lets make some plans for how we can have a crime free, fun filled, peaceful, beautiful community!

Got this email this morning...I wasn't aware that this is about the rooming house issue

QuoteRemember the Community Meeting tonight at 7:00 P.M. at SPAR (1321 N. Main St.). The issue is a concern over the growing number of rooming houses in the Historic District. Please come and invite friends and neighbors.

SPAR Council

SparOffice@sparcouncil.org

Well I certainly hope other topics are discusses too....that's for sure.

God... me too. 

This could be rather amusing.

Hell, I'm doing happy hour prior to the meeting.

I have been following all this Springfield talk and never have said anything, but I may go tonight to have my say. It should be fun!

Oh yeah,

There will be an agenda which will be given out tonight.
Here is a quick run down:
A review of what is being done about illegal rooming houses currently
Open discussion from community of issues in their area?quadrant These will be documented
A consensus on which are major issues to address- priority
Next action steps.

Sounds good.

Seems that the meeting was nothing more than spar showing their vindictive side and their campaign efforts against rooming houses...including a petition (aka, sign in sheet) that everyone was asked to 'sign in' It would seem that they did little more than to verify exactly what several of the other posters here have claimed.

When we walked in, Louise was telling everyone to sign in. When they passed the "sign in" sheet around the room to get the people who didn't sign when they walked in, we found out it was an actual petition. Some people scratched their names out and others just didn't sign it. That was very sneaky!! During the meeting, I could not believe what I was hearing when Gerry Troy tried to help some people who have a home that they host proton beam patients during their recovery. He tried to say that they were doing a good thing and not what the neighborhood was against because they were doing a good thing for good people. That really pissed alot of us off and actually turned my ample stomach. I actually felt slimy for living in this neighborhood with someone who would say something like that in public. To me, it sounded like, because they are recovering from cancer they are good people. But, because Joe and Gloria's guys are recovering from drugs and alcohol, they are bad people. I, and most of the people I know and call friends, don't feel that way. I was proud of my friend Kim for speaking to this point and calling him out.. Nice job, Kim!!! Shortly thereafter Gerry backtracked on what he said, perhaps realizing the damage he'd just done to their cause... Perhaps if we just give cancer to Joe and Gloria's guys the uppity side of the neighborhood would feel differently about having them here... The meeting was pathetic and really showed me an uglier side of my neighborhood that I did not realize was really there..

Excellent summary Soxfan , that is what I heard too .

Actually, my favorite part of the meeting was afterward.  We were talking with people when Joe said "we have to go."  I said goodbye and we walked outside.  Once on the sidewalk, Joe said "Eva Ayers came over and told me that Claude and Louise said I had to leave.  They said that I'm not welcome there and had to go."

Of course, no damage was done and I appreciated the fact that they waited until the meeting was over.

It was a very disturbing meeting.  Encouraging neighbors to spy on neighbors is rather appalling, perhaps a video of neighbors making videos of each other could make America's Funniest Home Videos.  Whaddya think?

That's the kind of vindictiveness and appalling behavior/attitude that turned me away from renewing my membership. I've known this about them for a long, long time and tried to tell others about it...but sometimes people have to find out for themselves, and they did last night. Spar showed their true colors, and it's sickening, at best!

Keep talking like that Matt, and I will sign an affidavit about what sorts of awful things are happening at your house.  :o :o :o

that's it Matt, I'm calling code enforcement!

I didn't particularly care for that differentiation either. I do think treatment for a sickness is treatment for a sickness. That being said, tho, I am also keenly aware that the people being treated for cancer do have significant behavorial differences than people being treated for dependencies. Some would say that cancer is more of an illness b/c the affliction isn't a result of behavorial choices? Don't know if Proton treats for lung or for liver cancer, but might clinical evidence show that some of those types of cancers can be caused by behavioral choices like smoking or alcohol consumption? I'm not a doctor or scientist, so I don't know.

I will say that I haven't personally experienced or heard any stories of Proton Therapy patients knocking on neighbors door, in a high state, at all hours, looking for a place to stay after they have been turned away from their recovery home for not following the rules or getting "home" on time. I also haven't heard stories of persons being clearly, and significantly, under the influence of alcohol or narcotics, knocking on neighbors' doors at all hours looking for friends who are undergoing Proton Therapy treatment. Nor have I heard stories of neighbors being visited at all hours by Proton Therapy "dealers" looking increase sales of any illegal or controlled product, or pairs or groups of Proton Therapy patients having verbal outbursts amongst each other in front yards or out in the streets.

Yes, people are all people, but certain behaviors, that also negatively affect the civil liberties of those around them, make some people less desirable to have around. And when some of those negative behaviors are already over-prevalent (%) in a community as a result of policy and selective enforcement of such, I can understand why some neighbors (whose doors may have been knocked on at all hours) don't desire more residents who are under treatment for dependency illnesses.

I thought last night's discussion was relatively open, considering there were approx 60 people there, and a question format had to be used to keep it moving timewise. It just seems to me that there is more than one side that needs to see the other side's viewpoint.

And, Matt, any of those adults related to you? If not, how long will they be staying? ... ;-)

I'd say that the other sides position was pretty clearly stated last night. One cannot relate those dealing with cancer to those dealing with alcohol and/or drug recovery...however, those people are trying to recover. I'm also aware that no matter what, there's bad apples in every group, but that shouldn't make them all out to be bad ones.

It's appalling that it should even be suggested that neighbors join in on a barrage of calls to code enforcement simply because a place is a recovery facility. If these places are such a problem, where's the statistics to show how many times JSO has been involved, or how many of the residents were arrested? Granted, I don't want any more of these facilities in our neighborhood, but am not going to harass those that are already here and have not caused problems.

I'm not harassing anyone either, b/c people are people. I'm sympathetic to those who have made choices that result in dependencies, but per discussion last eve, which was confirmed as accurate by a City representative, 8 rooming houses are grandfathered in. The rest are attempting to find holes in the "gray area," and raising a ruckus about the civil rights of their clients, while discounting the civil rights of others who also live in this community.

And this may be a very unpopular sentiment, but it seems the owners who are trying to convert these homes to recovery uses DO differentiate b/w Proton Therapy patients or military/college roommates versus their clients recovering from dependency. If they truly didn't perceive a difference, they would be opening these rooming houses right next door to their own homes instead of in others' neighborhoods.

(Sorry it this re-starts bickering, character assassinations, postings of old postings, etc... I'm outta here ;-)

Springfielder, it wasnt suggested that legal facilities be targeted at all. In fact, everyone wanted to know which ones were legal, so they could be left alone.

I know of 4 or 5 of them.

What I would like to see is some sort of arrangment reached, where a decent working relationship is set up so that there is some form of communication between SPAR and the legal houses. It doesnt serve the legal houses well, to have a bunch of illegal ones running. Perhaps if SPAR would stop being so bullish on the issue, some of the legal operators would help identify illegal ones when they pop up. I suspect that they have a much better line on the issue.

The impact of last night's meeting on the neighborhood:

Man walks down street "Hi, how are you doing?"

Stranger answers "WHY DO YOU WANT TO KNOW, LEAVE ME ALONE, NONE OF YOUR FREAKIN BUSINESS"

Why would anyone talk to another when the chance of being recorded/affidavit/video-tapped is a true threat.  

This is crap and totally unacceptable for this neighborhood.

Dan, that is an excellent idea and one that I would be happy to get involved with.

But, I want cake. ;D

Gloria, the only way it would work, is if some level of trust is reached. I understand trust is a two way street, but for it to work, you guys would have to throw the brakes on the 'sober houses'.

 Don't worry Zoo, I won't try to change your mind...it really isn't worth the effort.  I will ask a question or two though...

Is there is list of supposed illegal rooming houses or isn't there?  In other words, if there isn’t, how did they determine a number?

Were the codes involved with this issue actually adequately explained during the meeting or not?  In particular, the definitions of the various types of houses…rooming, boarding, group care home, low density to high density, what is really permissible and what it not?

It was mentioned that there are a couple of people in the community who are renting rooms out in their houses to the patients from the Proton Institute.  Though these places would be illegal rooming houses per the information given out during the meeting last night, are they OK because of whom they rent too?

Did the leaders of SPAR Council come across like they knew the codes and did they successfully articulate that knowledge back to the community?

Just from the meeting last night, how important is the perception that “rooming houses”  reduce housing values to the residents of Springfield?  And is there any proof that claim is true?

Dan, I said I'd be willing to sit down and discuss this issue.  It is a start, is it not?

"character assassinations"...you're kidding me..."bickering"...and here I thought I was just responding to a post. If you actually read my post, I said I didn't want more of the facilities...but I will not partake in the request to bombard code enforcement with complaints, aka, IMO...harassment. If there's illegal places, then why not go about it in a civil and legal manner. If there's truly a list of illegal places, then submit it to the city and let them do their jobs and not try and rile the neighborhood into an attack mode.

ok, so, what is the difference between unrelated proton patients and unrelated recovering addicts? are we implying that there are no cancer patients that are also recovering from a substance? would it be alright if the addicts also had cancer but were NOT being treated at the proton facility?

Quote from: cindi on November 06, 2009, 09:34:53 AM
ok, so, what is the difference between unrelated proton patients and unrelated recovering addicts? are we implying that there are no cancer patients that are also recovering from a substance? would it be alright if the addicts also had cancer but were NOT being treated at the proton facility?

The only difference is perception, of course.  In fact, they probably have a lot in common and would be surprised that other people are making such a great distinction.

I don't support selective enforcement for or against single-family homes being used in ways they shouldn't be. Any home operating outside of the law should do what it takes to comply with the areas of the law that are clear -- hasps, food storage, having a license, paying taxes, etc.

If I were the PTI, I'd be sure I knew the b/w areas of the law, and that they were only placing people in facilities that have all of the i's dotted and t's crossed.

I do not support selective enforcement in any direction.

And, Springfielder, my attempt at humor re: the type of posting that often occurs in Springfield-related threads was not directed at any poster. Guess I'm guilty of floating a lead balloon.

i am not sure but i thought there were no more of these "facilities" allowed  (unless they are at 3rd and main), unless, of course they are using the loophole.

Quote from: Matt McVay on November 06, 2009, 07:39:28 AM
I was appalled.  Why don't they just engage the owners in an attempt to determine the legitimacy or illegitimacy of these houses?  Instead they have started a witch hunt.

Matt, I'm glad you finally noticed. Better late than never. Now see if we can't talk some sense into FSU and Dan B.

Bite me. I didn't see you, or your mentors happy asses there.

Dan B was awesome last night.  He said that he didn't like the low density houses, BUT he was truly upset with the manner in which the SPAR board was going about "collecting" information ie.  

Apparently, it is necessary for SPAR to get information which would give the city "probable cause" to get a warrant to inspect these properties.  SPAR board recommends that neighbors gather affidavits, get video tapes and recordings, and do some investigation.  Then they suggest a "clearinghouse" of this information to give to the city.

Quote from: Dan B on November 06, 2009, 10:04:52 AM
Bite me. I didn't see you, or your mentors happy asses there.

I'm in Concord, NH until Monday. Loan me your private jet next time and I'll come.

Quote from: Dan B on November 06, 2009, 10:04:52 AM
Bite me. I didn't see you, or your mentors happy asses there.

Alright, I hear via PM that you actually came to your senses at the meeting and realized what was up.

Like I said to Matt, better late than never. So my job with you is now done, as your eyes are apparently opened. So I will leave you alone moving forward. It is kind of shocking to realize all this stuff on the forum actually has a firm basis in reality, isn't it? Those who have lived on the wrong end of it know what I'm talking about too. I hear Louise's crew did a better job of showing their own ugly side than any of us could have done, and while it's a shame that is going on, I'm glad you got to see it firsthand.

Dan said that he found this tactic alarming.  

I thought the fact that he spoke out was courageous, given the atmosphere of the place.

(I still think Dan is kind of a butt sometimes, but last night I was glad he was there and gave him a hug afterward).

I didn't go to the meeting, but am kind of shocked about the petition/sign-in sheet. Is that legal?

Quote from: zooAnd, Springfielder, my attempt at humor re: the type of posting that often occurs in Springfield-related threads was not directed at any poster. Guess I'm guilty of floating a lead balloon.

Sorry, I didn't catch it....all is good  ;)

Quote from: Matt McVay on November 06, 2009, 10:10:53 AM

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 06, 2009, 10:01:59 AM

Quote from: Matt McVay on November 06, 2009, 07:39:28 AM
I was appalled.  Why don't they just engage the owners in an attempt to determine the legitimacy or illegitimacy of these houses?  Instead they have started a witch hunt.

Matt, I'm glad you finally noticed. Better late than never. Now see if we can't talk some sense into FSU and Dan B.

Don't think I'm in your camp just because I would like to see some things flushed out.  Your attacks were not acceptable either.

Thanks, but I don't have a 'camp'. And my 'attacks' were nothing more than accurate statements.

You've now seen Louise's BS tactics yourself firsthand, and their attempt at petition fraud has been documented by several other posters on this forum. So, really, give it a rest. I don't think you could borrow a leg to stand on at this point, if you're still going to argue that everything I've said about SPAR and Louise is untrue.

Chris, for some reason you think we are babes in the wood or something. We arent. I was a sitting board member for almost three years, and have been fairly involved since I moved to the community in 2003. Matt has been involved since he moved in several years ago.

All of these people you are casting aspersions at, or sucking up to as the case may be, I have known and have worked/dealt with many a time, including Joe, Gloria, Claude, and Louise.

So please, save the accolades. I personally have no need for them. I have always, and will always call them as I see them.

Quote from: Dan B on November 06, 2009, 10:21:53 AM
Chris, for some reason you think we are babes in the wood or something. We arent. I was a sitting board member for almost three years, and have been fairly involved since I moved to the community in 2003. Matt has been involved since he moved in several years ago.

All of these people you are casting aspersions at, or sucking up to as the case may be, I have known and have worked/dealt with many a time, including Joe, Gloria, Claude, and Louise.

So please, save the accolades. I personally have no need for them. I have always, and will always call them as I see them.

That's the problem. You weren't calling them as you saw them, until last night's meeting.

Prior to that, you were on this forum defending certain people based solely on reputation, and personally attacking anyone who disagreed with your viewpoint. Nobody said you're a "babe in the woods", but your responses indicated only two real possibilities; 1: That you really didn't know what was actually going on, or 2: That you knew but approved and defended it.

Your words today indicate it was #1. So again, glad your eyes are now open. But you personally attacked me, J & G, Stephen, and anyone else who said SPAR was doing the stuff they have in fact actually been doing. I do appreciate that you ultimately came around, though. I'm not even sure what we're arguing about at this point?

All I can say is, I am truly disappointed.  It seems like SPAR had one last chance to prove the naysayers wrong, and all they did was remove the final shred of doubt for those of us on the fence.  I am reading the comments of so many neighbors whose opinions I have come to respect - they can't all be partaking in mass hysteria.

Boundaries are good.  

Matt, let's use this as a metaphor for establishing reason into the eventual discussion we will have on the "rooming house" issue.

We could call it "Good Fence Initiative"

As in the poem -- good fences make good neighbors.

The interesting thing last night was when Chris Farley turned to the crowd and ask if anyone wanted a rooming/boarding house or whatever next door to them.....guess how many people raised thier hands??? 0..... I was wondering where all the outspoken supporters of the facilities were. They didn't say too much. This was my first Springfield meeting and it was not what I was expecting....where were the fireworks??? :-)

Mending Wall    
by Robert Frost  


Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That sends the frozen-ground-swell under it,
And spills the upper boulders in the sun;
And makes gaps even two can pass abreast.
The work of hunters is another thing:
I have come after them and made repair
Where they have left not one stone on a stone,
But they would have the rabbit out of hiding,
To please the yelping dogs.  The gaps I mean,
No one has seen them made or heard them made,
But at spring mending-time we find them there.
I let my neighbor know beyond the hill;
And on a day we meet to walk the line
And set the wall between us once again.
We keep the wall between us as we go.
To each the boulders that have fallen to each.
And some are loaves and some so nearly balls
We have to use a spell to make them balance:
'Stay where you are until our backs are turned!'
We wear our fingers rough with handling them.
Oh, just another kind of outdoor game,
One on a side.  It comes to little more:
There where it is we do not need the wall:
He is all pine and I am apple orchard.
My apple trees will never get across
And eat the cones under his pines, I tell him.
He only says, 'Good fences make good neighbors.'
Spring is the mischief in me, and I wonder
If I could put a notion in his head:
'Why do they make good neighbors?  Isn't it
Where there are cows?  But here there are no cows.
Before I built a wall I'd ask to know
What I was walling in or walling out,
And to whom I was like to give offense.
Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That wants it down.'  I could say 'Elves' to him,
But it's not elves exactly, and I'd rather
He said it for himself.  I see him there
Bringing a stone grasped firmly by the top
In each hand, like an old-stone savage armed.
He moves in darkness as it seems to me,
Not of woods only and the shade of trees.
He will not go behind his father's saying,
And he likes having thought of it so well
He says again, 'Good fences make good neighbors.'

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 06, 2009, 10:28:43 AM

Quote from: Dan B on November 06, 2009, 10:21:53 AM
Chris, for some reason you think we are babes in the wood or something. We arent. I was a sitting board member for almost three years, and have been fairly involved since I moved to the community in 2003. Matt has been involved since he moved in several years ago.

All of these people you are casting aspersions at, or sucking up to as the case may be, I have known and have worked/dealt with many a time, including Joe, Gloria, Claude, and Louise.

So please, save the accolades. I personally have no need for them. I have always, and will always call them as I see them.

That's the problem. You weren't calling them as you saw them, until last night's meeting.

wow, the powers you have, what with being able to know how someone else "sees" something.  really? seriously?

Quote from: fsujax on November 06, 2009, 10:38:11 AM
The interesting thing last night was when Chris Farley turned to the crowd and ask if anyone wanted a rooming/boarding house or whatever next door to them.....guess how many people raised thier hands??? 0..... I was wondering where all the outspoken supporters of the facilities were. They didn't say too much. This was my first Springfield meeting and it was not what I was expecting....where were the fireworks??? :-)

fsu, that's like asking how many people stopped beating their children.

Would I actively encourage such a facility to be next to me?  Probably not.  But if I had one next to me and it never caused any problems would I want to spy on them to get them forced out?  That's a different question.

I don't expect SPAR to go out and recruit new boarding houses or recovery houses.  I just don't think we need to spend so much time and energy driving away some folks who aren't causing any (proven) harm.  Personally I think if we continue to keep doing all the right things - making the community safe and vibrant - these houses won't be an issue.

But then, I live in the bubble...

Quote from: fsujax on November 06, 2009, 10:38:11 AM
The interesting thing last night was when Chris Farley turned to the crowd and ask if anyone wanted a rooming/boarding house or whatever next door to them.....guess how many people raised thier hands??? 0..... I was wondering where all the outspoken supporters of the facilities were. They didn't say too much. This was my first Springfield meeting and it was not what I was expecting....where were the fireworks??? :-)

Mmmmm, sorry I missed the meeting last night...

And that is a loaded question.
 How about asking... if anyone wants a well run rooming/boarding house or whatever next door to them...
 My answer is sure. I've got no problem with it.

hey bubble lady (said with all the love and affection possible) i still beat monkey ;) , is there a problem with that?  maybe a better question is - how many people here are alcoholics, just don't live in a special "house"? oh, that's right, the one's in the sober houses have admitted that they have a problem. my bad.
i am curious, do we think that these places cause more trouble than, let's say the crack running APARTMENT building at the corner of 5th and perry?

Quote from: fsujax on November 06, 2009, 10:38:11 AM
The interesting thing last night was when Chris Farley turned to the crowd and ask if anyone wanted a rooming/boarding house or whatever next door to them.....guess how many people raised thier hands??? 0..... I was wondering where all the outspoken supporters of the facilities were. They didn't say too much. This was my first Springfield meeting and it was not what I was expecting....where were the fireworks??? :-)

Kind of an odd question since no new rooming/boarding houses are allowed. So people living near the 8 or so legal ones already have them there. Others can't get any next to them.

Quote from: fsujax on November 06, 2009, 10:38:11 AM
The interesting thing last night was when Chris Farley turned to the crowd and ask if anyone wanted a rooming/boarding house or whatever next door to them.....guess how many people raised thier hands??? 0..... I was wondering where all the outspoken supporters of the facilities were. They didn't say too much. This was my first Springfield meeting and it was not what I was expecting....where were the fireworks??? :-)

So that must mean that people want petty battles, conflicts of interests, sneaky tricks like being asked to "sign in" when really they're signing a government petition, a B.O.D. and E.D. who disregard bylaws and refuse to stand for election, and on, and on, and on?

Quote from: cindi on November 06, 2009, 10:53:53 AM

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 06, 2009, 10:28:43 AM

Quote from: Dan B on November 06, 2009, 10:21:53 AM
Chris, for some reason you think we are babes in the wood or something. We arent. I was a sitting board member for almost three years, and have been fairly involved since I moved to the community in 2003. Matt has been involved since he moved in several years ago.

All of these people you are casting aspersions at, or sucking up to as the case may be, I have known and have worked/dealt with many a time, including Joe, Gloria, Claude, and Louise.

So please, save the accolades. I personally have no need for them. I have always, and will always call them as I see them.

That's the problem. You weren't calling them as you saw them, until last night's meeting.

wow, the powers you have, what with being able to know how someone else "sees" something.  really? seriously?

You don't need any special powers. Just read his own comments over the past month.

Jeez people!

I'm rather surprised how some people feel about the meeting.

1) I was disappointed that there wasn't time to talk about other things too, but I guess I misunderstood the purpose of the meeting. I didn't realize how this one topic could take so much time to discuss.

2) I wasn't there when it started, came in 2 minutes late, but noone asked me to "sign in". I did get passed the petition though. I saw it at the end and there were about 25-30 signatures and 2 people's names crossed out. As everyone knows, at every neighborhood meeting (SPAR, Shadco, SAMBA, etc) people are asked to sign in. If she said at the start to "sign in" I'm guessing this is what she was referring to. Besides, the petition was clearly marked at the top of the page. CLEARLY MARKED.

3) Sheclown, noone was encourage to "spy on neighbors". They specifically said to observe and document if they see something funny going on. See the difference? Saying that they encouraged people to spy on neighbors is dishonest and disingenuious. Observing & documenting suspicious behavior is standard no matter what issue you are talking about or what neighborhood you live in.

4) Matt McVay, how would you suggest engaging the owners of an illegal boarding house that they delibrately don't want authorties to find, they didn't go through proper application (b/c it would be denied), and are trying be be as UNavailable as possible. I do know for fact that letters have been written to owners. As you can imagine, they aren't eager to respond unless they are legit.Again, I wouldn't characterize "if you see something that doesn't look right, observe and document it" as a "witch hunt".

5) There are 8 legit rooming houses, 16 addition, illegal ones suspected. Let's say half of those turn out to be nothing.......that still is DOUBLES the amount of legal rooming houses. And as was stated multiple times last night me, you, or SPAR is not in charge of determining what is & what is not a rooming house. Totally out of yours & SPARs hands. That's up to the city to determine and enforce. And if a house is not, then fine, great, nothing for them or anyone else to worry about.

6) I though Michael Truatman has the best ideas of how to effectively communicate to the pwoers that be. I hope those action steps are taken.

7) All of Proton's housing is public knowledge and can be found at thier website. I have no idea why that comparison was brought up, but it's easily dismissed. There are B&B type places on the list, but no "rooms are for rent". Furthermore, I have personally inspected proposed housing for our patients that WERE rooming houses. Namely one on Pearl Street. Obviously we weren't interested.

8) Springfielder, noone suggested that neighbors call in a barrage of phone calls because the property is a recovery house. That's a dishonest statement. There are 8 legit rooming houses which will be made public today (check SPAR's website), the rest are illegal. If this 'recovery house' has more than 5 unrelated people in it and it's not of the 8 grandafthered in, then it's illegal and people SHOULD call and complain about it. If it doesn't fit the citeria then they shouldn't. Noone suggested otherwise.

9) cindi, you are correct. There are no more additional facilities allowed, besides the 8 that already exist. But some people have added them anyways. This is black & white, open & closed case. Where the issue gets sticky is a "low-density" home, meaning that they have 5 unrelated people living there (so it's under the 6 limit) but the purpose is still the same. The best example of these would be Strider & Sheclowns "sober houses". While technically legal, it goes against the sentiment of the law/code when written.

10) fsujax, exactly. Noone raised their hand when asked who would like a rooming house next door to them. Noone. Not the vocal proponents of them, even. The 8 that are grandfathered in are spoken for and fine. No issues. Any others are the issue. And as everyone found out last night, they are certainly here and trying to expand. trying to EXPAND. not keep the status qou. EXPAND. That is not a good thing if you happen to live in the neighborhood. Noone is advocating harrassment, spying, etc. Noone has an issue with the 8 grandfathered rooming houses. It's additional ones that need to be nipped in the bud. Simply observing and documenting helps.

11) As I suspected, there was one large personality that is noticebabley present in most of these discussions online and noticeabley absent in these discussions in-person.

12) Also, proponents of these boarding houses spoke up once during the meeting. It was to dispute the claim that a well-educated rooming house tenant was helping to write grants in exchange for housing, and that he was working with other agencies in efforts to expand. This was reported by perhaps the most reputable of the SPAR board, the VP. I've never heard a negative word said about him. he also reported that a 1-800 had been in use to place people in illegal boarding houses.

Quote from: fsu813Springfielder, noone suggested that neighbors call in a barrage of phone calls because the property is a recovery house. That's a dishonest statement. There are 8 legit rooming houses which will be made public today (check SPAR's website), the rest are illegal. If this 'recovery house' has more than 5 unrelated people in it and it's not of the 8 grandafthered in, then it's illegal and people SHOULD call and complain about it. If it doesn't fit the citeria then they shouldn't. Noone suggested otherwise.

Interpretation, and yours is clearly different. I did however like the good people vs bad people, which yes, was quickly taken back when he was called on that....

again, you are claiming to be able to read his mind/innermost thoughts, who died and left you swami?, perhaps you have a tumor and should seek help at the proton beam facility, then even you can be bestowed the priveledge of staying in springfield without being the target of a witch hunt.  

Quote from: cindi on November 06, 2009, 11:38:16 AM
again, you are claiming to be able to read his mind/innermost thoughts, who died and left you swami?, perhaps you have a tumor and should seek help at the proton beam facility, then even you can be bestowed the priveledge of staying in springfield without being the target of a witch hunt.  

I'd love to have you show me where I said I'm able to read his mind. Lol. You don't have to! Just read his posts.

Quote from: cindiagain, you are claiming to be able to read his mind/innermost thoughts, who died and left you swami?, perhaps you have a tumor and should seek help at the proton beam facility, then even you can be bestowed the priveledge of staying in springfield without being the target of a witch hunt.  

That's rich, thanks Cindi....I needed a good laugh  ;D

Springfielder,

interpretation?

ok. if you say so.

the legal, grandfathered rooming houses were just mentioned in passing. that was not the topic last night.



cindi,

I wouldn't characterize "if you see something that doesn't look right, observe and document it" as a "witch hunt".

i guess that's another "interpretation" thing, huh?

???

Quote from: fsu813
Springfielder,

interpretation?

ok. if you say so.

the legal, grandfathered rooming houses were just mentioned in passing. that was not the topic last night.

Hello....you said my statement was dishonest....when I used the word barrage. ::)

Quote9) cindi, you are correct. There are no more additional facilities allowed, besides the 8 that already exist. But some people have added them anyways. This is black & white, open & closed case. Where the issue gets sticky is a "low-density" home, meaning that they have 5 unrelated people living there (so it's under the 6 limit) but the purpose is still the same. The best example of these would be Strider & Sheclowns "sober houses". While technically legal, it goes against the sentiment of the law/code when written.

since it appears you wish to take everything literal. 5 unrelated people living under one roof is legal. period. just as the CARE system probably wasn't intended to be used as part of a witch hunt.
witch-hunt (plural witch-hunts)
noun 
Definition:
1. campaign against dissenters: an intensive systematic campaign directed against those who have done something wrong or who hold different views
 
i continue to ask, are these houses worse than the crack apartments that are actual apartments?

Quote from: Matt McVay on November 06, 2009, 12:06:33 PM
You are presuming that they are illegal, that they are trying to avoid the authorities.

First off, +1

But it's even worse than what you suspect. Not only are you correct in that they make no real effort to work with the property owners, but half the time the "Big L" & company have already turned a place into code enforcement 1,000 times already and COJ has investigated and declared it legal. But they just don't like the result, so they keep right on with the harassment.

I can't believe I'm about to agree with Cindi, but she's spot-on. It's an abuse of the CARE system, which was not designed or intended to assist people with harassing other people they don't like.

Quote from: fsu813 on November 06, 2009, 11:29:13 AM
2) I wasn't there when it started, came in 2 minutes late, but noone asked me to "sign in". I did get passed the petition though. I saw it at the end and there were about 25-30 signatures and 2 people's names crossed out. As everyone knows, at every neighborhood meeting (SPAR, Shadco, SAMBA, etc) people are asked to sign in. If she said at the start to "sign in" I'm guessing this is what she was referring to. Besides, the petition was clearly marked at the top of the page. CLEARLY MARKED.

I was one of the first people there last night. The petition was on the table in the front of the room and Louise was telling everyone as they walked in to "Please sign in" not "please sign our petition".  The petition was on a clip board and the word PETITION was NOT CLEARLY MARKED as you would lead people to believe. The word PETITION was covered by the clip holding it to the board. It was passed back through the crowd to be signed, when Matt's lovely wife noticed the word PETITION and pointed it out to us. Matt and I then read it. Matt scratched out his and his wife's name and I passed it along letting the folks behind us know that it was in fact a PETITION and NOT a sign in sheet. What I don't understand, Mr. FSU is, if she wanted people to sign a PETITION why would she refer to it as a sign in sheet??? It was sneaky at best.  Shame on Louise, Claude, and anyone else who is involved in that charade that was called a meeting last night..

From the spar website

QuoteThe petition that was at last night’s Community Meeting WILL NOT be used. Petitions will be available to be signed at a later date.

Gee....I wonder why  ;)

This is not a complete or accurate list.  Strider will update this later.

So where's the "naughty" list?

Quote from: cindiSo where's the "naughty" list?

Maybe Santa's checking it

Quote
Re: Springfield Community Meeting - 11/05 @ 7pm
« Reply #74 on: Today at 01:37:56 PM »
Quote
From SPAR Weekly newsletter:

Quote
The Community Meeting on Nov. 5th was very well attended and very productive. Springfield residents asked SPAR to provide the following list of licensed rooming houses.

Licensed Springfield Rooming Houses in compliance with 2007-1046-E

1214-1216 N. Main St.â€"Lone Palm Guest House

1152 N. Laura St.â€"Frances Rooms

133 W. 6th St.â€"Ruth’s Family Home Away From Home

1120 Hubbard St.â€"Alco Halfway House

1222 Hubbard St.â€"(C. Louise Wilson) Vintage Properties

1733 N. Pearl St.â€"Home Away From Home

217 E 1st St.â€"Dortch’s Rooming House

205 E 1st St.â€"Dortch’s Rooming House

20 W 4th St.â€"Alcoholics Service Center

1704-1706 N. Pearl St.â€"City Houses, Inc.

This is the list of "licensed" rooming houses, and there are 10? I thought we were looking for grandfathered rooming houses, of which there are 8? Licensed means they received State license to operate as such, and the State can, and does, issue these licenses without verification of the legality (by zoning code and/or overlay), correct?

1152 N. Laura St.—Frances Rooms

have to say, know this one well.  Know the owner, residents and have to say they're good people! its beautiful inside too.  

There are a wide variety of licenses for these "rooming houses" -- the ones grandfathered in.  It is complicated and if we are to have a discussion about them, it should have its own thread.  Can we split this?

Anyone know if tricking people to sign a petition is illegal? Regardless on whether they intend to use this petition, I think it needs to be addressed. That disappoints me that any neighborhood organization would stoop to this level.

Just curious, what has brought up the 16 or so "illegal" rooming houses? Has there been issues at these homes, are the properties not kept, etc..? I mean, illegal rooming houses doesn't seem to be the biggest problem in our neighborhood, though they may contribute in some instances (not sure, just saying the possibility exists). Also, shouldn't SPAR have these urgent meetings to trick people into petitioning the mayor for repairs on brick roads or tax incentives to open businesses here or something?

Maybe that's why some of us are in a peace bubble. We don't live next to the rooming houses???? ;)

Quote from: stephendare on November 06, 2009, 01:59:00 PM
What is meant by this SPAR created term "suspect"?

"People Louise doesn't like"

Quote from: stephendare on November 06, 2009, 02:05:56 PM
This is SPARtarded.

Careful...you're close to infringing upon my copyright  ;D ;D ;D ;D

Quote from: Johnny on November 06, 2009, 01:59:44 PM
Anyone know if tricking people to sign a petition is illegal? Regardless on whether they intend to use this petition, I think it needs to be addressed. That disappoints me that any neighborhood organization would stoop to this level.

Just curious, what has brought up the 16 or so "illegal" rooming houses? Has there been issues at these homes, are the properties not kept, etc..? I mean, illegal rooming houses doesn't seem to be the biggest problem in our neighborhood, though they may contribute in some instances (not sure, just saying the possibility exists). Also, shouldn't SPAR have these urgent meetings to trick people into petitioning the mayor for repairs on brick roads or tax incentives to open businesses here or something?

The "rooming house issue" is just a distraction, planned and orchestrated.

Quote from: Matt McVay on November 06, 2009, 02:09:43 PM
This is the same "show of force" that was called for 6 months ago.  After a meeting with the councilman and other "powers that be" it seems like there is still some question of what is legal or not.  I find that to be puzzling.

Perhaps, they just don't like what they heard.

Jason Teal, of the General Counsel's office, tried to tell them what they didn't want to hear this summer and they aimed a sh$t storm on his head.

There were a few snide comments about Gaffney last night.  They don't like what they are hearing.  Do you really think the city officials, Sean Kelly, Kimberly Scott, Shannon Eller and Dr. Gaffney suggested to SPAR to walk around the neighborhood with tape players and video cameras and ask people where they live and the circumstances of their living arrangements (as Trautmann suggested last night? Or as Kharis proudly talked about his deception engaging a local in conversation?)

Okay - have to jump in on one topic - the petition. I was the first person to notice (as I was about to sign) that this was other than a sign-in sheet, and when others came in I told several people to read it first before signing. Then it went around the room.

I just had a great conversation with the engaging Ms. Chris Farley, who spoke directly to Louise about the petition today. Turns out it was a left-over from a previous meeting and set out without realizing it still had the petition verbiage (which was NOT apparent unless you read the detailed print. It really DID look like a sign-in sheet, I almost signed it myself but thought I'd read the upper blurb first.)

Chris has the pulse of this neighborhood and does not believe there was a deliberate attempt to deceive. After our conversation, I agree with her - although I was quite incensed last night.

Having said all this, I expect to be called a Sparbarian, or accused of being Louise signed in under a new name (since it's only my second post ever), or otherwise generally skewered. Feel free, at least I was at the meeting.

For what it's worth, it was a great pleasure to see many of you I already know and meet and shake the hand of many of you for the first time (Gloria and Joe among the group.)  The meeting definitely had an agenda but it was completely open to any and all questions. If you didn't raise your hand, your thoughts weren't going to be heard.

At least we know the focus of SPAR's efforts to clamp down on illegal and additional boarding/rooming houses.  Joe, I did feel the code was explained sufficiently for this meeting, except the part about more than five unrelated individuals living in a single family home.

Gloria, are you still looking for that piece of cake?

When is the SHARP meeting I would wish to attend

Quote from: Matt McVay on November 06, 2009, 02:09:43 PM
This is the same "show of force" that was called for 6 months ago.  After a meeting with the councilman and other "powers that be" it seems like there is still some question of what is legal or not.  I find that to be puzzling.

There's no real question about what's legal. COJ's code and zoning departments and the GC's office have said repeatedly what they consider to be legal about rooming houses and apartments. The real problem is the child-like behavior of certain people who just didn't like the outcome.

It's literally: "I'm moving in here, and now everybody else I don't like has to move out".

QuoteHaving said all this, I expect to be called a Sparbarian, or accused of being Louise signed in under a new name (since it's only my second post ever), or otherwise generally skewered. Feel free, at least I was at the meeting.

Yep, prepare to be skewered. In SPR, you are not allowed to give benefit of the doubt to SPAR. If SPAR makes an error, it is part of some orchestrated conspiracy plot.

Quote from: PorchCats on November 06, 2009, 02:19:54 PM
Turns out it was a left-over from a previous meeting and set out without realizing it still had the petition verbiage (which was NOT apparent unless you read the detailed print. It really DID look like a sign-in sheet, I almost signed it myself but thought I'd read the upper blurb first.)

Chris has the pulse of this neighborhood and does not believe there was a deliberate attempt to deceive.

If you honestly believe that Louise wouldn't have sent that 'petition' into COJ if people hadn't figured it out, then you may be interested in this wonderful bridge I have for sale...

Oh, and BTW, Bernie Madoff just called and needs your help smuggling his hidden billions out of Nigeria.

(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01205/madoff_1205718c.jpg)

Quote from: zoo on November 06, 2009, 02:27:20 PM

QuoteHaving said all this, I expect to be called a Sparbarian, or accused of being Louise signed in under a new name (since it's only my second post ever), or otherwise generally skewered. Feel free, at least I was at the meeting.

Yep, prepare to be skewered. In SPR, you are not allowed to give benefit of the doubt to SPAR. If SPAR makes an error, it is part of some orchestrated conspiracy plot.

Especially if you only have two posts. I mean, how do we know this supposed "porchcats" person isnt just one of my many alter-egos?

I met a man last night at the meeting named "Porchcats" -- he wasn't Dan.  I would gladly testify to that.

Not true.

I changed it once.

Downtownparks still exists, but the login has been broken on purpose. I felt the need to retire it, and then I took a month+ long hiatus.

When I came back, I registered my last name, but then tought better of it, and asked Lunican to change it instead to my first name.

Nothing nefarious there.

this isn't going to end in a mud wrestling challenge, is it?

Well then, its too bad you wont appreciate it as we continue to run it into the ground.

Quote from: chris farley on November 06, 2009, 02:20:33 PM
When is the SHARP meeting I would wish to attend

Quote from: Dan B on November 06, 2009, 02:35:14 PM
Not true.

I changed it once.

Downtownparks still exists, but the login has been broken on purpose. I felt the need to retire it, and then I took a month+ long hiatus.

When I came back, I registered my last name, but then tought better of it, and asked Lunican to change it instead to my first name.

Nothing nefarious there.

OK...

So you had 1 screename (downtownparks), then you started up a 2nd one, then asked the mods to switch that 2nd one into still a 3rd one. Thanks for the clarification. That's so hugely different from Stephen's statement that you had 3 screenames in a day that I can see why you'd correct him. Not.

And there wasn't anything nefarious in my calling out that the same person was clearly posting under different screenames, either. It just looked fishy. Ultimately, it turned out it probably wasn't. But I didn't know that.

was there any BBQ last night?  that would have been a nice thing for SPAR to have offered, I might have attended for free BBQ.

now, boys... I'm going to go get Lake...

This petition, that supposedly was a mistake... did it have what the petition was originally intended for? If so, was it for the same rooming house issue that was being discussed in the meeting?

Quote from: stephendare on November 06, 2009, 02:33:11 PM
To be fair about it dan, you changed your screen name three times in one day.

along with a bunch of hysterical first time posters who had clearly never read the site before. (who then proceeded to post non stop about SPAR issues for two solid weeks.)

Just wondering if this influx of "hysterical first time posters" coincided with the shutdown of the SPAR forum? That's why I came over here, to see if I could find out what happened. And although I've just started posting, I've been registered and reading this forum for a while now.

Sheclown, did you ever see Dan and I in the room at the same time?  ;)

Quote from: chris farley on November 06, 2009, 02:40:28 PM

Quote from: chris farley on November 06, 2009, 02:20:33 PM
When is the SHARP meeting I would wish to attend

Chris, keep asking. Maybe YOU will get an answer. The other people who've asked are still hearing crickets. It doesn't seem to be a very well thought out organization if they can't answer questions and say one thing but mean another. I thought it was supposed to be different than SPAR. Hmm.

Funny thing... I didn't know SHARP was real. I thought it was being thrown out there like a suggestion or possibly a fairy tale organization to counter SPAR...

Quote from: Johnny on November 06, 2009, 03:00:50 PM
This petition, that supposedly was a mistake... did it have what the petition was originally intended for? If so, was it for the same rooming house issue that was being discussed in the meeting?

Funny, isn't it? The answers are; YES and YES. What an unfortunate coincidence! What ARE the odds on that? Hmmm....

that's the assumption I was under too

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 06, 2009, 03:08:28 PM

Quote from: Johnny on November 06, 2009, 03:00:50 PM
This petition, that supposedly was a mistake... did it have what the petition was originally intended for? If so, was it for the same rooming house issue that was being discussed in the meeting?

Funny, isn't it? The answers are; YES and YES. What an unfortunate coincidence! What ARE the odds on that? Hmmm....

Actually, I DID read it (I was actually at the meeting, after all.) And it seemed somewhat related but not quite "spot on." I believe it was a left over from a meeting with/about police and code enforcement held recently? Does that ring any bells for anyone who might have been at that one?

porchcats,
That may have been at the Shadco meeting.

They circulated a petition at the SHADCO meeting too?

Quote from: PorchCats on November 06, 2009, 03:15:00 PM

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 06, 2009, 03:08:28 PM

Quote from: Johnny on November 06, 2009, 03:00:50 PM
This petition, that supposedly was a mistake... did it have what the petition was originally intended for? If so, was it for the same rooming house issue that was being discussed in the meeting?

Funny, isn't it? The answers are; YES and YES. What an unfortunate coincidence! What ARE the odds on that? Hmmm....

Actually, I DID read it (I was actually at the meeting, after all.) And it seemed somewhat related but not quite "spot on." I believe it was a left over from a meeting with/about police and code enforcement held recently? Does that ring any bells for anyone who might have been at that one?

And you're 100% SURE you don't want to buy my bridge? It's reeeeeeeeeeeeeally nice...

No

Quote from: sheclown on November 06, 2009, 03:21:46 PM
They circulated a petition at the SHADCO meeting too?

No. But it "might" have been at the table. I really don't recall for certain. Which is why I shouldn't say anything if I'm not certain. Stopping now.

Doug V., did you circulate a petition against rooming houses at the last Shadco meeting?

There was one at the police night out, I manned the table and there were several such clipboards, I do not go to SHADCO

When is the SHARP meeting I would wish to go

Quote from: sheclown on November 06, 2009, 03:28:44 PM
Doug V., did you circulate a petition against rooming houses at the last Shadco meeting?

For the record, I did not say it was against rooming houses, and don't recall that being specifically mentioned at all. I said it related to code enforcement, and I don't know WHICH code(s) it referred to.

Quote from: sheclown on November 06, 2009, 03:28:44 PM
Doug V., did you circulate a petition against rooming houses at the last Shadco meeting?

sheclown, I was at the meeting and one was not circulated.

thanks for the clarificaton.

- Springfielder, i didn't say your statement was dishonest because you used the word "barrage". Again, an interesting "interpretation" to say the least. It was dishonest because the only time using code enforcement as a tool was mentioned was when talking about suspected ILLEGAL boarding houses. No legal, grandfathered exisiting ones. That's obviously a big difference.

- Cindi, yes, 5 unrelated people living in a house is completely legal. If they were put there as a tenatnats "low-density" sober house (since official, 6+ version are outlawed) it's legal, while at the same time skirting the sentiment of the law/code when written. Noone has ever denied that to my knowledge. The code was written to prevent the expansion of such houses, obviously not written that well. Noone has ever denied the intent of the code when written. Like i've said before, I don't blame anyone for taking advantage of a techincally legal action that goes agianst the sentiment of the law. (ie, businesses having thier "office" in the islands to avopid paying taxes). If it's legal, it's legalfine. But don't be surprised if the technicality / loophole is addressed.

- Matt M, the "fact-finding" is happening/has happened/ will happen. Just because SPAR does't tell you perosnally that they've written letters, looked up property records, have mulitple sources that a house is a rooming house doesn't mean that they haven't. Those kind of details are best discussed on a 1 on 1 basis. And "observing and documenting anything suspicious" is part of the fact-finding. If there is nothing suspicious or to document, then no action will be taken. If there is, then that can lead to code enforcement checking the place out (ie fact-finding). If a propety isn't an illegal boarding house they have absolutely nothing to worry about.

- soxfan & Matt M, If you honestly think they were trying "trick" people into signing the petition then they wouldn't have put the paragraph explaining the petiton at the of of the page. Like someone said, it didn't exactly relate to the what was being discussed even. They could have been sneaky and placed it somewhere other than the top of the front page (....not the best place to out something they don't want you to read, huh). Or completely lied all together and gotten signatures then typed the petion info on the top afterwards. There are many sneaky ways to go about it, again - placing a paragraph at the top of the front page is not one of them, espcially whejn it's nopt exactly related to the topic.

- Johnny, what brought the issue of rooming houses to the forefront agian is an effort to add more, many more, to the neighborhood. At one point most were out, now they are seeping back in.

- Sheclown, Michael Trautman was being sarcastic when talking about actually walking around video taping & audio recording. As indicated by the laughter after he said it. I suspect you knew this but are trying to gain sympathy. SPARS VP, Kharis, found out some very useful (and rather shocking) information about illegal rooming houses.  I also suspect you would have him rather NOT find out that a 1-800 was being used to place people in illegal boarding houses? And, I bet that you would have preferred him NOT to explain his encounter with the guy who is staying in your Liberty Street house. You disputed his story. Those were both rather eye-opening for many who didn't think this was much of an issue.

Quote from: PorchCats on November 06, 2009, 02:19:54 PM
Chris has the pulse of this neighborhood and does not believe there was a deliberate attempt to deceive.

really???? Says who?? There seems to be a lot of people reading minds around here. She does NOT speak for me or have my pulse.

Quote from: cindi on November 06, 2009, 04:02:15 PM

Quote from: PorchCats on November 06, 2009, 02:19:54 PM
Chris has the pulse of this neighborhood and does not believe there was a deliberate attempt to deceive.

really???? Says who?? There seems to be a lot of people reading minds around here. She does NOT speak for me or have my pulse.

Not my words or my belief or my desire and I do not wish to be liked by Stephen

When is the SHARP meeting I wish to go

Quote from: sheclown on November 06, 2009, 03:21:46 PM
They circulated a petition at the SHADCO meeting too?

It was actually at the National Night Out. I was there.

Sorry I called it the police night, I think of it as that

Was there any date on this petition that indicated it was from a prior meeting, or just a blank form labeled "PETITION"?

Because personally, I still put the odds of someone 'accidentally' grabbing forms that were a petition against rooming houses, and using them as a sign-in sheet at this meeting, which coincidentally enough was about how we don't want rooming houses, at somewhere around 0.

That's just an awfully coincidental 'mistake', and frankly, claiming that it was 'accidental' just defies all logic, especially given the lengthy history of these type of shenanigans by the same people. And if there was no pre-printed date, it could, and probably would, have been submitted to COJ as new evidence of the neighborhood's opinion on the issue.

Quote from: fsu813 on November 06, 2009, 03:55:28 PM

- soxfan & Matt M, If you honestly think they were trying "trick" people into signing the petition then they wouldn't have put the paragraph explaining the petiton at the of of the page. Like someone said, it didn't exactly relate to the what was being discussed even. They could have been sneaky and placed it somewhere other than the top of the front page (....not the best place to out something they don't want you to read, huh). Or completely lied all together and gotten signatures then typed the petion info on the top afterwards. There are many sneaky ways to go about it, again - placing a paragraph at the top of the front page is not one of them, espcially whejn it's nopt exactly related to the topic.

wow, so spar is in such financial shambles that they are having to recycle "sign in forms"? for an organization that is so big on crossting t's and dotting i's, that seems a little sloppy.

Quote from: Karl_Pilkington on November 06, 2009, 02:43:22 PM
was there any BBQ last night?  that would have been a nice thing for SPAR to have offered, I might have attended for free BBQ.

you know, actually, if all these poser swami's really knew anything they would know that everything goes better with a deep fried turkey.  i'm voting - scones with bones. 

Quote from: cindi on November 06, 2009, 05:18:56 PM
everything goes better with a deep fried turkey. 

sounds like there may have been a couple of those on the SPAR agenda last night.

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 06, 2009, 04:58:44 PM
Was there any date on this petition that indicated it was from a prior meeting, or just a blank form labeled "PETITION"?

Because personally, I still put the odds of someone 'accidentally' grabbing forms that were a petition against rooming houses, and using them as a sign-in sheet at this meeting, which coincidentally enough was about how we don't want rooming houses, at somewhere around 0.

That's just an awfully coincidental 'mistake', and frankly, claiming that it was 'accidental' just defies all logic, especially given the lengthy history of these type of shenanigans by the same people. And if there was no pre-printed date, it could, and probably would, have been submitted to COJ as new evidence of the neighborhood's opinion on the issue.

It definitely was from a previous meeting and it was one of about 6 clipboards that was picked up, and the 25 odd signatures from last night have been shredded due to the mistake.  If they wished to submit signatures to FTU they could have done the 100 or so they got on National Night out a long long time ago but they have not.
Also SPAR is recycling other papers and no longer throw away anything with just one side used.  Nothing wrong with that.
But more importantly - whenn is the SHARP meeting I wish to go

Surely there is nothing devious here and it is being kept secret

Quote from: chris farley on November 06, 2009, 06:14:13 PM
If they wished to submit signatures to FTU they could have done the 100 or so they got on National Night out a long long time ago but they have not.

They collected signatures and didn't submit them? You sure about that? Why would anyone do that?

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 06, 2009, 06:28:05 PM

Quote from: chris farley on November 06, 2009, 06:14:13 PM
If they wished to submit signatures to FTU they could have done the 100 or so they got on National Night out a long long time ago but they have not.

Wow, you have no idea how much it pains me to say this, that's a good question. Now excuse me while I go see if hell froze over.
They collected signatures and didn't submit them? You sure about that? Why would anyone do that?

Quote from: cindi on November 06, 2009, 06:44:01 PM

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 06, 2009, 06:28:05 PM

Quote from: chris farley on November 06, 2009, 06:14:13 PM
If they wished to submit signatures to FTU they could have done the 100 or so they got on National Night out a long long time ago but they have not.

Wow, you have no idea how much it pains me to say this, that's a good question. Now excuse me while I go see if hell froze over.
They collected signatures and didn't submit them? You sure about that? Why would anyone do that?

Have you seen anything in the FTU, maybe call them and see if they have them on file

AND   When is the SHARP meeting I wish to go

Quote from: chris farley on November 06, 2009, 07:03:54 PM

Quote from: cindi on November 06, 2009, 06:44:01 PM

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 06, 2009, 06:28:05 PM

Quote from: chris farley on November 06, 2009, 06:14:13 PM
If they wished to submit signatures to FTU they could have done the 100 or so they got on National Night out a long long time ago but they have not.

Wow, you have no idea how much it pains me to say this, that's a good question. Now excuse me while I go see if hell froze over.
They collected signatures and didn't submit them? You sure about that? Why would anyone do that?

Have you seen anything in the FTU, maybe call them and see if they have them on file

Chris, you don't really have to do any digging on this one to figure out you got sold a bill of goods. I mean, that doesn't even make sense. Why would SPAR bother with some petition drive and collect a bunch of signatures, only to NOT use them? It sounds like you may have been told a version of events that was intended to portray things in a more flattering light.

But even if they never submitted the formal petition to COJ, then you can still bet that this signature list was dragged out at every meeting Louise had with code enforcement, zoning, the GC's office, or that councilman she's been pestering. They may not have submitted the formal petition, but I guarantee you she's been using that list. And it equally defies logic that someone could "accidentally" switch a sign-in sheet out for an anti-rooming house petition, at an anti-rooming house meeting. Sure you have to admit, that's a little too coincidental.

Chris you are correct in one thing, I do not know if and when they have been submitted anywhere, I just try and fund raise for Springfield.  Actually and I know this will not ba accepted, I mis read COJ and thought you were referring to FTU - my mistake,  I did not recheck.

Will you tell me where the SHARP meeting is going to be held and when?

Quote from: stephendare on November 06, 2009, 08:23:44 PM

Quote from: chris farley on November 06, 2009, 04:16:01 PM

Quote from: cindi on November 06, 2009, 04:02:15 PM

Quote from: PorchCats on November 06, 2009, 02:19:54 PM
Chris has the pulse of this neighborhood and does not believe there was a deliberate attempt to deceive.

really???? Says who?? There seems to be a lot of people reading minds around here. She does NOT speak for me or have my pulse.

Not my words or my belief or my desire and I do not wish to be liked by Stephen

When is the SHARP meeting I wish to go

Luckily you have nothing to fear on this score. ;)

I suppose when I get around to planting a tacky flower garden, I shall simply have to choose another form of ornament.   Ceramic frogs perhaps?

Have you tried emailing the sharp group?

You should try it tomorrow morning, before all the tea drinking begins.

If you have already emailed them, perhaps they have their reasons for not returning your email.

Like keeping stuff secret, are you serious?

My poor flowers what have they done to you?  The ornament came from the Cummer

But
How much feline is too much feline in the town of Dudley, Mass.?
The answer: If you have four of the furry four-legged friends without a special license, you've gone too far.
The town made it illegal this week to own more than three cats without getting a $50 residential kennel license. Voters at a town meeting added language to a town bylaw that makes it illegal to own more than three cats without the special license.

But I liked what you said - I think I am going to have a sign made for my fence - Come have tea in my tacky flower garden -  seriously I like it maybe Gin will paint it for me

Quote from: chris farley on November 06, 2009, 08:24:12 PM
Chris you are correct in one thing, I do not know if and when they have been submitted anywhere, I just try and fund raise for Springfield.  Actually and I know this will not ba accepted, I mis read COJ and thought you were referring to FTU - my mistake,  I did not recheck.

No, it's OK Chris, and this certainly isn't your fault, or your doing. From all accounts, including sheclown's, you're a conscientious person who cares about the neighborhood. I don't think you're engaged in the SPAR behavior that so many (including me) find offensive, but at the same time I wonder whether you're really getting the full story from Louise & Co. on exactly what happened with this "petition"?

Obviously you asked them what happened, and rightly so. It's just that I'm just unsure whether you'd have gotten any less of a dishonest answer than what usually comes out of that group. I mean, it's not like they're just going to come right out and say "Oh yeah, we tried getting some 'extra' signatures and got busted...hehehe". Naturally, they're going to give you some B.S. excuse that makes no sense. That's to be expected. And it sounds like that is exactly what happened.

Quote from: stephendare on November 06, 2009, 08:28:26 PM

Quote from: chris farley on November 06, 2009, 04:16:01 PM

Quote from: cindi on November 06, 2009, 04:02:15 PM

Quote from: PorchCats on November 06, 2009, 02:19:54 PM
Chris has the pulse of this neighborhood and does not believe there was a deliberate attempt to deceive.

really???? Says who?? There seems to be a lot of people reading minds around here. She does NOT speak for me or have my pulse.

Not my words or my belief or my desire and I do not wish to be liked by Stephen

When is the SHARP meeting I wish to go

Luckily you have nothing to fear on this score. ;)

I suppose when I get around to planting a tacky flower garden, I shall simply have to choose another form of ornament.   Ceramic frogs perhaps?

Have you tried emailing the sharp group?

You should try it tomorrow morning, before all the tea drinking begins.

If you have already emailed them, perhaps they have their reasons for not returning your email.

wow, talk about bunny boiling inappropriate.

Chris, one of my desires for the SHARP group is to put together all we have of Springfield's history and get it internet accessible.  In this capacity, your aid is very much requested and appreciated. 

Right now, we are in the Talking About What We are Going to Do stage.

Cindi, you are wasting your talent in that nurse's uniform -- you ought to be a writer.

How many cats constitute an illegal feline rooming house ?

Quote from: cindi on November 06, 2009, 04:02:15 PM

Quote from: PorchCats on November 06, 2009, 02:19:54 PM
Chris has the pulse of this neighborhood and does not believe there was a deliberate attempt to deceive.

really???? Says who?? There seems to be a lot of people reading minds around here. She does NOT speak for me or have my pulse.

Wow - I'll consider this post a badge of honor. You're just nobody in Springfield until you've been blasted by cindi on a public forum. And after only a handful of posts! I'll say this for cindi: at least her general contempt and disdain is observably equal opportunity.  ;)

Yeah, Cindi is sort of like that cute pit bull in the neighbor's yard.  You're kind of glad she's there, but you don't really want to stick your hand in the fence, either.

Quote from: PorchCats on November 07, 2009, 08:13:24 AM

Quote from: cindi on November 06, 2009, 04:02:15 PM

Quote from: PorchCats on November 06, 2009, 02:19:54 PM
Chris has the pulse of this neighborhood and does not believe there was a deliberate attempt to deceive.

really???? Says who?? There seems to be a lot of people reading minds around here. She does NOT speak for me or have my pulse.

Wow - I'll consider this post a badge of honor. You're just nobody in Springfield until you've been blasted by cindi on a public forum. And after only a handful of posts! I'll say this for cindi: at least her general contempt and disdain is observably equal opportunity.  ;)

really? don't flatter yourself.  "blasted" (wow, a little exagerrated huh - but hey that's the springfield way) because i disagree that Chris Farley has my "pulse", how RUDE of me to question the almighty.  how about the fact that everyone in springfield should consider themselves nobodies because evidently only a few people speak for everyone.  i have disdain and general contempt for people that are presumtive in believing they either truly know me or what i think and want.
as for your sheclown, go ahead, stick your hand in the fence again.  since you both seem to think you know what i am thinking - try it now.
WRONG, i am thinking - hey Karl, it's time for BBQ

Pulse was not meant literally, it meant maybe knowing something about the neighborhood, but please do not use my name again in messages like the previous
The following by Mark Slaughter, not directed at anyone in particular

Hate has burned a gaping hole -
The rancid reek of charring flesh
Is dancing on my very soul.
And as the rising fumes enmesh
My crumpled heart, I play the role
Of crabby fart, gassing off
A diatribe; bleeding out a
Bitter part: an ugly twisted man

the post was not directed at you but instead at the arrogance of the person making that statement.  perhaps they should have asked your permission to post your name as i was merely quoting the post.  the following by francis duggan, not directed at anyone in particular.
I never could like them and them I just tolerate
Those arrogant people who think they are great
They build themselves up by putting others down
And you meet them on every Street in every Town.

The opinions of others they dismiss offhand
And not one thing about empathy do they understand
They hurt others feelings yet remorse never show
And anything about kindness they do not seem to know.

They only seem to seek their own glorious hour
And they get themselves into positions of power
They are leaders in Government of us that surely say
That we do not choose wisely on Election Day.

Arrogant people are or were never rare
And for the feelings of others they never do care
Their bank accounts big and their values are small
And they don't believe in a fair go for all.

Arrogant people convince us that they are born to lead
For power and control they have in them this need
And the little power we have to them we do give
Though they don't believe in live and let live.

Quote from: cindi on November 07, 2009, 09:34:14 AM
WRONG, i am thinking - hey Karl, it's time for BBQ

well looks like the fires lit, all you need is some nice hickory or oak, get a good smoke going.

I went to this meeting intending not to talk but to listen.  To listen to what Louise and Company had to say.  To listen to what the residents had to say.

Someone earlier used the term “eye opening”.  It was, even for me.  I really didn’t think they would be so blatant about what they really believe.  Yes, “eye opening”.   Unfortunately for Louise and Company, it doesn’t seem like it was in the way they had hoped.

Like some are using various comments to deflect away from the real issues in this very thread, this entire meeting’s purpose, in my opinion,  was one of deflection.  Get the people riled up about the supposed illegal rooming houses, get them really pissed off at Joe and Gloria, among others that seemed to remain unnamed, and maybe no one will notice that we aren’t addressing the real issues.  Like why no elections … again.  Why Louise sent an e-mail stating that she was angry two historic homes did not get approved for demolition.  And, just for the record, I have checked out those houses and I agree they deserved a better look and probably be saved.  There are lots of unanswered questions.  And no hope of getting answers, at least not real answers, or so it would seem to be the case at the moment. 

Yep, and I learned a couple of things… Proton patients are much better people than most of us who live and work in Springfield and if you run an illegal rooming house but rent to proton patients, it’s probably OK.  Louise doesn’t seem to know the codes very well and Michael Trautman believes everyone should stalk anyone suspected of living in an illegal rooming house.  Then , even though this meeting was about rooming houses, they failed bring at least one copy of the  lists they were talking about with them.  Yes, a very interesting and informative meeting after all.

"Yep, and I learned a couple of things… Proton patients are much better people than most of us who live and work in Springfield and if you run an illegal rooming house but rent to proton patients, it’s probably OK.  Louise doesn’t seem to know the codes very well and Michael Trautman believes everyone should stalk anyone suspected of living in an illegal rooming house.  Then , even though this meeting was about rooming houses, they failed bring at least one copy of the  lists they were talking about with them.  Yes, a very interesting and informative meeting after all."

- 2 notes and then i'm done talking about this issue for a long while:

1) you play the victim well.
2) your wild distortion/exaggeration of statements in the meeting is basically lying.

i'm taking a vacation from this issue on MJ.

Springfield is crawling with wolves in sheep's clothing.

QuoteAnd this may be a very unpopular sentiment, but it seems the owners who are trying to convert these homes to recovery uses DO differentiate b/w Proton Therapy patients or military/college roommates versus their clients recovering from dependency. If they truly didn't perceive a difference, they would be opening recovery houses right next door to their own homes instead of in others' neighborhoods.

I'd like it to end up like many of the other urban, non-homogenous, non-HOA, tolerant, walkable neighborhoods with great retail/restaurant, great transit, and great greenspace that I've lived in in other cities. Those places successfully came back b/c they took care of the trash (visual blight) and safety issues, then pursued balanced economics and tolerance in ALL directions. You believe it's ok for you to label me all day long (and just as inaccurately as your other posts and claims, of course), but that just shows YOUR intolerance. Right now, Springfield is proving that intolerance, in any direction and to which you contribute, doesn't work.

1) I don't understand why urban neighborhood is supposed to be synonymous with housing everything deemed undesirable in other neighborhoods.
2)Chris Farley is an awesome, wonderful person and her house and yard are beautiful!
3)I just wanted to clarify an earlier post that said some people were asked to leave. All of us who were hanging out afterwards were asked to leave. We were shooed out so they could lock the building and leave the cleaning person in peace to clean.
4)There are more than 16 illegal rooming houses in Springfield. That list is just a starting point. SPAR didn't make up the list or choose to pursue this on their own. The list was compiled using complaints from concerned neighbors of the properties. It's very easy to know that a house is being used as a boarding house if you live near it. It is also easy to find out if it is legal.
5)The list of legal boarding/rooming/halfway houses came from the city. Any house operating as a boarding/rooming/halfway house that is not on that list is illegal.

Quote1) I don't understand why urban neighborhood is supposed to be synonymous with housing everything deemed undesirable in other neighborhoods.

Springfield Girl, many of the urban neighborhoods that I lived in other cities were all those things I indicated, including tolerant, without having a concentration of "everything deemed undesirable in other neighborhoods." The problem in Jax is an outdated, and threatened, social policy system that relied on Springfield and other urban communities remaining economically-challenged indefinitely, and, of course, contained.

The possibility that Springfield's revitalization could actually occur -- that the influx of people from other places who have seen and been involved in urban renewal before could really make it happen -- is shaking the social order in this City, and it's making many people very upset.

QuoteIve proven in actions, investment and time spent what I think.
The only people trying to 'get rid' of their neighbors is you and your little bandwagon.

Stephen you have history in this neighborhood and I respect that. But what actual investment do you have? What home do you own, what business do you own/operate? So you're here anyway, and you're my neighbor, fine. I'm your neighbor, too. Wouldn't you like to 'get rid' of me?

Hi Springfield girl

Quote3)I just wanted to clarify an earlier post that said some people were asked to leave. All of us who were hanging out afterwards were asked to leave. We were shooed out so they could lock the building and leave the cleaning person in peace to clean.

So Eva Ayes angrily came up to you and said that you were not allowed to be there, you were banned?  Then when you pointed out that Doug V had asked Louise about it for the Shadco meetings, Louise had said you were welcomed to go to any public meeting you wished, you got told that was a lie and that Louise and Claude sent her over to throw you out ?  She did all that to you too?   Wow, feisty old lady isn’t she.  Of course you have to wonder why Louise or Claude didn’t do it themselves….At least I did when Eva came up to me….

Quote4)There are more than 16 illegal rooming houses in Springfield. That list is just a starting point. SPAR didn't make up the list or choose to pursue this on their own. The list was compiled using complaints from concerned neighbors of the properties. It's very easy to know that a house is being used as a boarding house if you live near it. It is also easy to find out if it is legal.

So there is a list … again?  Or is it not really a list, just a list that exists somewhere….
We get told both…there is not a list but then again, there is a list ... which is it? It is going to be released?

Quote5)The list of legal boarding/rooming/halfway houses came from the city. Any house operating as a boarding/rooming/halfway house that is not on that list is illegal.

Not really correct…see the thread about the “Special Uses”…a few were missing on that list provided by SPAR Council.  I have to ask, is that the “list” that was e-mailed from Sean Kelly?  Because it was wrong and out of date….and you forgot the ALF’s and other group care homes…if they are licensed, they are legal and were grandfathered in right along with the others.

Joe

Quote from: strider on November 07, 2009, 03:15:45 PM
I went to this meeting intending not to talk but to listen.  To listen to what Louise and Company had to say.  To listen to what the residents had to say.

Yep, and I learned a couple of things… Proton patients are much better people than most of us who live and work in Springfield and if you run an illegal rooming house but rent to proton patients, it’s probably OK. 

Strider, I've only included part of your quote, because this is the part I wish to address. When the question of renting rooms to proton patients first came up, and someone questioned whether or not that was legal, Claude Moulton very clearly and very quickly made the point that, if it was determined that wasn't legal, then that couldn't be allowed either. That we have to be fair and treat everyone the same.  There were a couple of comments made later that sounded otherwise, and I didn't like those either because of the way they were presented, but it was my impression that almost everyone in the room felt as Claude did...the same rules should apply to everyone.   The President of SPAR said that as soon as the question of the proton patients came up. 

Quote from: stephendare on November 08, 2009, 03:31:38 PM

I and a group of other business owners have been planning a cluster in the neighborhood.  A cluster, I might add that has become less likely because of the posted attitudes of you and your fellow travellers. The rest of them arent as familiar with the neigborhood as I am, and arent aware of how few people you guys represent.

Well I don't get this post. I and my neighbors who live in Springfield are basically called a$$holes for having an opinion about what we would like to have or not have in our neighborhood but you and a group of business owners are planning a cluster. Wow, who knew. How stupid of us to worry about our neighborhood when some business owners and non residents have it all figured out.

Quote from: Debbie Thompson on November 08, 2009, 10:37:28 PM

Quote from: strider on November 07, 2009, 03:15:45 PM
I went to this meeting intending not to talk but to listen.  To listen to what Louise and Company had to say.  To listen to what the residents had to say.

Yep, and I learned a couple of things… .

Strider, I've only included part of your quote, because this is the part I wish to address. When the question of renting rooms to proton patients first came up, and someone questioned whether or not that was legal, Claude Moulton very clearly and very quickly made the point that, if it was determined that wasn't legal, then that couldn't be allowed either. That we have to be fair and treat everyone the same.  There were a couple of comments made later that sounded otherwise, and I didn't like those either because of the way they were presented, but it was my impression that almost everyone in the room felt as Claude did...the same rules should apply to everyone.   The President of SPAR said that as soon as the question of the proton patients came up. 

The president of SPAR Council also said FIRST that as the patients from the proton institute probably wouldn’t cause any problems, then renting to them (as we are talking about an illegal rooming house here) illegally wouldn’t be a problem.  He waffled a bit once he saw the reaction it got from some in the room.  Gerry Troy also agreed and so did a few others.  Claude’s first reaction was, hey, that’s OK because those are nice people.  While I may be paraphrasing a bit, I didn’t make this up, it is simply a fact.  So, I can justify my statement: Proton patients are much better people than most of us who live and work in Springfield (in the minds of some residents of Springfield) and if you run an illegal rooming house but rent to proton patients, it’s probably OK (in the opinion of some residents of Springfield) - as being accurate.

I am not the only one who got that impression . Others made statements about it at the meeting. Others have posted about it here. 

Springfield Girl,

yes, the messiah and great leader of the "true" springfield has a plan for us all, didn't you know?

only certain people are allowed to have opinions about businesses in thier neighborhoods....and if they should try to act on thier shared opinions with fellow residents, well.....you clearly don't know what you are talking about and are a hinderence to all that is good.

you read the manifesto, right?

=P

How silly of me to try and inject some reason and common sense into the discussion. <head slap> That isn't the way I remember it, but I won't argue further with you, Strider.  The way I remember it is that later in the discussion, Claude made that comment after Gerry said what he did.  I could be wrong, but that's the way I remember it. As I said, I didn't agree with what Gerry said. I thought the same as Claude...fair is fair, treat all alike. I thought (and this is my opinion only) that Claude made an ill-advised comment about the proton patients being "OK" after he had established his thoughts on fairness.  That said, I won't argue further on this point.

Just received the SPAR Weekly Update and it states

"The petition that was at last night’s Community Meeting WILL NOT be used. Petitions will be available to be signed at a later date."

I didn't see it that way at all. I was totally caught off guard when the proton beam patients were brought up. I'm sure others were also, so it took a little while for the info to sink in. I think the concensus in the room was that everyone should be treated the same and that an illegal rooming house is an illegal rooming house no matter who the people renting rooms are.